Is Trumps Boarder Wall Antithetical To Jedi Doctrine?

You are arguing both ways. :huh:

First, like I said before teaching someone how to fish also involves teaching them how to get the required materials.

So, by your own admittance blacks knew how to fish even during a time of segregation. But now they’re too poor to be taught. What happened? Were they forbidden to pass on knowledge? Did the end of segregation ruin their skills? Or is it more likely that large government programs promoted dependence on a system that ultimately enslaved them?

There were no government programs for the Irish and they seemed to come through it all okay. There are lots of government programs to subsidize the Native American way of life on reservations and most of those places I have been to are completely awful.

And then you argue that you reject the thought that blacks are ignorant. And go on about a bunch of hypothetical situations that are over simplified and do not take culture into consideration. People are basically heard animals and prefer to stay with like peoples. Hence why you get all the little communities. Take Asians for example. They, on average, have the highest grades in the country and gross the largest incomes. They can live pretty much anywhere they want. But you get what are often referred to as “little China” popping up all over the place. And as far as I’m concerned that’s great. It shows a vibrant expansion in a community and added revenue streams. And if people want to hang around like people of similar background and culture more power to them. The Chinese were not only oppressed but used almost as canon fodder during the expansion of the country. They were segregated and ostracized and yet they are doing better than just about everyone else. Where was their help in the form of government programs or being given fish instead of being allowed to fish for themselves?

If there is one thing we agree on it is that government is too big.:blink:

Culture is the key. Not color and not getting handouts. Look at the single parent rate in each community and then compare that to the social economic success rate. Family life and school success. Community and satisfaction of life in the community.

Strong family groups, especially under the nuclear family structure, produce the most successful offspring on average. The more successful people in a community the more revenue gets brought back into that community by investment via new stores, buildings and community activities. Community activities increase community support and family involvement. Many issues could and should be handled on the community level, IE support groups, community charities and religious organizations. And less dependency of federal government.

With a lack of dependency on federal government a decrees could be demanded. But as long as we blame everyone else for our issues, argue how victim any group is and don’t take responsibility for ourselves and look for the federal government for all our answers, instead of coming up with them on our own, the government will grow, our freedoms will disappear, and we will piece by piece sell ourselves back into slavery one government benefit at a time.

And that’s pretty much all I have to say on this entire argument that was originally set up to bash the president.

Fyxe wrote:

ZealotX wrote:

Fyxe wrote: oh. my. goodness

Community A is white
Community B is black
Community C Indian.

Heres my question, who the heck is paying all these salaries in community B and why cant those goofballs use their salaries to buy their community? Oh thats teaching people to fish and apparently no one in community B knows how to fish...

honestly?

because people have to use their salaries to pay bills:
mortgage/ rent
car / gas
water /electricity / natural gas
phone

these are basics that you kind of need just to have a job. These salaries often tend to be lower than salaries in Community A. So their starting with less money but still have the same basic bills.

Then you have more electives

food isn't elective but you can spend less money if you are cheap and use coupons.
cable / internet / netflix / hulu

You cant have a mortgage and still ask for a special privilege handout so you can "BUY" your community. Westli is right, your bias is so thick this conversation is meaningless.... I fully expect you to reply at this point by saying that the floor sleeping white man does not have this many bills, only the black man. these bills are a form of racism designed to keep the black man down and there is a secret white conspiracy that pays the white janitors bills, right?

I see this is flying over your head.

It doesn't matter if there are janitors in Community A who have the same bills. The Janitors of Community A cannot buy the stores and hospitals and everything else. Can they? No. And they don't need to in Community A because they already live in Community A where these things are already owned by their community. There money isn't going to another Community. When they pay their bills, that money RECIRCULATES into their own community/economy, supporting their community. When Community B pays bills that money goes to Community A because that community owns the electric companies, natural gas companies, phone companies, etc. The wealth accumulates into Community A because that is who EVERYONE is paying.

YOU are stuck on the idea that Community B cannot survive without handouts. But most of the handouts are actually going to the poor people in Community A. They also have a lot of single mothers but no one talks about them or blames their Community because their Community is wealthy. But when people compose these stereotypes they link everyone in the entire Community together and judge the entire community and if it's not doing well (as a community) then it must be their fault and that's when people like you assume that they don't know how to fish.

But even if everyone in Community B is working and everyone in Community A is working, the wealth is accumulating in Community A because that's who everyone is paying and those companies are all making a profit. So even if everyone in Community B is making enough to survive it isn't enough to buy back Community B in terms of commerce, anymore than people of the same income level in Community A can do the same. But again... no one says Community A doesn't know how to fish. And when you think about handouts do you naturally think of Community A or B?

So pay attention and understand. I'm not saying that everyone in Community B is broke. I'm not saying they can't survive. They do survive. They just don't have enough to thrive. And since they, like many in Community A, live pay check to pay check, they don't have a lot to invest and cannot compete against a community that started with wealth obtained by violence, forced free labor, etc.

When you TAKE something from someone (like land) it means you didn't pay for it. It's the five finger discount. aka "free". Do you deny this? Do you deny that Community A started out with "free" stuff? The only difference is it was taken, not given, so it cannot be called a handout (takeout?). And there were plenty of cowboys and bandits and all that. But of course when individuals in Community B take money from someone, the whole of Community B is stereotyped as "thugs", "thieves", "criminals".

And what amazes me is that after Community A collectively took what they needed, they created rules based on individual action. And when these same individual actions are confronted Community A acts like they never did anything like it. And they defend those collective actions as if it is justified because they got away with it; because it worked.

because they "won". Wes says you can't win in life, but you can sure as hell win wars and take things of extreme value from others. That's not "picking yourself up by the bootstraps", That's buying new boot straps after robbing someone else for theirs. People steal cars. That's bad. But people stole acres upon acres of valuable land. And we say... ok. Because without that, what would America be? Would there be an America? And we call it the wealthiest nation on Earth even though we're in debt more than many other countries. But when the nation is divided into communities based on RACE that's when people say Community B doesn't know how to fish. That's when they say Community B is lazy and doesn't want to work. That's when they say Community B steals. And when Community B points to any unfairness people say go back where you came from and other colorful remarks.

And so my question is, how can Community B get the same economic strength without taking it and without any "free" handouts; with their legal and legitimate pay checks alone. How can they take ownership of everything in their community so that the have their own healthy economy. I mean Community A didn't really do that but it must be possible because Community A keeps telling B that they need to learn how to fish and pick themselves up by their bootstraps. So I'm asking how you do that? One the other communities I mentioned before did it but only after receiving free stuff after WWII and their money circulates better than anyone else's. Of course they have the benefit of being part of Community A while at the same time they have a separate designation defined by their religion even though the dominant religious identity doesn't. So it's interesting.

ZealotX wrote:
And so my question is, how can Community B get the same economic strength without taking it and without any "free" handouts; with their legal and legitimate pay checks alone. How can they take ownership of everything in their community so that the have their own healthy economy. I mean Community A didn't really do that but it must be possible because Community A keeps telling B that they need to learn how to fish and pick themselves up by their bootstraps. So I'm asking how you do that?

step one - Grab them bootstraps firmly with both hands
step two - PULL

This is called taking responsibility for where your boots are and then changing that through dedication and hard work just like the rest of us did. What I see the problem here is that you were freed from slavery but you never lost the mindset of the slave. Its like a pet dog that was abandoned in the woods. No other animal is going to help it survive. It will learn to survive on its own by changing its mindset that it no longer has an owner to feed it and then through hard work it takes upon itself it will learn to thrive or it will not and it will die. You are now at this crossroad. Stop looking for your owner and instead take responsibility for where you are and learn to feed yourself. No one else has the responsibility for this but YOU.

Fyxe wrote:

ZealotX wrote:
And so my question is, how can Community B get the same economic strength without taking it and without any "free" handouts; with their legal and legitimate pay checks alone. How can they take ownership of everything in their community so that the have their own healthy economy. I mean Community A didn't really do that but it must be possible because Community A keeps telling B that they need to learn how to fish and pick themselves up by their bootstraps. So I'm asking how you do that?

step one - Grab them bootstraps firmly with both hands
step two - PULL

This is called taking responsibility for where your boots are and then changing that through dedication and hard work just like the rest of us did. What I see the problem here is that you were freed from slavery but you never lost the mindset of the slave. Its like a pet dog that was abandoned in the woods. No other animal is going to help it survive. It will learn to survive on its own by changing its mindset that it no longer has an owner to feed it and then through hard work it takes upon itself it will learn to thrive or it will not and it will die. You are now at this crossroad. Stop looking for your owner and instead take responsibility for where you are and learn to feed yourself. No one else has the responsibility for this but YOU.

You didn't answer the question. I assume because you don't know. Either that or you are confused.

And just for the record... What you said was extremely offensive.

ZealotX wrote:

Fyxe wrote:

ZealotX wrote:
And so my question is, how can Community B get the same economic strength without taking it and without any "free" handouts; with their legal and legitimate pay checks alone. How can they take ownership of everything in their community so that the have their own healthy economy. I mean Community A didn't really do that but it must be possible because Community A keeps telling B that they need to learn how to fish and pick themselves up by their bootstraps. So I'm asking how you do that?

step one - Grab them bootstraps firmly with both hands
step two - PULL

This is called taking responsibility for where your boots are and then changing that through dedication and hard work just like the rest of us did. What I see the problem here is that you were freed from slavery but you never lost the mindset of the slave. Its like a pet dog that was abandoned in the woods. No other animal is going to help it survive. It will learn to survive on its own by changing its mindset that it no longer has an owner to feed it and then through hard work it takes upon itself it will learn to thrive or it will not and it will die. You are now at this crossroad. Stop looking for your owner and instead take responsibility for where you are and learn to feed yourself. No one else has the responsibility for this but YOU.

You didn't answer the question. I assume because you don't know. Either that or you are confused.

And just for the record... What you said was extremely offensive.

Sorry dont mean to be all offensive but just revealer of the truth. you have already answered your own question. you have already stated an example in detail in Tulsa of how to do it. stop looking at community A and start looking at community B. you cant define yourself according to someone else. that does not work. focus on your issue and then work the problem, just like community A did but dont use them as a measure stick. Make your own way and stop looking for the handout.

oh and yes I do deny that community A started with Free stuff. I dont even know what that means but its just really an assertion anyway. Here is another idea... maybe your sister, the doctor, can move to community A and get a good job or start a business there and then help out community B. Good idea right there!! this is an idea to do it that every single other person that is successful has done. there is no reason one cant do this is there? honestly I know these things I say may be harsh but I think they are the bite of the dog of truth!

Unfortunately, my work PC got rebooted over the weekend and lost my original response.

You and Fyxe are both getting confused between personal finance and the economy of a community. If you are addressing INDIVIDUAL black people, then you can talk to ME about THEIR personal finances. Better yet, talk to THEM. Why are you including all black people in a discussion you are making about personal finance? And I'm struggling to give you both the benefit of the doubt right now because some of your responses are coming off, to me, as racist because this is what racists say because they group everyone together and make stereotypical assumptions about the group; assumptions that are fundamentally about personal choice and responsibility. You don't want to be responsible for the choices of "white people". Why would you talk to me as if black people should be responsible for the choices of other black people?

That is racist. That's what I'm hearing right now. I'm desperately trying to hear something different.

You don't see color? Hmmmm.... sounds like you both do. That's because your brain connects a stereotype to a color and that's how you think of black people. And so when there is a discussion your brain summons that stereotype for you to argue against. This whole "teaching them how to fish nonsense" is purely a racial stereotype about black people being on welfare because you think they don't know how to make money. That is ridiculous.

It would have been nice if you actually educated yourself about Black Wall Street so that you could understand the reasons why it was successful. There was never any lack of skills or intelligence. What happened was a couple of wealthy black men came and invested in the community. Between the OWNERSHIP they had and the fact that segregation didn't allow them to freely participate in the economy of their European neighbors, that caused the money to circulate in their community. Family structure? Have you seen the nationwide divorce rate? Do you not know that many divorces are caused by financial hardships? I mean, how do you not get that the economy can have very real and personal affects on people?

What is frustrating to me is that I know you guys are smart enough to understand economics. This is why I came up with the example of Community A, B, C etc. But the question I asked in that scenario is being ignored because it seems to me like all anyone wants to talk about is personal finance. Do you even get why that's different?

How do you not understand why the personal finance of people are different from their community? How do you not understand how Native Americans: doctors, lawyers, engineers had to leave their community to make money because they had to follow the JOBS. And now that some of these communities are getting into solar and things like that, now some of their professionals are able to go back. How do you not understand how the Chinese put their money together to own businesses without having a defined geographical location of where their community lives? How do you not understand how overseas wealth gets invested through Indians coming here, into gas stations and corner stores and Dunkin Donut franchises and Hotels. These are examples of "group economics". But that is NOT the same thing as personal finance.

I asked you guys... and I don't think I was being unclear. How can Community B buy back ownership of the ECONOMY in their local community without doing the same thing that Community A did initially to get that initial ownership and wealth. If you don't know the answer then say you don't know the answer. But don't pretend that its all about personal finance when that's not how Community A did it. Community A did not get to that position by pulling itself up by any bootstraps. It took. And now that it has taken it wants to deny the effect this has on everyone else.

You can fish all you want but economics is what determines how many fish are in the water. And it doesn't mean you don't know how to fish if there's not many fish in the water. So if you don't care and you don't want to understand the economics of the situation and how it can affect personal finances, that's fine. But I'm not going to sit here and pretend with you that black people don't know how to make money and are living off welfare because that's not true in either case. And I'm not going to be put in a position to defend individuals and their personal finances in a conversation about you "not seeing color".

Do you even comprehend that everything you just said is reverse racism and white stereotyping?

ZealotX wrote: Why are you including all black people in a discussion you are making about personal finance?

I am not doing this. You are actually forcing this by falsely depicting local communities as unavoidably segregated into black, white and Indian.

ZealotX wrote: And I'm struggling to give you both the benefit of the doubt right now because some of your responses are coming off, to me, as racist because this is what racists say because they group everyone together…

Look again. Im not the one that depicted community A as white, community B as black and so on… So who exactly is grouping everyone of any one particular race? Yes, its is you.

ZealotX wrote: and make stereotypical assumptions about the group; assumptions that are fundamentally about personal choice and responsibility.

lol hmm like all white people live in rich communities and white people don’t invest in other communities and white people stole everything they have and then justified it and white people only take care of other white people. These are things YOU have said, not I.

ZealotX wrote: That is racist. That's what I'm hearing right now. I'm desperately trying to hear something different.

No its not racist but as soon as you hear the truth you resort to the race card don’t you. I and others tell you exactly how you can fix your issues in an honest and upfront manner and instead of saying those are good ideas you accuse us of attacking you because of your color.

ZealotX wrote: You don't see color? Hmmmm.... sounds like you both do. That's because your brain connects a stereotype to a color and that's how you think of black people.

And what exactly do you see? You are the one segregating us and you are the one whining when people tell you that you actually need to work to get somewhere in life no matter your color. You are the one asking for the easy solution, the short cut, the walk around to greater freedom. And when I say there are no walk arounds you cry RACIST. And you wonder why you get categorized in a specific light.

ZealotX wrote: It would have been nice if you actually educated yourself about Black Wall Street so that you could understand the reasons why it was successful. There was never any lack of skills or intelligence. What happened was a couple of wealthy black men came and invested in the community.

I absolutely love this comment. No one EVER said anything about lack of skills or intelligence. YOU just said that. Victim mentality is all I see here. The poor black man, everyone hates us, we just need to go eat worms. Then after you "self pity" yourself then you actually provide the very solution to your problem and yet seem to want to ignore it. Why is that?


I was going further but this is enough… the only racist here is you.

ZealotX

I figure that it is safe to assume that when you refer to “you and Fyxe” the “you” refers to me.

I am completely aware the differences between finances and economics. Are you? And to further my point about culture playing into finances, how many new stores do you think get opened in high crime areas? Who do you think wants to loan money for an endeavor that runs an incredibly high risk of being robbed, repeatedly? Now, I am talking about the culture of a neighborhood. If you assign color to it that is your issue to deal with. Because this happens in cultural neighborhoods of many different colors.

So let’s go over it again. People congregate. It can be for ethnic reasons but often it is because of cultural reasons. It can be monetary as well. But if one has the choice between two equal neighborhoods and one more closely meets their cultural needs I’m pretty sure we can figure which they’ll choose. If the culture of the group is conducive to community and individual support than the neighborhood tends to be economically stable and ripe for growth. If not, then nope.

Lots of things go into the culture of a neighborhood. Lots. But there are a few common factors that have been identified as indicators to one’s success. These are factors based in home life, community, education and they are universal between colors and cultures of peoples. No matter what their people’s past was.

You can either continue to beat a dead horse or learn something new and move on.

Everyone knows that bad things have happened to people throughout history. No one is denying that. Some more recent than others. Some considered worst then others. People all throughout history have been pretty shitty to one another. One reason I think using the word “humane” to describe the decent treatment of people to be ironic.