Sithism

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23 Jul 2019 22:05 - 23 Jul 2019 22:09 #340598 by Proteus
Replied by Proteus on topic Sithism
Just wanted to share my thoughts on sithism in general here if I may.

As far as I understand, sithism concerns itself with passion, emotion, strength, power, etc.

Each of these kinds of experiences are derived from the lower, primitive portion of the brain driven by the amygdala, responsible for emotion, also responsible for all basic survival functions. Unlike the the neocortex, it is not designed for thinking but reaction.

In many parts of Asia, people train themselves to take on an extremely docile lifestyle. However, a lot of the undisciplined population can be shockingly brutal to itself. This is one of the reasons why the disciplines of martial arts, philosophies/religions of buddhism, confucism, and taoism were adopted - to compensate and introduce an emotional balance to their societies.

My impression of the reason for sithism to exist, is similar in my eyes, albeit the other way around. If one adopts a view that promotes more emotional outlooks, it is often because that is what the individual feels they need (a spiritual / philosophical self justification to exercise that part of their psychology to bring about an equilibrium somewhere). Perhaps it is adopted so that (quite basically speaking) one's sense of self-survival (in what ever forms) is reinforced?

Jedi, on the other hand are of the opposite intention: to shrink one's primitive brain and reinforce the neocortex of rational thought over reactive emotion, for just the same reason of equilibrium.

Just my take on it. :)

It seems that I know that I know.
What I would like to see is the 'I' that knows me when I know that I know that I know.
- Alan Watts
Last edit: 23 Jul 2019 22:09 by Proteus.
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23 Jul 2019 22:08 #340599 by Kobos
Replied by Kobos on topic Sithism

VixensVengeance wrote: You are starting to get it kobos. Moral paradigm in any specific form is not a part of the sith path. Each individual sith decides what they are willing to do. When conflict is encountered (meanness not agreed with) it becomes a matter of wills, not of morals. What do you want and how far are you willing to go to get that? This is an expression of not only will but power. Do you have the power to effect your will and the strength to carry through. This is true whether you are confronted by a killer or you find yourself in competition for that promotion at work.


I am not sure this is by any means only fundamentally a Sith code idea, this in general is a natural instinct. In any situation one has to ask themselves how far thy are willing to go.

Allow me some room here, I use martial arts a lot in metaphor. I spar competitively, I enjoy the conflict, it is both a show will and power in the purest sense. I always in the course of a fight ask how far am I willing to go to win this. Now where the Jedi ideology flows into me here is that, I do not particularly like injuring people. I do not see that as the purpose of the fight. However, it has happened and I have done it intentionally. In this particular fight I was down significantly in points, I found myself pitted against someone with considerably longer reach making it more difficult to both land and block strikes. Towards the final round during one of the breaks my coach literally asked how far I was willing to go. Well, I like winning, so the strategy became lure in to within my reach and shoot kicks to the head for the 1 in 25ish chance that one lands with enough force to draw blood or end the fight. In that moment I made that decision consciously to strike at the head with full power and intent to injure with out a moral imperative only a purpose. I ended up taking a few hard hits to get the opponent into range and then landed several hard kicks to my opponents head. The second time I landed one it put him on the mat and ended the fight. Now it wasn't until after the initial passing of the "I just whooped you" feeling passed, that I made it a point to check on my opponent to ensure his safety (bringing back my own morality to the situation). Luckily, there was no major lasting injury, just standard concussion protocol.

Point of the story though is this, there was no moral imperative within that actual decision at the time it was made, purpose, absolutely. However, I applied my personal morality to it afterword. Now, I treat fighting with high level of manners, I see that as part of the art. Humility and respect make it what it is to me. I always thank my opponents even when I lose. I have had people taunt after fights and like "meanness" I just accept that there are folks out there like that. During the fight they also have no moral imperative (unless you include will to win but I see that as a simple tap into raw instinct refined through practice), it is only after that moral imperative can be assigned.

This is not to say that a moral imperative cannot be assigned before someone acts (which can be both a positive or horrible thing), however, that is only the reality of the acting individual. Morality of an action will often be assigned by others post action, meaning morality is fluid withing the system of society. However, I would assert that purpose is always present in the action other wise what forces are at play to break inaction?

Let me know if I need to clarify, I was trying to get some stuff done while writing this out.

Much Love, Respect and Peace,
Kobos

Fighting what you cannot see, will only lead you to lash out with violence towards everyone. Know your enemy, and you may find yourself a friend.

You can act real rude and totally removed
And I can act like an imbecile- Men without hats

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23 Jul 2019 23:53 #340601 by VixensVengeance aka Kyrin Wyldstar

Kobos wrote: In that moment I made that decision consciously to strike at the head with full power and intent to injure with out a moral imperative only a purpose.
Kobos


Kobos, do you feel that as a Jedi is it acceptable behaviour to set aside you morality based on the situation to give yourself an advantage? Did you violate any rules or maybe the spirit of the rules? Do you feel it was justified to set out to injure an individual in an otherwise friendly competition just so you could win the match? Would you still do that in a competition today?

Solve' et coagula
Non serviam
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24 Jul 2019 01:46 - 24 Jul 2019 01:56 #340604 by Kobos
Replied by Kobos on topic Sithism
1. Yes and No, I am a Jedi but I am also a human, it is never as black and white as setting aside morality. As I said it can shift.

2. No, I did not break the rules or spirit of the competition, only my own ideal of that spirit (I am not a particular fan of hurting others, happened to be quite good at it when I was younger).

3. Honestly, I don't know if it was justified, it was an in the moment decision in hindsight, a response toward lower instinct, I say no it probably wasn't justified but it happened. Is war justified? Or is it simply something that sometimes just has to happen?

4.I do not unless it becomes a matter of self defense. I.E. I will not take endless kicks at my head with out a measured response.

Just because I follow Jedi ideals and hold the code of conduct as something to try and live by does not place me on a pedestal where I am some saint. It means I try to act without malice, subversion and with authentic honesty but some times shitty things happen at my hand. I still do act in ways to improve the self, only my long game is to try and benefit the most people I can in the ways I can.

There is an interesting interaction in Knights of the Old Republic 2 that explains a scenario as such. Give the beggar money, but what if that beggar flaunts that money and is then mugged or worse for it? Does that make me the person who provided that money the cause of the evil which befell the beggar?

It makes on consider what is the right action to help as many as possible truly? Do you as a Sith consider benevolence as non-adherence to your code when it benefits you (possibly meaning gain for many besides you)? Is the meat of the Sith code to you about burning the world down or gaining your own power and freedom from systems you see as oppression?

Much Love, Respect and Peace,
Kobos

Fighting what you cannot see, will only lead you to lash out with violence towards everyone. Know your enemy, and you may find yourself a friend.

You can act real rude and totally removed
And I can act like an imbecile- Men without hats

Training Masters: Carlos.Martinez3 and JLSpinner
TB:Nakis
Last edit: 24 Jul 2019 01:56 by Kobos.
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24 Jul 2019 02:15 #340606 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic Sithism

VixensVengeance wrote: You are starting to get it kobos. Moral paradigm in any specific form is not a part of the sith path. Each individual sith decides what they are willing to do. When conflict is encountered (meanness not agreed with) it becomes a matter of wills, not of morals. What do you want and how far are you willing to go to get that? This is an expression of not only will but power. Do you have the power to effect your will and the strength to carry through. This is true whether you are confronted by a killer or you find yourself in competition for that promotion at work.


I'm not sure Jedi are limited by morals anymore then Sith, rather the morals just exist to bound causality for common activity in a particular society. The pretense Sith operate outside of societies to justify an argument of no moral consideration, would only make sense to me if it were a criminal code, or limited to simple activity. The later would seem to make it less a life path, and more a protocol of self identity. So as a path of self (which it would be), wouldn't it find itself missing out on the benefits of wider interactions beyond self, or relegated to crime for matching progress?

Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
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24 Jul 2019 22:27 #340616 by VixensVengeance aka Kyrin Wyldstar

Kobos wrote: There is an interesting interaction in Knights of the Old Republic 2 that explains a scenario as such. Give the beggar money, but what if that beggar flaunts that money and is then mugged or worse for it? Does that make me the person who provided that money the cause of the evil which befell the beggar?

It makes on consider what is the right action to help as many as possible truly? Do you as a Sith consider benevolence as non-adherence to your code when it benefits you (possibly meaning gain for many besides you)? Is the meat of the Sith code to you about burning the world down or gaining your own power and freedom from systems you see as oppression?


From my point of view (and I would say most Sith) there is no point to consider. If I gave an individual money and he flaunted it and got mugged, that is not my fault. That is the beggars fault and I take no responsibility for that. In effect he was responsible for, or caused the “evil”, that befell him. Although I, as a Sith, I would never use the word evil. I don’t believe in the concept.

But let’s play with this a bit. What if the mugger desperately needed that money to get medicine for his sick child? Would it still be evil to you? Let’s take it one step further. What if the mugger used the money to buy booze for himself? I would think you would call that evil, however I would not. I would call that simply an expression of power. The beggar gave his power away by being foolish and flaunting what he had. He was weak and exceeded his means to protect what he had gained. This is the way of all nature.

I, as a Sith, don't have the ability to speak for all "The Sith" as I believe a Jedi can speak for most or all "The Jedi". From what I understand, Jedi have more of a unified temperament in their approach. There are specific universal ideas that all Jedi seem to embrace. Those ideas include the concept that all life is connected, there exists some concept of a unifying dynamism called "The Force", the striving for self-improvement, a foremost mission of service to others and environment, and certain universal absolutes in morality like believing Rape or Murder is always wrong.

The differences I generally see in Jedi vs Sith mentality is that while Jedi cling to this common core thesis bound by a unifying doctrine, the Sith do not. Some Sith may follow some of the components I mentioned above while others will not. What unifies the Sith Mentality is the concept of the individual, the pursuit of that individuals passion and the shedding (freeing of chains) of systems of control - i.e. the pursuit of freedom.

Your pursuit of self-improvement is, generally speaking, a primary goal and to achieve that you enact specific action. For me the primary goal is not self-improvement, it is to enact that specific action (pursuit of my passion) and the self-improvement simply becomes a consequence of that. I see that Jedi seek to improve the world around them by minimizing those undesirable “dark parts” in the belief that this will elevate all to a higher place. But I, as a Sith, seek to integrate and embrace those dark parts in the pursuit of becoming more whole.

I see that Jedi desire to establish a control on their emotion, which they consider a (if not thee) source of evil. As a Sith I want to embrace those emotions and let them run wild, because they are my source of power! And through my power I can do anything. I can be free. Jedi feel the force guides them in their endeavors and they allow themselves to be taken by its will and directed accordingly. I, as a Sith, will not allow that. Instead my goal is to interrupt that flow, corrupt it, redirect it and bend it to my will.

Would you agree with any of this?

Solve' et coagula
Non serviam
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25 Jul 2019 01:25 #340622 by Kobos
Replied by Kobos on topic Sithism

VixensVengeance wrote: From my point of view (and I would say most Sith) there is no point to consider. If I gave an individual money and he flaunted it and got mugged, that is not my fault. That is the beggars fault and I take no responsibility for that. In effect he was responsible for, or caused the “evil”, that befell him. Although I, as a Sith, I would never use the word evil. I don’t believe in the concept.

I will say I do believe in evil, if only because I believe in good and there is no concept without it's opposite.

But let’s play with this a bit. What if the mugger desperately needed that money to get medicine for his sick child? Would it still be evil to you? Let’s take it one step further. What if the mugger used the money to buy booze for himself? I would think you would call that evil, however I would not. I would call that simply an expression of power. The beggar gave his power away by being foolish and flaunting what he had. He was weak and exceeded his means to protect what he had gained. This is the way of all nature.

I actually agree with you 100% here it is nature. Also, morally as soon as I separate myself from that cash, it is no longer mine so what the beggar does is on him. And to be honest depending on the situation of the beggar I may condone the purchase of liquor, ever seen an addict/alcoholic going dry on the street. Not a pretty sight nor an easy struggle.

I, as a Sith, don't have the ability to speak for all "The Sith" as I believe a Jedi can speak for most or all "The Jedi". From what I understand, Jedi have more of a unified temperament in their approach. There are specific universal ideas that all Jedi seem to embrace. Those ideas include the concept that all life is connected, there exists some concept of a unifying dynamism called "The Force", the striving for self-improvement, a foremost mission of service to others and environment, and certain universal absolutes in morality like believing Rape or Murder is always wrong.

I do not believe one Jedi is able to speak for all, though we all tend to share a similar interpretation of our own code. Each practices and see's things differently. Though I would say Jedi do tend to place a note on service within their beliefs. You got me on the moral absolutes, at least those 2 because well yea, I don't really see Rape as acceptable ever, and Murder can have grey areas but if it lacks any justification which are most murders(self defense, defense of a loved one from impending death ect.)

The differences I generally see in Jedi vs Sith mentality is that while Jedi cling to this common core thesis bound by a unifying doctrine, the Sith do not. Some Sith may follow some of the components I mentioned above while others will not. What unifies the Sith Mentality is the concept of the individual, the pursuit of that individuals passion and the shedding (freeing of chains) of systems of control - i.e. the pursuit of freedom.

I think you misinterpret the Jedi a bit here. A lot of the realist Jedi teachings are in fact understanding and building the individual which probably can't speak for everyone, takes a similar form in reality. Same means different ends.

Your pursuit of self-improvement is, generally speaking, a primary goal and to achieve that you enact specific action. For me the primary goal is not self-improvement, it is to enact that specific action (pursuit of my passion) and the self-improvement simply becomes a consequence of that. I see that Jedi seek to improve the world around them by minimizing those undesirable “dark parts” in the belief that this will elevate all to a higher place. But I, as a Sith, seek to integrate and embrace those dark parts in the pursuit of becoming more whole.

So, I disagree with the statement that Jedi seek to minimize those dark parts. Again this is just in my practice, I am not capable of suppressing those dark parts the only thing I can in fact do and one of the reasons I have improved myself is that I can work on creating more "light". Like I said though no matter how much I improve myself I am not likely to organize a solution to murder, rape and desolation. Maybe bring relief to few that suffer because but a drop in the bucket. It still counts but has little to do with eliminating the dark.

I see that Jedi desire to establish a control on their emotion, which they consider a (if not thee) source of evil. As a Sith I want to embrace those emotions and let them run wild, because they are my source of power! And through my power I can do anything. I can be free. Jedi feel the force guides them in their endeavors and they allow themselves to be taken by its will and directed accordingly. I, as a Sith, will not allow that. Instead my goal is to interrupt that flow, corrupt it, redirect it and bend it to my will.

So again I in no way speak for other Jedi, but in my opinion you are wrong with the consideration of emotion. Emotions are neither good nor evil, they are only the source of what you let them be. I as a Jedi seek to control mine in a way that allows me to feel, harness, but not blind myself with them. Therefore, I see them as something that requires control to be used properly. I am a believer not that the Force is something I can flow through or in anyway control, it just kind of exists and us with it.(that is just my personal feeling).

Would you agree with any of this?


Sorry to respond this way it was just a way easier way of replying to what you had laid out for me

I still have to ask. If in the act of growing your power it inflates others, do you see that as Sithism. What if it elevates someone more than it inflates you yourself?

Much Love, Respect and Peace,
Kobos

Fighting what you cannot see, will only lead you to lash out with violence towards everyone. Know your enemy, and you may find yourself a friend.

You can act real rude and totally removed
And I can act like an imbecile- Men without hats

Training Masters: Carlos.Martinez3 and JLSpinner
TB:Nakis

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25 Jul 2019 21:38 - 25 Jul 2019 22:12 #340631 by VixensVengeance aka Kyrin Wyldstar

Kobos wrote: I will say I do believe in evil, if only because I believe in good and there is no concept without it's opposite.

You got me on the moral absolutes, at least those 2 because well yea, I don't really see Rape as acceptable ever, and Murder can have grey areas but if it lacks any justification which are most murders(self defense, defense of a loved one from impending death ect.)


So, I disagree with the statement that Jedi seek to minimize those dark parts. Again this is just in my practice, I am not capable of suppressing those dark parts the only thing I can in fact do and one of the reasons I have improved myself is that I can work on creating more "light".


So Kobos, Im finding an inconsistency in these statements. First you state you believe in a dichotomy of opposites (good vs evil – as an example). One can’t exist without the other. Then you state that you believe in absolutes. Meaning to me that you believe there is an absolute evil and an absolute good. (There can be no good in an absolute evil and visa versa - Implying the act of rape would be a perfect evil with no redeeming quality as an example). What this implies to me is that once you achieve a perfect good or a perfect evil you can proceed no deeper. This would mean the nuance of infinitely good or infinitely evil does not exist for you so I must conclude you believe there is a finite amount of good or evil in the world. Then you state that your mission as a Jedi is not to minimize dark (evil) but to create “more light” (good). But that makes no sense to me because if there is a maximum amount of good or evil in this world, by creating more light you, by definition, must also be lessening the dark.






Kobos wrote: Emotions are neither good nor evil, they are only the source of what you let them be. I as a Jedi seek to control mine in a way that allows me to feel, harness, but not blind myself with them. Therefore, I see them as something that requires control to be used properly. I am a believer not that the Force is something I can flow through or in anyway control, it just kind of exists and us with it.(that is just my personal feeling).


Yes I agree that emotions are neither good nor evil. This is beyond the fact that I do not accept the dichotomy of opposites as well. Even if I believed good and evil do exist, I would still not characterize emotions as one or the other. It’s how they are used that creates the difference in my life.

The problem I see here begins with the use of the word “Control”. As a Sith, I do not try and control my emotions. For me it would be like owning a Kawasaki Ninja and only ever driving it 50mph. Have you ever been on a fast bike or in a fast car? Have you ever just opened it up to see what it could do? To never do this is using it for something it was never intended for. If you have done this, you know the rush of adrenaline and excitement and joy you have felt at the experience. And you know the danger and risk involved. That is the darkness calling to you. It is not something that you control. It is something that takes you and something you must surrender to in order to understand its power – That power you now have access to. Emotions are the same way. If you never let them run, how do you ever know what you are truly capable of?





Kobos wrote: I still have to ask. If in the act of growing your power it inflates others, do you see that as Sithism. What if it elevates someone more than it inflates you yourself?

Much Love, Respect and Peace,
Kobos


Yes I can see that as Sith. I can tell you that in my path, I study this worldview not for power in ways most consider a sith seeks power. It’s not about money or control of people or ability to manipulate. Those things are just tools used in the pursuit of freedom, not the goal of my passion. LOL it’s definitely not about building an empire! It’s about personal mastery of myself and my life. Although I look to certain supreme standards when I undertake my passions – for example Arnold Schwarzenegger when it comes to body building – I will probably never be famous like him because that is not my goal. Becoming an icon is not a goal, pursuing my passion without limits is my goal. That’s all.

We set artificial limits for ourselves all the time. (like having “control” of our emotion – what does that even really mean?) All they end up doing is becoming places where we can allow ourselves to quit. Sith strive to break down those barriers. Have no preconceived notions and see how far the pure emotion will carry us. Farther than I ever believed imaginable - I want to break my imagination!

Sith have families and loved ones and friends just like anyone else so if my pursuits elevate another I care about that is great. The difference I see is in how we interact with those people. A common line among Sith is the phrase “I will be your villain”. What it really means is that I will call you out if you’re messed up. I am capable of unconditional love but to me that still does not mean the person I love get to do whatever they want. If someone I love is on drugs that are killing them. I’ll call them out on it and consequences will be accepted. If I didn't love unconditionally I would not care enough to confront them and risk ending the relationship.

Compassion is a similar concept. If my grandmother is on her death bed dying of cancer, in pain and on life support. Ill pull the plug on her. It may seem cruel to some because she probably had many more days to live. But I don’t see it that way. For me the truly compassionate thing to do was let her go. It’s also the harder thing to do to let her go and free her from that life that no longer provides any quality. It is a selfish act to keep her here in pain so I can spend another day or two with her.

Morality goes the same way. What if the police came to you one day and told you your spouse or sister, or someone else incredibly close to you had possibly committed a murder. Would you lie for them or withhold information to keep them out of jail? Maybe provide an alibi? Would you risk your own freedom to help them? What if it was the other way around? What if you were going to jail, would you rat on a close friend to get immunity and stay out of Jail?

These are questions (moral dilemas) most probably can’t answer until they find themselves in the situation. They believe they know who they are and what they would do, that they have "control"... but find themselves doing just the opposite when the chips are down. As I sith I study these things and I try to discover that true self inside so I know exactly how I would react and so who I am becomes no surprise. If I am a rat then so be it. I shall be the best rat I can be.

Most people bury that dark side and pretend it does not exist and when things happen and that darkness emerges they are ashamed and disgusted by what they were capable of doing. I will never be ashamed or disgusted by anything I have done or will ever do because I know that dark side of myself that is always there and can never be eradicated. I ask you, as a Jedi, how can you know yourself in this way if you pay so little attention to that dark side?

Solve' et coagula
Non serviam
Last edit: 25 Jul 2019 22:12 by VixensVengeance aka Kyrin Wyldstar.
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25 Jul 2019 23:48 #340634 by Kobos
Replied by Kobos on topic Sithism
Interestingly enough Vixen you have accurately picked out one of the my personal traits of my Jediism that I have made my own. I do believe there is finite good and evil, it's all from the same source and it is more or less balanced and or in the fluctuations of other natural occurrences/forces (if that makes sense). As for seeing things as either good or evil it is a sliding scale that's the trick with putting the good/evil label on anything. As for bringing light and not suppressing the dark I suppose that would be a secondary effect of my actions, I wasn't thinking of, though as I said any amount of light one can bring so shall other objects project shadow.

I absolutely know what it is like to have a fast car. When I was 18 I built my Camaro z28 (I have managed to hang on to it by storing it and keeping up on maintenance , it's a 95 with a 383 pushing about 450 at the wheels and 4.10's in the rear end. Have I opened it up just to see how fast it goes, yes. When I was younger it would be occasionally on the street, now I stick to track nights. I have hit 160mph (still had about 1k rpm to redline but the road was not to smooth) on the street before and it was fun but I have to say rationally at that speed in that car a single bump not all that large could have caused a crash where I would be little more a smear, let alone if I hit someone else (my real concern).

And I agree with the last part of your statement, (your concepts of compassion ect. are spot on, they are not easy choices and some have to be made.) you really do not know how you react until the proverbial sh@t hits the fan. I think you assume too much though to say that as a Jedi I ignore the dark, quite contrary I look for it all the time, I just choose not to act on it. Also, as an individual I have lived in the darkness, as you would call it, both literally and figuratively before, like I said just wasn't a big fan.

Thank you for this conversation! BTW you got a dope bike then?

Much Love, Respect and Peace,
Kobos

Fighting what you cannot see, will only lead you to lash out with violence towards everyone. Know your enemy, and you may find yourself a friend.

You can act real rude and totally removed
And I can act like an imbecile- Men without hats

Training Masters: Carlos.Martinez3 and JLSpinner
TB:Nakis
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26 Jul 2019 16:10 #340641 by VixensVengeance aka Kyrin Wyldstar
Yes I have enjoyed the talk as well, very much. I do see a bit of cognitive dissonance in your statements about the light vs the dark. You seem to be trying to create something out of nothing by describing things as a finite sliding scale but then also qualifying that by saying the more light there is the more shadow created. It can’t work both ways. If you add to one you must subtract from the other. But that is perhaps a discussion for another time.

One more note I wanted to bring up. There is a difference between exploring the dark freely and being drug into the dark unwillingly. This is why the freeing of chains is so important to the Sith concept. If you are a slave to something, say drugs or alcohol or sex, gambling or whatever, you will experience the darkness but that is not a Sith darkness. That’s just unnecessary suffering because you are bound by chains and those chains will drag you under. The power is not yours, it is something else’s and you have surrendered to it.

Finally, yes I have a bike. Right now I have a Kawasaki Vulcan. I started on a TR90 and moved to a GPZ750 before the Vulcan. I would love to own a Ninja. All Kawasaki’s of course, lol I’m prejudice that way. My uncles raced them. Although recently my head has been turned by Harleys. I have recently moved to a place near Sturgis and that excitement has got me thinking! Lol… the possibilities are endless!

Best of luck to you in your endeavors Kobos and if you have other questions about the darkness, feel free to hit me up!

Solve' et coagula
Non serviam
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