Actual Churches?

Outsider of TOTJO, yes.

An "internet Jedi" in my opinion is someone who's identity as a Jedi just exists in the respective forums of the internet, while he/she lives a total different (non-Jedi) life besides.

In my believe, a "real Jedi" is what Star Wars shows us. It's not lightsabers, fancy robes and telekinesis (for there are also fictional Jedi who not not possess these things), but about being part of a Jedi Order, living your life as a Jedi, according to the Jedi Code, training, learning, teaching, helping. Being "a guardian of peace and justice", no matter how the individual path may look like in detail.

All other (less drastic) approaches have of course their value, but then you gotta ask yourself, if the term "Jedi" is really the correct word for it. Or as Confucius said:
"A four-edged device without four edges - what kind of four-edged device should that be?"

But back to the churches!
Yes, no hard feelings about all forms of architecture.
So I should edit my definition to:

"A church is the building housing a relgious institution..."

Better, yes. But the point's the same.
I don't agree with the concept of a "Jedi Church" (both building and institution). A "Jedi-Temple" is a place where Jedi live, train and get educated, not a place where they attend to sunday services arranged by priests.

Merriam Webster wrote: Definition of TEMPLE

1
: a building for religious practice: as
a often capitalized : either of two successive national sanctuaries in ancient Jerusalem
b : a building for Mormon sacred ordinances
c : the house of worship of Reform and some Conservative Jewish congregations
2
: a local lodge of any of various fraternal orders; also : the building housing it
3
: a place devoted to a special purpose <a temple of cuisine>

What's the difference between Church and Temple again? Apart from their predominant usage as it varies from religion to religion?

I think you are thinking with a Christian mindset. When you said here:

A church is a religious institution that provides the social administration of a religious believe and a connection between the devine and "the people" by middlemen such as priests..

what made you think that Jedi priests are anything at all like Christian or any other religion's Priests? Have you read some of our sermons? They are about self-empowerment not submitting to a higher authority

If we changed the name to 'Sunday Lecture' would that make people feel better despite the fact that nothing has changed?

Names, names, names, names, names...

Akkarin wrote: Names, names, names, names, names...

Better, yes. But the point's the same.
I don't agree with the concept of a "Jedi Church" (both building and institution). A "Jedi-Temple" is a place where Jedi live, train and get educated, not a place where they attend to sunday services arranged by priests.

Well, we call ourselves Temple of the Jedi Order, however, we also refer to ourselves as a church in other places...

As the words are synonyms of each other, then I see no harm... lol...

In my opinion we should not try to imitate religions such as Christianity in their fissured ways in order become more "serious". If we want to be Jedi, let's stick to our ideals. One Jedi Order.

One Order...

You mean like all of the Jedi of the world under one banner, right?

Well, our first division is, is this a religion?

Then, what is required to call yourself a Jedi...

And the breakdown gets bigger, and faster... lol...

It is too easy for us to disagree, and then start our own Jedi site...

All of these sites sprung up independently, ok, not all, we are a split, but many of the others grew independently...

People focus on what they choose...

And, this is where most folks, unhappy with our ways, say, ok, I'll take myself and go start my own website...

And, I am still willing to talk, and I will of course, defend my personal beliefs, which as a leader here, also happen to reflect a watery image of the Temple's...

But, it is also why the sites/temples/groups will never be under one banner...

We have no trouble adapting to the views of others, granted, dont offer something and expect it to be instantaneously taken as brilliant...

Im 42, I didnt live this long, and become a Jedi, by listening blindly, lol... And following conventionality...

People come here, and offer opinion, and thoughts, and many times, they are good thoughts, but, their reasons for "X" isnt enough to sway our opinions immediately...

But a good conversation, logically offered, is always fun...

So many say "X", and after a point or two are rebuffed, they think that we are not listening, and this is seldom the case, only the arguement is not strong enough to us...

Oh, and welcome!

I really think folks need to stop worring about words and definitions so much. As soon as you try too tightly to define or lable something you're limiting it and I think you limit yourself as well.

That's also the problem with any suggestions of unification. There are so many forms of Jediism out here, each applicable to the individual's beliefs. So any attempt at creating "only one" Order is futile and restrictive.

In my opinion it is better to offer many different approaches so that people may choose to frequent whichever institutions they resonate more with. Even then, their level of participation is up to them. Some people train here, become Clergy, attend services, etc. Others just engage in forum discussions.

And then there are people who belong to no organisation other than themselves!

Well, all priests (whether Christian or Shinto or Hindu or else) serve as middle-men between the deities and the "normal people", who do not have the means to connect to the deities themselves by lack of knowledge, skill, time ... or drugs. :blink:

Jedi need Masters to teach them, yes, but no middlemen to the Force. Huge difference. The latter inevitably leads to a dependency.

And IF this is just another name thing again, then using loaded terms in such a free manner doesn't make it easier in any case. I'm not part of the TOTJ, so I just understand these terms the way outsiders from the public would do.

Seriously, I cannot offer someone an "apple" and then I give him an orange, laughing "names, names, names, names, ..."


One Order does not mean "one opinion" or "one perspective" of course.
With "Order" I mean "Jedi Order", not "New World Order" ... :laugh:

For example whether it's a religion by definition or not can be up to debate. As the definition of religion is itself very foggy, different opinions on that matter do not contradict the existence of one single Order. Is this question important in the first place? Maybe for fiscal law I suppose...

More important is the question what makes a "Jedi", I agree. And here come the differences, yes. But (to come back to Confucius) I would insist that "Jedi" should not defined by any Jediist community, but by George Lucas' Star Wars. Period. Because the term "Jedi" not only exists in the mind of Jediists, but also in the mind of all other people who saw at least the movies of this cultural phenomenon. And they are far more in number then we are. So what a Jedi is, should be pretty clear. All else is again giving out oranges as apples. "Jedi" are not sunday church-goers in robes - they are not crooked life-forms in front of a computer screen. All quarral between our communities on that matter is vain I say.

The movie Jedi exist in a factional setting. We apply those ideals to our own reality and in doing so, much difference of opinion has occurred. That's why there are so many variations.

We (at TOTJO) offer a path that embraces Jediism as a religion. We provide services, sermons, inspiration, etc. However, we do not claim exclusivity of belief.

With many faiths, the priesthood (as you quite rightly point out) acts as middlemen and it is only through their leadership and teachings that the Divine is contacted.

We take a different route - our Ministers provide support where necessary, guidance when asked, and inspiration when needed. But we encourage everyone to seek their own truth and to find their own connection to the Force. We merely act as guides along the way - not to repeat a standardised message but to help everyone to hear their own personal message.

I also see your point about the preconceptions attached to certain terms, such as "priest" or "church" but then again, doesn't the word "Jedi" also come with a set of preconceptions?

I would rather people explore and define for themselves rather than be bound by an association imposed by others.

All these words about words...ad infinitum....they are distracting and time consuming.

What is important????

Have you been feeling as well as thinking today?

Have you studied something today?

Have you reflected on your relationship to the force today.

Have you meditated today?

Have you loved today?

Have you done a random act of kindness?

Have you, have you, have you... Dam more stinking words.

I think what's important here is the importance of words like important.