Sithism

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23 Jul 2019 01:52 #340582 by Phoenix Vidensia
Replied by Phoenix Vidensia on topic Sithism

VixensVengeance wrote:

Kobos wrote: So I, ask for little context from you Vixen. And I will also ask you then not how far you are willing to go, but what freedom you give up for a flash in the pan of "freedom" or what sounds like extreme passion without discipline.

Much Love, Respect, and Peace,
Kobos


You have meandered here a bit with several sentences that seem to make little sense so I'm not exactly sure what you are asking here, but if I'm following correctly the answer to your question of context is really one of morality and how that defines freedom. The thought was posed that mass murder would not be a Sith condoned undertaking. But that implies a universal moral standard that I do not believe a Sith would ever adopt because it implies an absolute ethical boundary that would ultimately limit the individual. In effect one becomes a slave to that standard. It is a chain, binding the individual sith, that needs to be broken.


Seems a misunderstanding occurred. Likely from my prior need to step lightly regarding certain topics. To be clear, I excluded mass murder for sake of sensitivities and practicality. Keeping this in context, I find mass murder to be impractical to include if, for example, I was to write out Sith philosophy for the real world. I'm sure some would find it titillating but that doesn't speak for today's sugar glass generation.

... Meh ...
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23 Jul 2019 02:00 #340583 by Phoenix Vidensia
Replied by Phoenix Vidensia on topic Sithism

Kelrax Lorcken wrote: *sigh* I'm probably going to regret this, later, BUT, I have my own speculation on the "context" being sought out.
Not the context of your own statements or questions, but of the inciting subject itself: killing.
You're reference to the xenomorphs seems better suited as contrast rather than comparison.
The xenomorphs kill indiscriminately, and opportunistically; it's really all they do, towards a singular goal of spreading as far as possible. It's pure instinct for such creatures, no passion, it's just what they do.
The Sith of Lore were never like this, they were certainly willing to kill in the pursuit of their goals, but only if if they thought it actually would further their goals, and killing in and of itself was never a goal- it's too conspicuous. Sith have a sense of restraint, and were depicted as ultimately pursuing power, and a willingness to kill on it's own doesn't necessarily further such a goal, nevermind serve it.
So, it is my speculation that the context is dependant on the WHY of it.
I don't know enough about real world Sithism, but I imagine many wouldn't endorse killing for similar reasons to a Satanists- they're all about personal freedom and empowerment, and, well, someone can't pursue those things if some jerk decided they'd be more powerful simply for killing them.


I think you just reinforced VV's point that mass murder isn't outside of the wheel house of a Sith. In other words, if it serves them, it's an option.

As for Satanists, they are diverse and so is their take on Satanism. While I can't speak for all of them, I can certainly speak of those I have met through my life. Not one of them actually followed the philosophies they claimed to have embodied.

... Meh ...
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23 Jul 2019 04:42 #340584 by Kelrax Lorcken
Replied by Kelrax Lorcken on topic Sithism

Tempest Nox wrote:

Kelrax Lorcken wrote: *sigh* I'm probably going to regret this, later, BUT, I have my own speculation on the "context" being sought out.
Not the context of your own statements or questions, but of the inciting subject itself: killing.
You're reference to the xenomorphs seems better suited as contrast rather than comparison.
The xenomorphs kill indiscriminately, and opportunistically; it's really all they do, towards a singular goal of spreading as far as possible. It's pure instinct for such creatures, no passion, it's just what they do.
The Sith of Lore were never like this, they were certainly willing to kill in the pursuit of their goals, but only if if they thought it actually would further their goals, and killing in and of itself was never a goal- it's too conspicuous. Sith have a sense of restraint, and were depicted as ultimately pursuing power, and a willingness to kill on it's own doesn't necessarily further such a goal, nevermind serve it.
So, it is my speculation that the context is dependant on the WHY of it.
I don't know enough about real world Sithism, but I imagine many wouldn't endorse killing for similar reasons to a Satanists- they're all about personal freedom and empowerment, and, well, someone can't pursue those things if some jerk decided they'd be more powerful simply for killing them.


I think you just reinforced VV's point that mass murder isn't outside of the wheel house of a Sith. In other words, if it serves them, it's an option.

As for Satanists, they are diverse and so is their take on Satanism. While I can't speak for all of them, I can certainly speak of those I have met through my life. Not one of them actually followed the philosophies they claimed to have embodied.


Within the lore, sure.

I was speculating, mostly, in the interest of being helpful to the conversation, but if I'm not, I'd be happier to just go ignored, thank you.

Kelrax "Stormcaller" Lorcken, Jedi Navigator
May The Force Guide You
www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/47-Jo...-stormcaller?start=0
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23 Jul 2019 05:09 #340585 by VixensVengeance aka Kyrin Wyldstar

Kelrax Lorcken wrote: Within the lore, sure.


Not one of us has ever mentioned anything about lore. I'm curious why jedi are so fascinated about a fantasy realm to the point you keep projecting it onto us?

Solve' et coagula
Non serviam

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23 Jul 2019 12:06 #340586 by Kobos
Replied by Kobos on topic Sithism

Tempest Nox wrote: Immediate gratification. Delayed gratification. Gradual gratification. Is one better than the other for all individuals?


IMHO there is no general standard of what is good for all individuals, gratification, is a particularly tricky one though. Gratification easily becomes a like a drug which is where I would lean away from instant gratification. Then again, I just got done micro-waving a breakfast sandwich so as I said there is no norm for it.

Vixen, most Jedi point to lore because it is assumed when one calls them self a Sith, that the lore had something to do with the individual regarding that myth as a fundamental origin of their ideology. So then many will look at that myth/lore to understand someones view point, is that not the idea of the label itself? You are correct I did apply a moral standard, I suppose no matter how I try, I see mass-murder as fundamentally wrong so no matter how I try to look at it unbiased it is difficult to relate it anyway because of my internal morality.

I would say mass murder is outside the wheel house without intent of a larger goal for it's reasoning at least regarding Sithism irl. However, with out that intent I just fail to see a purpose for making the effort. But, that furthers the point of view Tempest, Chaos and myself are making that it is impractical.

Tempest, If I had a dollar for every Satanist I met back when I was busy down in the mosh pits of the 90's/early 2000's punk scene who is now a Christian when they had kids or dropped that label the minute it stopped serving their need to be edgy I would be a wealthy man. Labels and asserted identities in most cases only can be used as a definition to help someone relate to another (which I believe people have forgotten as the main purpose for them). Interestingly, I find many people's inability to understand or shift from their individual label they have applied to themselves closely aligned/related to the imagined sugar coated happy land that many of this generation believe exists or worse yet want enforced.

Thank you both for the clarification, I need to think on this a bit to have a better formulated response. Particularly to you Vixen on the topic at hand, I do however, appreciate the banter.

Much Love, Respect and Peace,
Kobos

Fighting what you cannot see, will only lead you to lash out with violence towards everyone. Know your enemy, and you may find yourself a friend.

You can act real rude and totally removed
And I can act like an imbecile- Men without hats

Training Masters: Carlos.Martinez3 and JLSpinner
TB:Nakis
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23 Jul 2019 17:47 #340588 by VixensVengeance aka Kyrin Wyldstar

Kobos wrote:
I would say mass murder is outside the wheel house without intent of a larger goal for it's reasoning at least regarding Sithism irl. However, with out that intent I just fail to see a purpose for making the effort.
Kobos


Why do you need to find a purpose? Why not just murder for the sake of murder? Its not reasonable or practical but when artificial concepts of morality are shed the purity of the concept becomes one of beauty. And just like any work of similar measure, needs no external justification for its creation. As Springsteen says, there is just a meanness in this world... how do you rationalize that?



Solve' et coagula
Non serviam
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23 Jul 2019 18:33 #340590 by Phoenix Vidensia
Replied by Phoenix Vidensia on topic Sithism

VixensVengeance wrote:

Kobos wrote:
I would say mass murder is outside the wheel house without intent of a larger goal for it's reasoning at least regarding Sithism irl. However, with out that intent I just fail to see a purpose for making the effort.
Kobos


Why do you need to find a purpose? Why not just murder for the sake of murder? Its not reasonable or practical but when artificial concepts of morality are shed the purity of the concept becomes one of beauty. And just like any work of similar measure, needs no external justification for its creation. As Springsteen says, there is just a meanness in this world... how do you rationalize that?



Such a thing can be and often is an expression of power. If that is the goal, to experience such power for the sake of itself, it ceases to be impractical.

... Meh ...
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23 Jul 2019 21:00 #340594 by Kobos
Replied by Kobos on topic Sithism

VixensVengeance wrote:
Why do you need to find a purpose? Why not just murder for the sake of murder? Its not reasonable or practical but when artificial concepts of morality are shed the purity of the concept becomes one of beauty. And just like any work of similar measure, needs no external justification for its creation. As Springsteen says, there is just a meanness in this world... how do you rationalize that?


Murder the term itself implies purpose, I know I am pulling hairs here so anyways back to killing and for that matter any action. There is always purpose whether the actor is aware of it or not. In most cases this primary purpose is in fact free of morals.

I don't rationalize that there is meanness in the world, I accept it because it is a fundamental truth. So then I have to ask in reply, what is meanness? Is it not just actions/events I disagree with based upon my perspective of the world? Does meanness need be a moral judgement?

This is a good conversation thank you!

Much Love, Respect, and Peace,
Kobos

Fighting what you cannot see, will only lead you to lash out with violence towards everyone. Know your enemy, and you may find yourself a friend.

You can act real rude and totally removed
And I can act like an imbecile- Men without hats

Training Masters: Carlos.Martinez3 and JLSpinner
TB:Nakis

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23 Jul 2019 21:20 #340596 by VixensVengeance aka Kyrin Wyldstar
You are starting to get it kobos. Moral paradigm in any specific form is not a part of the sith path. Each individual sith decides what they are willing to do. When conflict is encountered (meanness not agreed with) it becomes a matter of wills, not of morals. What do you want and how far are you willing to go to get that? This is an expression of not only will but power. Do you have the power to effect your will and the strength to carry through. This is true whether you are confronted by a killer or you find yourself in competition for that promotion at work.

Solve' et coagula
Non serviam
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23 Jul 2019 21:52 #340597 by Kelrax Lorcken
Replied by Kelrax Lorcken on topic Sithism

VixensVengeance wrote: You are starting to get it kobos. Moral paradigm in any specific form is not a part of the sith path. Each individual sith decides what they are willing to do. When conflict is encountered (meanness not agreed with) it becomes a matter of wills, not of morals. What do you want and how far are you willing to go to get that? This is an expression of not only will but power. Do you have the power to effect your will and the strength to carry through. This is true whether you are confronted by a killer or you find yourself in competition for that promotion at work.

Now, this? This I would not have argued with. I don't subscribe to this interpretation, but I get it, and it's far cry from the minefield of "I just want to be allowed to kill people" that earlier posts imply.

I understand you have an appreciation for predators? I magine that fits into your path, in some way?

Kelrax "Stormcaller" Lorcken, Jedi Navigator
May The Force Guide You
www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/47-Jo...-stormcaller?start=0
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