Is Trumps Boarder Wall Antithetical To Jedi Doctrine?

Tbh this is not helping , you both have made your points clear and it's kinda getting a little off topic . I know I started the whole " not seeing race in a stereotypical way " in this thread and I think you both made interesting proposals on the different views of this debate . So would you kindly agree to disagree please ?

ZealotX


You’re absolutely right. I am not entrenched in this at all.

I see no point in laying blame to an entire group of people that were not around to create the offense to a group of people that were not around to be offended. I also see no point in focusing only on one group when this has been happening to all peoples all over the world for all of history.

Rather than setting around assigning blame, how about trying to fix the actual problem. First, let’s stop referring to people by color, racist even to “whites”, and start treating them like people. Not like incapable people or children that need special privileges and rules but people just like everyone else.

Let people be accountable for their actions and choices. And expect a higher degree of civility from all/everyone.

Or… we can set around rehashing the past for one group of people, blaming everyone and everything else for their problems and not coming to any kind of actual solution.

I know which path I chose. Which will you choose? :huh:

Fyxe wrote:

ZealotX wrote:
So you want to dictate what I call myself???? WOW!

your absolutely right I will dictate what you call yourself if you want to dicate what I can and cannot use as free speech. works both ways. My job is not to make you understand just like your job is not to tell me what Im allowed to say. I will use whatever language I please up to and including negro, another valid word in the english language, just like retarded and any other word of phase I want. I know what the intent is thats enough for me. People are too easily offended these days by the stupidist of things. I mean REALLY?? I dont see color? Please...

and when, pray tell, did I tell you what you could or couldn't say? Did I not offer a SUGGESTION for an better ALTERNATIVE??

No one dictated anything. Stop being so sensitive. Suggestions can be taken or not taken at will. If you don't care how people receive your communication that's on you, dude.

Wes,

I respect you. I believe you are coming from a good place but that you misunderstand what I'm saying.

There is a level of sensitivity that some people tend to have when racial issues are discussed and they have a tendency to get defensive. Let me say this very clearly so that you understand.

I AM NOT BLAMING YOU.

Now if you say something wrong my reaction will be to correct it. And this is how I end up addressing racism and slavery in general instead of what I was trying to talk about which was ONLY the common phrase "I don't see color" and how it tends to rub black people the wrong way and how it would be better to say "I don't discriminate".

Instead of taking this suggestion because no one wants to unnecessarily offend black people by stating this, some seem to feel the need to defend their right to say whatever they want (as if my suggestion was a command) or somehow shift blame onto black people for the misunderstanding and claim they are ignorant about history.

I had this conversation with a white woman who I was seeing at the time who has a good number of black friends and I was the second one she heard it from. She did not want to be misunderstood so she simply took the advice that was given and it led to a positive discussion about racial issues. So I know this reaction isn't necessary.

I see no point in laying blame to an entire group of people that were not around to create the offense to a group of people that were not around to be offended.

Your words betray your feelings. You feel blamed but no one has or is blaming you for the past. I'm talking about the words you say in the present. One should be MINDFUL of the present and their interactions. If I'm talking about the present and you're talking about the past then how are we talking about the same thing? It's like you're using the past as a strawman to attack what I'm saying about the phrase used currently, "I don't see color". This has nothing to do with the past except for what you mean when YOU say it. Next point.

I also see no point in focusing only on one group when this has been happening to all peoples all over the world for all of history.

When a mother runs into a police station and says "I need help! My daughter is missing!" The correct response is not "well ma'am, a lot of children go missing. I don't see any point in focusing on just your kid." Do you get what I'm saying?

"You have cancer. I'm sorry." The lady looks at the doctor, hopeful. "I understand. What's our plan of attack?" The doctor looks at her, puzzled. "Plan of attack? Lady, do you know how many people have cancer? Like a lot. What kind of narcissist are you?"

Do I have to keep going? I can do this for days. Obviously, the point is that there is NO NEED TO DEFLECT. If something's wrong you don't need to deflect to other similar things. You are not personally liable or responsible. Our government is a little different. It is like a ship that has different captains. It wasn't born yesterday. When a new captain comes on board he is operating the ship and taking responsibility for its direction while under his command. But if that ship started a war before he took over, he either has to continue to fight that war or bring it to a close. He is not personally America. America is the ship. It is responsible for what it does and doesn't do. And as passengers who pay to ride on this ship we are responsible for selecting the crew and we pay for the ship and are responsible for its debts. If that ship owes money to China, we have to pay it. If that ship still owes money to China that we didn't vote for and never came into our hands, as individuals, and we die, our children and their children will have to pay China back.

We can't say "Oh but I wasn't there when my country asked for money and I would have voted no so I shouldn't have to pay anything towards the repayment of that debt!"

Nope. Sorry. You're part of this nation. You're part of a collective body. You don't get to substitute your individuality whenever you choose to invoke it. Can China blame you personally for the debt? No. Clearly you weren't there. Clearly you weren't in Congress. But what Congress did was done on our behalf, to benefit the nation. And like it or not, you benefited and you had a slight advantage over people in other countries whose countries could not borrow so much money to invest in their people and their infrastructure. Are their struggles your fault? No. But you still have to pay the debt.

So you see... it's not about blame. It's about doing the right thing. And we're not discussing solutions in this thread but we have discussed solutions before in other threads that I have been apart of. If you don't want to be called white then I wont call you white. However, that is my problem with the phrase "I don't see color". There's NOTHING WRONG with being white or black. If you think this will somehow cure racism, you're wrong. Sorry. It wont do a thing. You're well meaning. You're a good guy. That's cool. But racists don't give a crap about that because black isn't even their favorite term for black people. What those of us who aren't racists do or don't do, in discussing or ignoring race has ZERO effect on racists. So what good do you imagine it will do when non-racists are not a problem or a contributing factor to racism (except for the contribution of apathy).

If someone's mind is fertile ground for racism they're not going to be deterred by the proposed "social crime" of political incorrect racial identifiers. They pretty much hate "social justice warriors" and loath political correctness in general. The N-word is already politically incorrect. Do you think that stops them? Or does the finger wag of society actually encourage them? Look at Fyxe's response, reacting to the suggestion that "I don't see color" shouldn't be said. He response was basically, then I get to call you whatever I choose even "Negro". So that, right there, should tell you that trying to eliminate the terms white and black will not do anything against racism. You actually need to address it and have conversations with people. You have to teach children not to hate or DISCRIMINATE.

Okay everyone, let's stop saying "corona" so that the virus will go away. What? That's not how viruses work?
Corona virus isn't going to go away by us ignoring it?

Racism is a VIRAL IDEA. That idea went viral hundreds of years ago and still infects people to this day. It's not something that was just in the past. It is past, present, and future. Black people have never stopped feeling it and being offended by it. We simply adapted to it so that we are not overly sensitive to it. However, you're not going to tell us it doesn't exist and that we shouldn't call ourselves black because we're living in a "post racial society". That's not our reality and we share stories of our individual experiences so we know just how present in our society this viral idea actually is. People want to pretend black people are wrong because they don't want to believe the problem still exists. But black people are not wrong because we actually talk to each other about it instead of ignoring it and the statistics bear this out.

and start treating them like people. Not like incapable people or children that need special privileges and rules but people just like everyone else.

Yeah.... let's "start" treating them like people. I love that idea. Let's all "start" doing that. LOL But that's for recognizing that some humans aren't being treated as though they are human. But yeah... how about you fix the problem FIRST. THEN we wont need laws to try to help one group of people to survive against another. While you're at it. Let's get rid of laws about tax evasion. Instead, let's just all agree to pay our fair share of taxes. I'm feeling frisky. You feeling frisky? Let's get rid of all the laws about rape and child abuse and let's just all agree to treat our women and children the way that all women and children should be treated. And hell... we don't need no multi-million dollar border wall. Let's just all agree not to enter the country without required documents.

I'm sure the point has been understood by now. Laws protect people against those who would take the opportunity to break those laws. Since no one can prove they didn't get the job because they were black the law has to go about it a different way. It has to look at education vs unemployment and wages of both races. We can actually compare data. If we can prove that it is equally as easy for an equally qualified black person to get a job, that a white person can get, well then there's no further need for Affirmative Action, which benefits white women primarily because it wasn't aimed at only "black people" but rather "MINORITIES".

note: like many viruses, racism is able to adapt to attempts to control or eradicate it. If it was as simple as a declaration for us to "start" treating people as people then racism would have died many times over a long time ago. Unfortunately, more than that has to be done.

White women are a minority who get paid less than men. This is especially hard on black women. The cart is getting rid of what is helping these groups. The horse is what is causing these groups to need help. So why do we need to discuss the cart "before" the horse? Do you really think a congress full of mostly white men don't want to kill Affirmative Action asap? Do you think these same men haven't signed on to an equal pay for women law for years because they're waiting on everyone to up and decide to do the right thing? Do you think Democrats, after seeing it was no longer needed, would vote to keep it anyway? That's NOT the problem. The problem is WHY IS IT NEEDED IN THE FIRST PLACE? And why are companies using white women to claim they have minorities? If they are using white women as their minorities then how does this help black people? It doesn't. If a hiring manager is racist he can get the financial benefits of Affirmative Action for his company and still hire zero black people. Right?

Right?

Let people be accountable for their actions and choices. And expect a higher degree of civility from all/everyone.

you cannot be held to account without any laws. And there are tons of people who aren't civil and not interested in being civil if that means what YOU think it means they should do or not do. You can't control other people. They're gonna do what they want. It's called freedom. When someone is hurt as a result that is when the justice system steps in and seeks to compensate the "damaged" party. When someone has "damages" that doesn't mean they're feeble or incapable. It just means they're OWED. The justice system tries to recognize when something isn't fair, according to law and legal precedent. Black people aren't looking for privileges. Black people are looking for FAIRNESS and EQUALITY. Reparations is about keeping a promise of compensation for damages. Racism is not about what you call us. Truthfully, we don't really care about that as much as people think. What we care about equal rights, access, and opportunity. Racists are even exploiting the mechanism that was intended to counteract racism!

Again, racism is about power. You're not saying that. I'm saying it. But listen first before you disagree. It's just like classism. The rich do have influence over how easy it is for you to get a job if they have all the jobs because they own the companies. They may not be the hiring manager but they are the ones who control the budget. If the hiring manager is racist he has influence over how easy it is for black people to work at that company. And he doesn't have to be full blown KKK alt right neo nazi. He could just be some random guy who thinks black people are like children who aren't as smart as whites. Or maybe he buys into the stereotype about black people being lazy or criminals. This random guy is NOT going to tell you what he calls black people when he is with his friends because he's not stupid. And because he's not stupid he also knows he can hire white women as "minorities".

Racism 1 | Equality 0

That's real racism. Not calling people black or white. Real racism influences the future. Real racism represents a threat to the survival or ability for that race to thrive by making the environment hostile. Real racism plants drugs on suspects so they can go to jail. Real racism calls the cops in the hopes of punishing black people for having a BBQ at a park. These instances of racism sound petty and inconsequential until you realize that its coming from totally random, otherwise normal looking, white people; just like that hiring manager or people like Fred Trump who denied housing while indicating on applications that they were "colored". And if you aren't entrenched in it then you don't know what's going on and how because you're not in the trenches with those who are oppressed which allows you to IGNORE it all and think they're just pretending.

Or… we can set around rehashing the past for one group of people, blaming everyone and everything else for their problems and not coming to any kind of actual solution.

I know which path I chose. Which will you choose?

I don't know why people assume that I'm new to this...

https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/search?query=racism%20solutions&childforums=1&catids=5

What I also have advocated for, in the black community, is group economics and various economic solutions that do not depend on the dominant society acting fairly. The problem is that these solutions are not "integrated" solutions. It's more like, "if you don't want to play fair then I'll take my ball and go home". These solutions adapt to racism. They don't and cannot destroy it. I have a whole website dedicated to the economic solutions that I advocate, blog, FB pages, challenged ideas and ignorance from both blacks and whites on social media, participated in events, organized an event for black owned businesses, etc. I know there are people who complain about racism and don't offer or advocate for any solutions. I'm simply not one of those people so trying to change the subject to me isn't going to work either. I do my part. Right now, the part I elect to do is advising white people not to say "I don't see color" so that they can be better understood by black people; enabling better relationships because black people tend to keep most white people at arms length because they don't know if they're racist or not (this is the truth). So when you say things that make black people are either offended by or can easily misinterpret.... when the default is not to trust you... then yes, what I'm suggesting could help you have better relationships with black people

IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN HAVING BETTER RELATIONSHIPS

Better relationships = better race relations. Better race relations = less fertile ground for the viral ideas turn regular looking people into racists. Better race relations = more white people who are "conscious" of racial issues and who can therefore become allies to combat racism. Better race relations = my step kids not being told on the bus to go back to the plantation. Better race relations = my step kid not hearing "white people are better" in a pool at the YMCA or being called the n-word by a girl on his soccer team. Better communication = better relationships. Maybe you never hear talk like that. It depends a lot on where you grew up. The viral ideas of racism love ISOLATION. The more that it has to interact with actual living black people the more it has to get to know them and see that they're "not all bad".

As Jedi we believe that little steps can make a difference. So we strive to see the bigger picture but each one of us can be a brush stroke. Each one of us can take a step in the right direction until one day, someone is stepping on the moon. If you're asking yourself "what can I do?" then congratulations; you're half way there.

I think what most people fail to realize, or don’t get, is that I really don’t care to be sensitive to people’s feelings. That does not mean that I just say what I want when I want either. What that means is I try to be generally polite to everyone equally. And rather or not someone else’s feelings get hurt or their offended or whatever issue they have comes up, is solely their issue.

When I told you about how saying white is just as racist as saying black it was to offer the same point of view from a different perspective. And I offered a different cause to a commonly mistaken root to the issue. And I stand by what I said earlier, except for genetic issues of a medical nature, the only difference race gives rise to be appearance. I firmly believe that culture plays more a role in modern people’s difference issue. Now, they culture one is in may be a racist culture where the individual feels propelled to identify others by color. Or group things that have happened by color. Or peoples outcome by color. Or Lord knows what by color.

I have no idea rather you’re a guy, girl, it, attack helicopter or what other gender people identify as no days. I have no idea if you’re skin color is brown, black orange, yellow, polka dotted, stripped or transparent… to me it makes no difference. I don’t even know what your motives are for your stance.

What I do know is that I am having a written conversation with someone that claims to be talking about the present but keeps bringing up the past. What has been done cannot be undone any more than a bell can be unrung. Slavery, Jim Crow, these things were in the past. And the point I feel you missed is that this past is not unique to the US. Which was the point. Not, it happens everywhere so don’t worry about it.

Let me ask, can you change the past? I didn’t think so. So you can’t “fix” it. Or the outcome of it. But what we can do is start treating each other like we all live in this moment. Not like we’re stuck in the past and just dragging it forward. And some are. I pitty them and the miserable life they live.

You may not blame me. But those whose words you parrot do. Middle-aged, well to do, white male from the Southern US. We are responsible, or blamed for all the injustices or evils of the world. Even though I have lived a life of service to others since I was a child and continue to serve when others set online and play armchair quarterback. I don’t do it out of guilt or anything of the sort. I do it because I care. I want to help people.

And about the government. The people who make policy are voted into place. You may not have voted for them but someone did. And so when you say the government is to blame, you are blaming the people that voted them into office.

Also, we are discussing solutions in this thread. Well, at least I have offered up a few. But they have either been shot down or LOL’d at. I’m sure all the people you’re advocating for have no ability to stand up for themselves and need you to do it for them. They could never form a million man march on their own or anything like that. They need someone to brow beat others on an internet forum.

You know, it just dawned on me what are real differences are. You are advocating for a utopian idea. Never any fighting, hate, injustice and so on. Where I am just hoping to minimalize the suffering of those who suffer unjustly. I am a realist. And I believe that it is impossible to create a utopian society. Completely and irrevocably impossible for mankind to do. So I don’t bother with unrealistic ideals. I just strive for things to be better.

ZealotX wrote:

Fyxe wrote:

ZealotX wrote:
So you want to dictate what I call myself???? WOW!

your absolutely right I will dictate what you call yourself if you want to dicate what I can and cannot use as free speech. works both ways. My job is not to make you understand just like your job is not to tell me what Im allowed to say. I will use whatever language I please up to and including negro, another valid word in the english language, just like retarded and any other word of phase I want. I know what the intent is thats enough for me. People are too easily offended these days by the stupidist of things. I mean REALLY?? I dont see color? Please...

and when, pray tell, did I tell you what you could or couldn't say? Did I not offer a SUGGESTION for an better ALTERNATIVE??

No one dictated anything. Stop being so sensitive. Suggestions can be taken or not taken at will. If you don't care how people receive your communication that's on you, dude.

Yes well obviously - suggestion heard and then rejected.

ZealotX wrote:
1. reparations

African Americans were promised "40 acres and a mule" after slavery to help them get started in the American economy. When you have a few people who are broke a community the community can pool resources to help those people. Locality based taxation also doesn't inhibit the education opportunities and thus the career opportunities for those children. They all have equal opportunity to prosper. When you contrast this with many African American communities, the people are blamed for being broke as if they are lazy. In reality many people coming to this country benefit from generational wealth. Their communities have more money, therefore better schools, better opportunities. We have proven that better education does have a serious impact. My sister and I were better educated than many people we grew up with and therefore our opportunities were better. Our early education was priced out of range for most African American families; including ours. But it was subsidized by our church (not local, because they couldn't afford it either; but rather regional or national). When we went to public school after that we were more very noticeably ahead of the other kids. And how could they be struggling in school if we weren't and we were black too? It's because their public education was inferior. Because their funding was also inferior. This is just one example of how money affects a community. Thanks, in part, for that subsidy in our formative years, my sister is a doctor and I'm a web developer. My best friend grew up in public schools and went from janitorial work to grounds keeping. One isn't better than the other but one definitely pays better and the taxes go to the schools where you live and where you live determines the housing available. Not many black doctors and lawyers want to live "in the hood".

So even though some of us "make it" there is a domino effect that wealth and the lack thereof has on a community. To deny this is to deny economic reality. It actually costs more to live if you're broke because your interest rates are higher which makes things cost more. If you don't have 20% of a home loan to put down you, for example, also have to pay extra for mortgage insurance. And the value of your home may not even go up like homes in other areas because you often don't get to determine your own property value. This creates situations that are difficult to get out of. And a lot of things are not priced in respect of the poor. So every year college tuition becomes further and further out of reach unless you win a type of lottery and can get a scholarship. That's great, but these are always in limited supply so it always means that the majority will not have the same opportunities as the minority... of the minority. The smaller minority proves what the rest could do with the right investment. But people act like reparations is a hand out. It's not. It's COMPENSATION. Meanwhile, reparations were already given... to slave owners.

Almost everything you have said here is wrong. First the freedmen were given that land at one point, but it was given back by the next president, a southern sympthizer. so there is that. He may have been a dick or he may have been a visionary striving for integration, not sure. beyond that you begin to depict "communities" as segregated populations in which blacks cant participate. That is completely wrong. also education opportunities do not dictate success, that is an excuse that is not accurate. If your sister is a doctor she did that on her own, not because she went to a better preschool. At least give her that credit!! I grew up just as poor and went to public school. But I worked hard and got my degree even though I turned 18 with no money to do anything. But guess what, I went to work and I changed that. your janitor friend started out exactly where I started out. I started out sweeping floors but I spend my free time studying and learning and hustling that made the difference, not a handout from the govt.

Reparations are compensation for what exactly? this generation was never in slavery and neither does this generation own slaves as any sort of legal sort. In fact the US govt spent decades restricting the freedoms of slave owners through new legistation instead of increasing that freedom before the civil war was fought to free them. and once it was over they did a lot to help them. But how long does this have to go on? forever in your eyes it seems. Well the fact remains that it was legal at the time so even though it was not right it was also not a crime. so I see no need to pay people today for self proclaimed crimes done to ancestors. If that was the case I should sue the romans for invading my ancestors lands and enslaving them!! but it does not work that way. If you have a generational beef with what you perceive as past crimes then look up your geneology and find out who owned your ancestors whose offspring are living today and sue them. I see no reason to get the govt involved in this or to try and force me to pay you for a crime that neither one of us had anything to do with.

When I told you about how saying white is just as racist as saying black it was to offer the same point of view from a different perspective. And I offered a different cause to a commonly mistaken root to the issue.

And did I not respond by saying that I wouldn't call you white in that case? Why? Because I really and truly respect you and therefore I don't want to offend you. And if I know that something offends you and it's easy enough to avoid, I'm going to avoid it as a courtesy to you. Is there something wrong with that? If other people, who I previously would have called white, came out and said the same thing, I'd be like "wow, okay. Sorry, I didn't know so many of you felt this way" and I would cease that usage in totality. And I would ask what word should I be using as an alternative. Is European still okay? Is Caucasian okay? Let me know.

And I stand by what I said earlier, except for genetic issues of a medical nature, the only difference race gives rise to be appearance.

correction: the only difference race gives rise to, where you are concerned, or in your mind, is appearance. Race causes people to treat each other differently; hence why you said that we should "start" treating each other as people. Therefore, you already know this isn't presently the case.

I firmly believe that culture plays more a role in modern people’s difference issue.

I absolutely agree. And there is a segment/element of "white culture" that has always been against black people. This element hasn't always been dominant. However, it is often seen in political alignment to a certain party. And yes, this alignment switched around the 1920s. Still to this day, there is an element of "White culture" that thinks it is cool mock black people, wear blackface, and call the police on black people whenever possible. This element is very much hidden behind a metaphorical "border wall" designed to keep black people "in their place". You may not agree because you personally may not think this way or be personally influenced by this element and/or subculture. But it's there. We have it recorded. Groups like the KKK, skin heads, neo nazis, and the alt right, are larger and give each other a sense of protection; that they can bring these ideas out of the closet because there is power in numbers. I can't even tell you how many times I've heard "Race war" in the past few years. White supremicist activites, like the church shooting, are terrorist plans to try and start a race war. No one starts a race war unless they think they have the numbers and that they can win. The last race war was of course the civil war and still to this day we have lots of people who parade the dixie flag and erect monuments of racist southern leaders to let certain people know just how welcome they are. Again, you may not see this stuff because you're a good guy and perhaps your social circle doesn't overlap theirs. But that's why we have the Southern Poverty Law Center. If you cannot believe us, believe the reports.

note: of course there is no legal mechanism for designating domestic extremist groups as terrorists.

What I do know is that I am having a written conversation with someone that claims to be talking about the present but keeps bringing up the past.

Ah man... I would love to be making this up. I would love to live in your version of the United States where there aren't training camps for white extremists; where they're not trying to start a race war and where Chris Barker did say that the KKK has had a surge (even reported by the BBC) in its numbers since the Trump election.

The F.B.I. director, Christopher Wray, told the House Judiciary Committee this month that the agency had more than 1,000 violent extremist investigations in progress, covering all 50 states, but he resisted providing a more detailed breakdown.

He described “racially motivated violent extremism” as a “national threat priority” equal to the threat from the Islamic State.

Whether it is unique to the US or not is irrelevent. And never did I say slavery of black people is going on today and that my cousin is being forced to serve as a butler on the other side of town. What I'm talking about TODAY that is present tense in racism. Is that clear? But I was responding to someone who brought up REPARATIONS as a "black privilege". Do you not see how slavery is relevant in that context? I'm sure you probably didn't read that part. And you probably didn't read the part where I linked the economic effects of slavery and the lack of compensation and the ongoing effects of racism as an influence to the current socio-economic status of black Americans.

After I said that I responded to you saying "White is just as racist as calling someone brown, black, or yellow" with me not wanting to repeat to you everything that happened during slavery and Jim Crow because your statement came off to me as totally dismissive of what racism actually is; as if it is a disagreement over what color of the rainbow should be used to represent people. The experience of ANY group should not be reduced to a color and then only to casually say "oh let's stop saying the names of these colors". I really hope you can put yourself in my shoes to hear how that might sound.

Let me ask, can you change the past? I didn’t think so. So you can’t “fix” it. Or the outcome of it. But what we can do is start treating each other like we all live in this moment. Not like we’re stuck in the past and just dragging it forward. And some are. I pitty them and the miserable life they live.

Again... what I'm mainly talking about is RACISM which is extremely modern. And because not enough people did enough in the PAST, we still have to deal with racists TODAY. So no, you can't change the past. But you can learn a lot from it so that you do not REPEAT it. There is an element among white people (which doesn't include you since I'm not referring to you as white) that wants a repeat of the civil war; or at least, they want a race war. Go talk to them. Go lecture them about the past. Go tell them that it's not cool to hate. Go tell them SOMETHING. Because not telling them anything means that in another 100 years they'll still around and thinking that all white people share their ideas but are afraid to say so. Go tell it to them. Be a light and an ambassador for peace and harmony.

You may not blame me. But those whose words you parrot do. Middle-aged, well to do, white male from the Southern US. We are responsible, or blamed for all the injustices or evils of the world.

What words? Slavery? You feel blamed by the word slavery? If I had more time I'd find the quote where you said... nevermind here it is:

And rather or not someone else’s feelings get hurt or their offended or whatever issue they have comes up, is solely their issue.

I didn't blame you. You saw a word and felt blame. By your own logic your feelings or whatever issue they have is solely your issue. RIGHT?!?!

I mean... I disagree. I would say that "in as much as I can FORESEE someone having such a reaction" then it is on me, but if I cannot foresee it then it's on you. But that's just me and just as you can say you didn't know if I was a guy, girl, or it (which is ironic since I would think that you could at least assume I was a person and not an AI), how would I know that you were from the South? Impossible. On top of that, how would I know you were middle-aged (like me), and well to do? I respect you as far as I have read numerous posts of yours before. And I never stopped to ask you your race, gender, or SSN. So that street goes both ways. And if you react by feeling blame then you can image how a black person might feel to have their color, which represents so much more than melanin or pigment... but the shared experiences, lives lost, struggle for equal rights, 15th ammendment, Dred Scott, Brown vs Board of Education, numerous forms of music, food, and so much more... all of that... ignored by you saying "I don't see color".

See, there is what "black" means to you and what it means to us. It doesn't need to mean the same thing to you, but I would rather you TRY to see at least some of these things when you think of "black" than to seek to erase the word from history. Do you get it?

And about the government. The people who make policy are voted into place. You may not have voted for them but someone did. And so when you say the government is to blame, you are blaming the people that voted them into office.

Yes... some people do deserve blame for how they voted. Absolutely. But again... "in as much as you can FORESEE" the result of that vote. So if someone voted for Trump and didn't know that his administration would lose track of kids parents I can't blame that on even his most die hard voters. If someone voted for Trump, not knowing or believing he was a racist and that his policy ideas linked to Reagan were racially motivated, again, I CANNOT blame even the most Trumpian of Trump's voters. If someone voted for Trump as the lesser of two evils, because they thought Hillary was worse, I disagree BUT... I don't blame them for their vote. Just like I don't blame myself for voting for The Green Party candidate, Jill Stein. Again... you seem to me like a good guy. And I give everyone on this site the benefit of the doubt in general because we have higher standards as Jedi. So no... I don't blame you unless you knew and got the result you were looking for. The same would be true if you were voting for racists in the democratic party before they switched sides and became republicans. If you were voting for them BECAUSE they were racist then I blame you. If you voted for them in spite of them being racist then it is a bit grey. But if you voted not knowing they were racist then I do not blame you at all.

Also, we are discussing solutions in this thread. Well, at least I have offered up a few. But they have either been shot down or LOL’d at. I’m sure all the people you’re advocating for have no ability to stand up for themselves and need you to do it for them. They could never form a million man march on their own or anything like that. They need someone to brow beat others on an internet forum.

No, you were discussing solutions because you wanted to educate me about history as if I didn't know slavery existed in other places. I wasn't brow beating anyone. I was suggesting people stop using the PROBLEMATIC phrase "I don't see color" and replacing it (solution) with "I don't discriminate". It just happens that a couple people elected to argue against my suggestion for whatever reasons. And yes, I'm going to laugh if something is funny. And taking away a law that attempts to protect people by making them more competitive in the job market, even though said law benefits white women more because they use that title of "minority" (which goes for anything designed to benefit "minorities", white women typically benefit more than others), take it away in favor of a social effort all just "start" treating each other like humans. Sorry, but that's funny. It's funny because you seem so much like a realist but in seeking to take away Affirmative Action you cite the most unrealistic, unicorns and rainbows, we are the world, moralistic, politically correct, platitude that perhaps I've heard on race relations and I'm 41. And its not to mock you, not at all. It's to show you that this issue, and this comes from one who has been in the trenches, is far bigger than any simple solution or "can't we all just get along?" proclamation. There are people who literally want to kill people that look like me simply because of the color of their skin. And you think they're going to just agree to stop and treat everyone the same? Do you think they will be deterred by anyone "not seeing color"? I don't think so, but if you want to talk to them and see I'm all for it. You have my support. But you should also consider the fact that these people aren't trying to kill you. They might like to kill me though so it should be understandable if I'm a little more invested. And I don't blame you for that either. In fact, I'm glad you took the time to engage on this issue and I appreciate even the disagreement. It's more than most people do.

If you want to talk about some serious solutions we can do that. I just thought this would not be the right thread.

Fyxe wrote:

ZealotX wrote:
1. reparations

African Americans were promised "40 acres and a mule" after slavery to help them get started in the American economy. When you have a few people who are broke a community the community can pool resources to help those people. Locality based taxation also doesn't inhibit the education opportunities and thus the career opportunities for those children. They all have equal opportunity to prosper. When you contrast this with many African American communities, the people are blamed for being broke as if they are lazy. In reality many people coming to this country benefit from generational wealth. Their communities have more money, therefore better schools, better opportunities. We have proven that better education does have a serious impact. My sister and I were better educated than many people we grew up with and therefore our opportunities were better. Our early education was priced out of range for most African American families; including ours. But it was subsidized by our church (not local, because they couldn't afford it either; but rather regional or national). When we went to public school after that we were more very noticeably ahead of the other kids. And how could they be struggling in school if we weren't and we were black too? It's because their public education was inferior. Because their funding was also inferior. This is just one example of how money affects a community. Thanks, in part, for that subsidy in our formative years, my sister is a doctor and I'm a web developer. My best friend grew up in public schools and went from janitorial work to grounds keeping. One isn't better than the other but one definitely pays better and the taxes go to the schools where you live and where you live determines the housing available. Not many black doctors and lawyers want to live "in the hood".

So even though some of us "make it" there is a domino effect that wealth and the lack thereof has on a community. To deny this is to deny economic reality. It actually costs more to live if you're broke because your interest rates are higher which makes things cost more. If you don't have 20% of a home loan to put down you, for example, also have to pay extra for mortgage insurance. And the value of your home may not even go up like homes in other areas because you often don't get to determine your own property value. This creates situations that are difficult to get out of. And a lot of things are not priced in respect of the poor. So every year college tuition becomes further and further out of reach unless you win a type of lottery and can get a scholarship. That's great, but these are always in limited supply so it always means that the majority will not have the same opportunities as the minority... of the minority. The smaller minority proves what the rest could do with the right investment. But people act like reparations is a hand out. It's not. It's COMPENSATION. Meanwhile, reparations were already given... to slave owners.

Almost everything you have said here is wrong. First the freedmen were given that land at one point, but it was given back by the next president, a southern sympthizer. so there is that. He may have been a dick or he may have been a visionary striving for integration, not sure. beyond that you begin to depict "communities" as segregated populations in which blacks cant participate. That is completely wrong. also education opportunities do not dictate success, that is an excuse that is not accurate. If your sister is a doctor she did that on her own, not because she went to a better preschool. At least give her that credit!! I grew up just as poor and went to public school. But I worked hard and got my degree even though I turned 18 with no money to do anything. But guess what, I went to work and I changed that. your janitor friend started out exactly where I started out. I started out sweeping floors but I spend my free time studying and learning and hustling that made the difference, not a handout from the govt.

Reparations are compensation for what exactly? this generation was never in slavery and neither does this generation own slaves as any sort of legal sort. In fact the US govt spent decades restricting the freedoms of slave owners through new legistation instead of increasing that freedom before the civil war was fought to free them. and once it was over they did a lot to help them. But how long does this have to go on? forever in your eyes it seems. Well the fact remains that it was legal at the time so even though it was not right it was also not a crime. so I see no need to pay people today for self proclaimed crimes done to ancestors. If that was the case I should sue the romans for invading my ancestors lands and enslaving them!! but it does not work that way. If you have a generational beef with what you perceive as past crimes then look up your geneology and find out who owned your ancestors whose offspring are living today and sue them. I see no reason to get the govt involved in this or to try and force me to pay you for a crime that neither one of us had anything to do with.

I lack the energy to deal with this today. I'll deal with it tomorrow.

ZealotX wrote:

On one hand I think stereotypes are used by all people to all things until new information replaces it, sort of like a placeholder.

oh... you mean ignorance.

Yes! It would seem you understand my point without realizing it. Not seeing colour is not being guided by the inherent ignorance of not knowing something. Nothing more, nothing less.

ZealotX wrote:

On the other hand, I think its normal for someone who is familiar with something to have a highly detailed and informed, more accurate, version of stereotype which doesn't compare to their other stereotypes of other things in its level of detail and accuracy.... and your name for it on this topic (how'd we get to race in this thread again?) seems to be 'black'

No... I'm quite sure I've only said the opposite. "Black" is not a stereotype. That's not how stereotypes work. A stereotype doesn't get to replace an entire race. Only racists think in absolutes like that. Anyone who is more familiar with black people knows there are different kinds of black people. Black people come in all shapes and sizes.

There are some stereotypes that get applied out of humor, some that get applied out of fear, some that get applied out of anger. I don't traffic in the latter two but I know they exist and I'm aware of the ones aimed at my race. Some of these stereotypes are used to create an air of assumption that black people shouldn't be hired. Why? Because the people advancing those stereotypes did not want to compete against black candidates which they suddenly found themselves doing.

But do you get how offensive it is to call people lazy who were previously forced to work by whips and chains and were forced to meet ridiculous quotas picking cotton from plants that had thorns? But suddenly they had to compete against free slaves so these stereotypes were used to try to give the ex-slaves a disadvantage. And these particular stereotypes evolved and got worse, to the point where criminals and their behavior was being used to represent all black people. At the same time, the thuggish type of cultures was popularized the same way that cowboy culture was. All cowboys weren't good. A lot of them were bandits and people who killed native Americans. But nobody fears that the white guy in the cowboy hat is about to take their land.

And honestly, just this weekend I was over my gf's and forgot to lock my car and someone (most likely white) when through it looking for drugs, probably assuming I was a dope boy because I have dreads and drive a Lexus. But I accept that as kind of an "occupational hazard". But that's different from assuming EVERY black man is a thug. That's progress, lol.

Stereotypes should only be funny. All others should be rejected. That's not going to stop people from "fitting" a more specific description. But at least if you're looking for neck/face tats, white t-shirt, saggy pants, etc. at least that's more specific than "black". And that shows progress in how you see black people. But don't take their color away just because you don't know enough about them to confine stereotypes to more specific descriptions. What about the black doctors, lawyers, engineers, architects, plumbers, real estate agents, etc? I know a lot of them and I know almost no one who is an actual thug. And because of the fact stereotypes can be used as weapons against black people, it is important that the positive black people should ALSO be representative of their race/color. This helps to BALANCE out the negative and attacks the core premises of racism.

If that doesn't make sense, imagine if you're watching the news and every black criminal is called "black" but every reference to a doctor or lawyer is never called black and never shown on camera. Could a person, who trusts the news, not get the impression that black people are all criminals? And you almost hardly even have to imagine this because it does happen a lot on the news and is a small part of what we sometimes refer to as institutional racism.

But fortunately, less people watch the news and more and more people just reject the assignment of criminality to black people as a stereotype. And that's cool. The less we fear each other the more we can cooperate and build a better future for all. Doing that doesn't mean not seeing people's color. It just means not being afraid of it and therefore not believing negative inquiries simply based on outward appearances.

The book has a cover and that cover probably has a color but there's just no need to judge the book by it.

As mentioned I see them serving as a reference models to enable decision making, being approximate yet representative data in lieu of more accurate real data. People who use those to discriminate often exaggerate them for dramatic effect, but its not what the concept really means besides the contemporary social use. I do not bother with broken langauge and definitely don't let it define my path. Disease exists in many forms and its an integral part of life... discrimination is just another form of it. So stereotypical as a repeated and coherent model that serves as a framework for work is inherent to cognition IMO. So from my point of view your actually agreeing with me but you cant get past that black stereotypes is a reference model for most non-blacks (noting no-one said they were bad stereotypes!) unless they have black friends who they use as a reference model instead (because it would be more accurate then useful stereotypes). People with higher exposure to black people would have a greater amount of reference models and so have a reference space.... but it still works the same. To me your seemingly not accepting that stereotypes exist and serve in our minds as models to enable decision making, probably because I didn't explain my view enough or you disagree with it. But no-one here is suggesting to use stereotypes to define something, indeed the whole not seeing colour is overtly rejecting them. For you keep arguing as if people are rejecting the reality in favor of the stereotype (when its the opposite being said) either for one of those two reasons I presume.

Just because people make bad stereotypes doesn't mean all stereotypes are bad or that the use of a stereotype is for abuse or confusion or anything else counter-productive - they can be, but just because something can be misused doesn't have to define that something.

The reality is we are all coloured/colored IMO, but its better to look past the skin deep. If what lies beyond happens to be all about colour/color then so be it. It's not excluding it, its just not limiting to it.

ZealotX wrote: correction: the only difference race gives rise to, where you are concerned, or in your mind, is appearance. Race causes people to treat each other differently; hence why you said that we should "start" treating each other as people. Therefore, you already know this isn't presently the case.

Again, you make an assumption. Some people may treat others different because of race. Like defending everything they do because of their skin color or suggesting that they have been wronged in some way because of their skin color. And some people don’t care what they look like and treat everyone the same. It seems very hard for the first group to realize the second group not only exists but is the majority. But race does not cause all people to treat each other differently. I suggested that we start treating each other as people because there are those that treat people of color as objects but more so because most people treat other people like crap because they are selfish and only care about themselves no matter what color someone is.

Is it hard for you to think about people and situations without equating it to race or color?

ZealotX wrote: Yes... some people do deserve blame for how they voted.

Some people deserve blame for expressing their right and duty as citizens??? Do you hear how awful that sounds? What do you mean… vote how I want or you’re wrong? Please oh wise one, tell everyone what their opinion should be. Down with free will or thought!

I was discussing solutions because I think there is at least one solution to every problem. Often many, many solutions. You assigned motive to what I wrote and extrapolated what you wanted to read.

And, I think you missed the entire last paragraph of my last post. So I will post it again.

What I posted wrote: You know, it just dawned on me what are real differences are. You are advocating for a utopian idea. Never any fighting, hate, injustice and so on. Where I am just hoping to minimalize the suffering of those who suffer unjustly. I am a realist. And I believe that it is impossible to create a utopian society. Completely and irrevocably impossible for mankind to do. So I don’t bother with unrealistic ideals. I just strive for things to be better.

And then you might look back at some of what you wrote in your response to me and wonder how silly it looks.

Again, you make an assumption. Some people may treat others different because of race. Like defending everything they do because of their skin color or suggesting that they have been wronged in some way because of their skin color.

Not at all. Try reading what I said again. I added "where you are concerned" because I included you personally in your own statement. Why? Because you can only speak that for yourself. You can't speak it for Dylan Roof. So I was correcting what appeared to be an assumption on your part. Your next assumption is that I or any other black person "defends EVERYTHING" black people do because we share the same skin color. That is demonstrably false. What we defend is the "brand" because every time an individual does something bad the news identifies their race. Did you not notice that? Individual actions that are good tend to be taken individually by society but actions that are bad tend to be applied to their race. So we don't defend everyone's actions. We defend the fact that black people are not a monolith like the Borg, and instead we are a collective of INDIVIDUALS.

And when negative behavior is applied to our race (RACISM) that in turn makes it harder for us to get jobs, run for office, avoid dangerous situations with law enforcement, even be treated equally by doctors through unconscious bias. A lot of other people don't have to worry about these things at all. But of course, you have to understand what racism is and how it works in order to understand when and how we are fighting against it.

But thank you for bringing that up because there cannot be an understanding about things like this without conversations like this. I hope you can walk away with a better understanding.

But race does not cause all people to treat each other differently.

This is also a misunderstanding. And I do think this particular misunderstanding is the fault of black people, like I told someone else in conversation. This is because, when black people speak of "the white man" aka "the man" (depreciated), aka "white supremacy", etc. they are NOT speaking about ALL white people. This is a bad miscommunication on our part. When we speak to each other we all know what we mean. But when whites over hear these symbolic words that are representations of an idea, they think it is referring to them and they can get offended. And guess what? You have a right to be. However, never does this mean "all white people". That's how white people tend to understand it and that's why it should not be said in conversation with them. But its not what that means. There might be some black people who use their limited experience and think all white people are racist but honestly those people are ignorant and/or stupid. What we are talking about is the existant but yet unknown faction of white people that seem to have a lot of power and use that power to oppress black people. It's hard to describe or pin them down because they are literally like agent Smith in the Matrix series. ANY white person can BECOME Agent Smith if his virus takes over their programming. So because it is like that, many of us (not saying its right) adapt by treating everyone like they could be an agent. It is only by having these conversations that it becomes apparent that certain people can be excluded from that pool of possible agents. Otherwise YOU DON'T KNOW. It's kind of like going to work without knowing who has corona virus. It makes you just want to back up and keep your distance from everyone. Again... racism doesn't usually announce itself. It hides in plain sight. There are some people on this site who could be agents. But I can't say one way or another because that wouldn't be fair.

Some people deserve blame for expressing their right and duty as citizens???

please don't misrepresent what I said. In most cases I don't blame voters. I only blame people who are voting for something horrible BECAUSE it is horrible and not in spite of that fact. You can't light a fire on purpose in an office building that kills two people and then act like the fire alone killed those people. No... if you started that fire on purpose, you are responsible. If you hit someone with your car on accident it's obviously different. You can still get charged but it wont be the same as premeditated or if you were drunk. Because the law recognizes INTENT and assigns blame accordingly. As a citizen it is your right to obtain a driver's liscense. But you can be blamed based on how you use it.

note: I see you steadily trying to deflect the conversation to me personally instead of discussing ideas generally held by society. I just want you to know that I noticed.

I was discussing solutions because I think there is at least one solution to every problem. Often many, many solutions. You assigned motive to what I wrote and extrapolated what you wanted to read.

I agree. But people don't actually want to see the problem. "Some people" may actually want to defend everything racists do because they share the same skin color. Defend or ignore. I mean, that's like what you said, right? And true... there are a lot of racists who feel wronged because of their skin color. That's also true. And sometimes they chant "Jews will not replace us". I have already said I think the solution is better communication > better understanding > better race relations > less people who can hate > more integration > better representation > better laws on equality and fairness > more changes in corporate > more changes in small business > culture changes > media changes > stereotype changes > changes in presumption of guilt > more fairness > less protectionism from minorities > more openness > reconciliation > post racial society.

I could be wrong and I accept that. And everyone has a different vision and pathway for how to get to the same finish line. The point isn't about how accurate these steps are. The point is that these steps need to be made before we start ignoring the subject of race. If I think the first step is communication then it means my solution is already in motion and I am a beta tester and starting the solution with myself rather than talking about a solution that other people have to start.

You know, it just dawned on me what are real differences are. You are advocating for a utopian idea. Never any fighting, hate, injustice and so on. Where I am just hoping to minimalize the suffering of those who suffer unjustly. I am a realist. And I believe that it is impossible to create a utopian society. Completely and irrevocably impossible for mankind to do. So I don’t bother with unrealistic ideals. I just strive for things to be better.

Unfortunately, my solutions are not utopian. As I told you... but you may have missed... the solutions I mostly advocate are economic solutions in the black community based on group economics. It is an adaptation to the current problems. If I was advocating utopian solutions none of that would be necessary because racism would simply go away. In reality, minimizing a problem tends to take as much work as a complete solution because you can approach perfection but never truly get there. But the question is, at what point do you stop? At what point do you tell the parent of a missing child, "sorry but we've saved enough kids already. We're not trying for perfection here." Our job is to make things better for the next generation, whose job it is to make things better for the next generation after. So the question is not simply how to get from A-to-Z, but what steps can we feasibly do right now or even as a first step. What steps can be achieved within our lifetime? Let's try to do those steps. But if you are thinking too much about step X it will impact your ability to even get to B.

This is like a football game to me. There are only two sides. Racists and non-racists. But racists work and act like they are on the same team to some degree. Non-racists don't even see themselves on the same field. Racists are trying to win. I'm trying to win. I'm advocating a winning mentality because I don't want to go up against a winning mentality planning to lose by two points. No. Try to win by 14. Imagine if every war America fought, we just didn't want to lose more than 100 soldiers. After that we say the war isn't worth fighting. Imagine that.

I'm not advocating for a physical battle with racists. That's what they want. I'd advocating for a mental battle with racists; a battle over ideas. And that war is already being fought on social media, in homes, in bars, etc. Advocating racist ideas should be like advocating for bestiality. But it's not. And that's why it still exists. Ignorance is winning and if we want to win we need to stop fighting each other and understand who OUR (collective meaning all non-racists who want things to be better) "opponent" (not enemy) is, where and how they operate. But if/when you hear something racist you can't act like someone just passed gas. You have to act like they're advocating for bestiality. If people don't tolerate or encourage it the spread will slow. Everyone who isn't racist doing what they can to SLOW the spread of the viral ideas of racism is all I can ever ask for. Whether you personally do anything or not I still thank you very much for your time and for this opportunity to discuss/debate with you. Communication is all I'm trying to do. Whether it works or not is irrelevant. So I thank you and I appreciate you.

And no, again, I do NOT blame you; not for anything.

I am against economic or monetary solutions. They have never worked in the past and as far as I can tell will never work. Give a man a fish or teach him to fish?

Economic solutions are how you create a slave state. Dependent on whom ever is doling out the money.

But before anyone can pull themselves out of where ever they are they have to correctly identify the base issue. And take appropriate steps to address it. That sounds like basic logic but there is an entire generation, or so it seems, that believes the best way to resolve anything is to blame and demand their right to free stuff.

And I have heard just about every argument against my line of thought one can imagine over the last forty plus years. But if I can do it, so can everyone else. It takes personal responsibility, personal accountability, and the ability to swallow ones pride and do what is needed, required or desired. You don’t get things just because you exist and neither are you entitled to them.

When it comes to racism and life, there is no winning. It's not like a Football game. There just is. People learn from example. When you place infants together in a play area it does not matter to them color or sex. They just play. The ism’s people develop are learnt. Be an example, help them unlearn. And you will always catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Crap may attract more flies but they don’t get stuck in crap.

And no, what you’re doing does not win people to your side. Just like people standing on the streets screaming how others are going to burn in hell because they haven’t accepted Jesus as their savior don’t get a lot of converts if any. It is antagonistic. And will actually cause people to turn away.

I’m not trying to be mean or rude. Just pointing out what I have learned over years and years of experience and making the same mistakes. Look back through the thread… has anyone agreed with you or converted to your line of thought?

Wescli Wardest wrote:
I am against economic or monetary solutions. They have never worked in the past and as far as I can tell will never work. Give a man a fish or teach him to fish?

How do you fish without bait? Or a fishing pole? Or water with fish in it? We don't even own the land we're fishing on. And sometimes there are signs that say "no fishing". I understand what you're trying to say. I'm simply saying its more complex than that. We're talking about money flowing through a community vs money flowing into just your personal bank account; the use of which is determined solely by you. When you have a community that has wealth you can ask someone else for help. when the whole community needs help who can they go to? Exceptional people will always be exceptions to rules so one cannot say "oh but this person did it" as a generalization that everyone can. Society has never worked that way in reality.

Wescli Wardest wrote:
Economic solutions are how you create a slave state. Dependent on whom ever is doling out the money.

The Jews seem to be doing quite well. They received reparations and territory. Also, I'm sure you've heard of corporate welfare and subsidies. Also, government grants are "Free money". You can also handle reparations through tax exemptions. Lots of people got a big tax break. Do you consider this free money? What about social security? What about disability? What about unemployment insurance? What about scholarships? What about medicare/medicaid? What about the myriad of social safety nets that we all pay, taxes, and insurance to cover?

Wescli Wardest wrote:
But before anyone can pull themselves out of where ever they are they have to correctly identify the base issue. And take appropriate steps to address it. That sounds like basic logic but there is an entire generation, or so it seems, that believes the best way to resolve anything is to blame and demand their right to free stuff.

I haven't really been advocating reparations. I've been explaining it. Those are 2 very different things. That's one. Secondly, I am and have been talking about addressing the base issue as "racism". So who are you talking about? And this idea of "Free" is very much debatable. I just have to figure out if it's worth debating with you. Because the idea of reparations isn't based on "Free". It's based on payment for services rendered and not compensated. And if you owe debts and you die but you pass money on to your children, all your debts are not suddenly forgiven. The estate has to pay that debt. So the idea that because a whole generation was cheated the next generation shouldn't get anything, I simply cannot agree with.

Wescli Wardest wrote:
And I have heard just about every argument against my line of thought one can imagine over the last forty plus years. But if I can do it, so can everyone else. It takes personal responsibility, personal accountability, and the ability to swallow ones pride and do what is needed, required or desired. You don’t get things just because you exist and neither are you entitled to them.

No... they can't. What you are attempting to do is say that we have equality in the US by virtue of your own experience, having zero experience with inequality, injustice, or oppression. And since you weren't oppressed you cannot speak to the experience or use your experience to invalidate someone who has been oppressed or marginalized. You are simply to ignore the experiences of others because it's not yours. The whole point of fighting racism is to get to a place where we can say, "if Wescli Wardest can do it, I can too". That's EXACTLY what we want. We simply don't have that yet. And it is because of that which you may not want to see because it is outside of your own experience and because you feel blamed for it.

Wescli Wardest wrote:
When it comes to racism and life, there is no winning. It's not like a Football game. There just is. People learn from example. When you place infants together in a play area it does not matter to them color or sex. They just play. The ism’s people develop are learnt. Be an example, help them unlearn. And you will always catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Crap may attract more flies but they don’t get stuck in crap.

Man, you are confusing. You just said there is no racism because if you can do it anyone can. You did just say that, did you not? So how can you also argue that there is no winning against racism? We all know that infants can play together regardless of color. But what you are ignoring is the fact that infants of different colors are not put together in every community. They are often brought up in ISOLATION (where the virus thrives). And in that isolation they learn from each other that they are good and the "other" is bad. Brown people are criminals and rapists and we need to build that wall to protect ourselves. Many people have grown up fearing black people. Where do you think those ideas came from? Most often they are taught by their parents and relatives who they hear talking! aka how the virus spreads.

Wescli Wardest wrote:
And no, what you’re doing does not win people to your side. Just like people standing on the streets screaming how others are going to burn in hell because they haven’t accepted Jesus as their savior don’t get a lot of converts if any. It is antagonistic. And will actually cause people to turn away.

What am I doing besides not blaming you for anything, thanking you for the conversation, and trying to correct your assumptions and provide you with more information and better ways to communicate "I don't see color"? I am responding to you. What do you want me to do? Agree with everything you say? I can't do that. But if you tell me how to better communicate with you, then as long as you are willing to communicate better with me then I will take your recommendations for how to communicate with you. Is this not fair?

Wescli Wardest wrote:
I’m not trying to be mean or rude. Just pointing out what I have learned over years and years of experience and making the same mistakes. Look back through the thread… has anyone agreed with you or converted to your line of thought?

Yes. I actually started out agreeing with someone else. And everyone who agrees isn't going to verbally raise their hand and say that. It's mainly the people who disagree that you're going to hear from. But you have to understand... communicating with black people about race or racial issues isn't something that people do all the time. And part of the reason is because it's not comfortable. So I applaud you for stepping out of your comfort zone, but we have to have a real discussion or else we're wasting each other's time. And what I mean by that is simply that we have to be honest and willing to hear and be open minded to changes. Because I respect your opinion but your opinion isn't deity just as mine isn't. And I don't even know if you respect me or my opinion or not. I'm simply giving it in the hopes that you will. I'm sad that you feel this has been antagonistic but the first impression I got from you was mild antagonism; that you were calling me ignorant without knowing me, my experiences, my age, or what I know in general. I don't consider myself inferior to anyone so therefore I'm allowed to react in the manner I feel is appropriate to what I'm responding to. And I feel we both have the same right and its not my job to treat you better than you treat me and vice versa. So look back through the thread yourself and put yourself in my shoes. My shoes are big but I think you could fit.

Teaching a person how to fish also involves the entire process. Not just drop bait in water and wait. Where do you get the pole, bait, line where to go how to do it, and on and on. That is teaching someone how to fish.

In my opinion, the government is TOO big already and taxes way more than is needed to function as it was originally designed by the founding fathers. Check out what the tax increase was that finally caused the founding fathers to do something about it and ended up with the declaration of an independent country. Look at how low the tax rate was until the 1960’s and what caused the sudden tax hike. Look at the welfare of individuals and communities before and after that period in time. Check out the rate at which personal liberties has been infringed upon before and after the Big Government movement.

Studying US history, from the colonies till today, can really be enlightening.

Sometimes I’m not real sure what you’re referring to… so I’ll skip ahead.

BY virtue of my experience… which I’m pretty sure you don’t know of, I know for a fact that we do not have equality in the US. Nor do we have equality of opportunity. And yet even with a system stacked against me I managed to succeed to a reasonable level. And if you think blacks are the only ones that have been discriminated against try being Irish in the early twentieth century or Native American at any point in our history. My Granddaughter is a true mutt; Sioux, Irish, French, Mexican. The French were kicked out of the US, the Mexicans were kicked out of the US and the Native Americans had it stolen from them as they were mass murdered. Most of the Irish came over as indentured servants and even up through the mid twentieth century you could find signs hanging on business doors that read, Help Wanted Irish need not apply. And if you look at the French, English and German they are all mixed with Danes and everything else over there.

So I think that I and my family knows a little what oppression looks like.

And I never said there is no racism. I said we don’t start off that way we learn it. There is no winning because life is not a game. You don’t “win” life. You live it!

It seems to me you are trying to win an argument, like a football game.
I’m also not sure what comfort zone I’m supposed to be stepping out of… I have been doing this at this site alone for over eight years at this point. I am not trying to get people to agree with me. I am just trying to offer different perspectives, ideas, answer questions and hopefully clarify any miscommunication.

It seems that this is a fruitless conversation… You do you Boo

and how do you teach a person where to get the pole, line, and bait from if they cannot afford them?

If you have to have money in your analogy, in order to get money, the analogy only works as far as what one can reasonably afford. I cannot reasonably afford a house so I need a loan. If you look at the history of Tulsa, OK during segregation and what was called "black wall street", you will see that black people there knew how to fish. You'll also see that it started with a wealthy black man that came in and invested in the community. This started a chain reaction that only increased when another wealthy black man came and invested. Money flowed through the local economy and there was progress. There was a LOT of progress. I think you'll find that story very enlightening.

Guess what happened next?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_massacre

The link gives it away.

The assumption that black people don't know how to fish is basically the notion that black people are ignorant. I reject that because I know our history and I know what we accomplished. I also know that an economy needs more money coming in than going out. That's basic. When you have ownership, that means that you retain more of that money coming in.

Example:
Community A - everyone has a job and pays taxes. every business in community A is owned by community A. Every school, every hospital, every bank, every house, every store, everything. When residents in community A earn money it is paid by Community A. When they spend money inside that community it goes back to Community A. Part of that money becomes wealth and part pays the salaries. The money CIRCULATES.

Community B - everyone has a job and pays taxes. every business in community B is owned by community A. Every school is funded by community B but is constructed by companies owned by community A. Hospitals, banks, stores, all owned by community A. Residents in community B work for residents in community A. When they spend money inside community B it goes back to Community A where it becomes both wealth and pays wages and salaries in community A.

Do you see how community B supports community A? Do you see that even if residents from community A went shopping in community B it would still support community A but when residents of community B go shopping it doesn't matter which community they shop in because Community A gets the money? Do you see the difference that ownership makes? It changes the whole calculus of the situation. The more money that leaves community B the less it can afford. The more money flowing into community A the more it can afford. Teach me how to overcome this situation, oh great one. Teach me how to fish. I'm not kidding. If there is something missing that I'm ignorant to that would help to solve this equation I'd like to know.

Because historically, when community A came to this country it found that community C was very useful but community C had a very different perspective on life and living with the environment. Community C was massacred and their land was stolen and they were moved onto reservations. But they're allowed to have casinos so I guess its ok? But now that community A has everything, either by trading or stealing, now it establishes laws that prevent anyone from doing the same thing. So if community B cannot do what community A did in order to establish that initial wealth and ownership, how can they get to that same level of economic equality and equilibrium?

The government is too big? I agree. But how do I get that ownership in community B? What do I need to do? Does government need to be involved? What is the answer? Otherwise, big/small I don't care. It is irrelevant to me because big or small I don't have the ownership I need in community B to have a healthy (flowing) economy. Without that, when they talk about how good the economy is doing in the US, that isn't really helping community B AS MUCH. I have a 401k and I invest in the stock market using Stash. But my job and income level is above average. Still, the money you get out is based on what you can put in regardless of how genius your stock picks are. At the end of the day I MIGHT be able to afford to retire but not much else. So I am concerned for those of less than average income. How can they be expected to both retire and take ownership in their economy?

And the symptoms of not being able to do this... is largely poverty and crime. Which WE get blamed for.

BY virtue of my experience… which I’m pretty sure you don’t know of, I know for a fact that we do not have equality in the US. Nor do we have equality of opportunity. And yet even with a system stacked against me I managed to succeed to a reasonable level.

So did I. But again, I have to be honest. My early education that gave me a head start was subsidized. My father immigrated from Jamaica. He started as a Janitor and worked his way up to a systems analyst and head of his dept. We climb up too but the question is how far below ground are you when you start? Some people start under water. Do I respect where you were able to get? Hell yes. I have no wish to diminish your journey or struggle, not one bit. All I'm saying is that struggling in Community A MIGHT be a little different from struggling in Community B.

if you think blacks are the only ones that have been discriminated against try being Irish

And yes I know about the Irish. Would they be willing to trade with black people? Give us their treatment and we take theirs? Could I look at you and tell that you're Irish? Is there any way you could look at me and squint hard enough that I look Italian? Of course its not my intention to compare the two but you kind of introduced this comparison into the conversation. I'll take indentured servant any day over slave. But hey... that's just me.

So I think that I and my family knows a little what oppression looks like.

yeah? And how long did it last? What's the difference between a sign on the door and a hiring manager that doesn't seriously consider an application if the name sounds too Irish? Is that still happening to the Irish?

And I never said there is no racism. I said we don’t start off that way we learn it. There is no winning because life is not a game. You don’t “win” life. You live it!

I know no one starts off that way. How is it relevant if, instead of letting children develop without the influence of racism, parents and family members infect new generations with their racist ideologies? Can we force them to integrate and then force them not to say anything racist around their children? No? Then what's the point? You can't fix racism by hoping on a new generation. you have to influence both that generation (from the outside) and influence their parents to teach them better. Will you talk to them?

And not every game is one you can win. People do "live" in games. Back in the early 2000s I lived in Final Fantasy XI. And I gained levels in the game just like my daughter is gaining levels at school. You know what winning looks like? When your daughter brings home all A's. That's winning. If your perspective is different that's fine. I'm telling you that's how it is for me. I'm not asking or forcing you to agree.

It seems to me you are trying to win an argument, like a football game.

No, to be honest. I'm already winning because my goal has already been met. My goal is the conversation itself and the opportunity to provide information that you CAN consider. Whether you consider it or not is up to you. As they say, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make em drink.

I’m also not sure what comfort zone I’m supposed to be stepping out of… I have been doing this at this site alone for over eight years at this point.

I was specifically talking about conversations with black people about race or racial issues. If you have been doing that for over 8 years I salute you.

It seems that this is a fruitless conversation…

Not for me. I learned a lot about you. Before I didn't know you at all. That's progress. And I'm hoping to continue to learn how to better communicate with people who are not black (see I didn't call you white) about racial issues. I am not and do not claim to be perfect. I can only do my best. I had no ill will towards you throughout this conversation and I'll leave it with no hard feelings. I'm merely hoping you will answer the questions that still lie on the table.

And if anyone else can help me with the Community A & B examples I shared, please do so. I am extremely open to ideas.

oh. my. goodness

Community A is white
Community B is black
Community C is Indian.

Heres my question, who the heck is paying all these salaries in community B and why cant those goofballs use their salaries to buy their community? Oh thats teaching people to fish and apparently no one in community B knows how to fish... As a member of Community A I can show you how but you have to stop complaining that everything is stacked against you in some grand Community A conspiracy!

Fyxe wrote: oh. my. goodness

Community A is white
Community B is black
Community C Indian.

Heres my question, who the heck is paying all these salaries in community B and why cant those goofballs use their salaries to buy their community? Oh thats teaching people to fish and apparently no one in community B knows how to fish...

honestly?

because people have to use their salaries to pay bills:
mortgage/ rent
car / gas
water /electricity / natural gas
phone

these are basics that you kind of need just to have a job. These salaries often tend to be lower than salaries in Community A. So their starting with less money but still have the same basic bills.

Then you have more electives

food isn't elective but you can spend less money if you are cheap and use coupons.
cable / internet / netflix / hulu


I don't have the same problem any more but I remember when I had to juggle one bill to pay another and couldn't get credit cards to help when needed and how I had to pay what I owed and more in extra fees. The bank was making money off me just because my account was going negative. It was not fun and it showed me how stressful it is to live for a long time in that situation and how much more expensive can be to be poor.

But almost regardless of income... most people in community B can save for years and never have enough to buy back their community. We see the occasional barber shop and salon. When I saw them I thought it meant community B was making progress. Later I learned that certain businesses were often fronts for cleaning money. Meanwhile, the Chinese from Community D also had a strong foothold in one of the hair industry as well as nail salons and Chinese food.

And the wealth gap isn't a black or white issue alone. There is a huge gap between white people who are wealthy and white people who are poor. And to be fair there are other communities, let's call them E, F, and G, who are willing to provide cheaper labor than Community A or B. And so a lot of people in Community A (not just the rich) don't mind paying them instead of people from both Community A and B. This, in this case, is not racism. It's capitalism. Just thought I should make that point since some people are probably assuming that I think everything that negatively impacts Community B must be racism. That is not true. Poor whites are also affected by some of the additional things that affect poor black people because those things simply affect people.


Regardless if you know how to fish or not, there have to be enough fish in the lake to begin with. There are plenty of people in Community A who live a hard life because of their personal circumstances. Maybe in one case, someone's parents got divorced at an early age and the bills were too much for their single mom to handle by her self. After all, current society with its standard of living, and inflation, seems to me, to be based on a 2 income household. To survive, a lot of people from Community A receive welfare, food stamps, etc as part of the social safety net but when people in Community B receive the same it seems to always be viewed as a handout.

But here's the thing. I don't like welfare in that I think people do abuse it and get dependent on it. However, I still see it as a necessary evil if the base cost of living is more than what they can make to support themselves and their families. People often think those people plan to live off welfare. I'm sure some people exploit it for sure and I think you need to add regulations and restrictions. But at the same time I see the same people trying to work, but they are often single parents. And the price of electricity isn't any different for them than it is for a rich person. It's just that a rich person is using more and can afford to use more because they have a bigger house.

So I think there has to be a balance that includes higher minimum wage... or ... a "living wage" and more regulations on public assistance. There should be extra assistance available to widows and divorcees, especially if they cannot get child support which a lot of women don't. And there should be tax exemptions for more domestic classifications. Corporations can pay more but they lobby to keep our government bought off so that their interests are met over the working public. So while everything ends up going to the top 2% it is nearly impossible for community B to buy back ownership of their community. There have been some attempts but even if you know about an attempt "like Buy Back the Block" a lot of people don't have enough disposable income to really support those efforts. I know because I've been part of them before.

So you have to combine low wages, high bills (thanks to higher interest rates) which also generate extra fees, insurance costs, coping mechanisms (like alcohol and marijuana), with the high costs of commercial real estate and owning a business. And then that business has to get enough support from a community that doesn't have a lot of disposable income so it almost always has to be a product or service people need instead of want. Hence barbershops and salons. But like I said... funding for those often comes from washing "fish".

So how do we get around this issue, and without breaking the law, how do we get enough money to buy back community B? Salaries aren't enough.

Between Chinese, Indian (not Native American), and Mexican labor, almost every kind of job can be replaced by someone who lives in country where the cost of living is MUCH lower.

If you don't like this then this is something we can agree on. From call center jobs to tech jobs to manual labor jobs. We have a guy at my job who was basically imported just to work here, whose presence may very well threaten my job.

So while money from Community A is flowing into these other communities it also means that Community A and B are bringing in less money in salaries. This, of course, affects people at the bottom more than the top. But it is a reality that people in Community A are finding it harder to find a job. And so this causes them to look around for who to blame for why they are living at home with their parents.

But it's not at all easier over in Community B. Not only are they making less money but the money they made before that helped their schools is now decreasing. Their church? Now decreasing. The few businesses they do own? Now decreasing. It is like someone letting air out of a balloon so that it flows out faster than you can blow it in and while that is going on someone else sticks the balloon with three more holes.

And even while people in Community A feel the pinch and want to build a wall if it will help and they vote for the guy who says he's going to fix that problem and so he gives a tax break to the rich... the answer for Community B when it needs help is always that they need to help themselves. "Learn to fish". "Pick yourself up by your bootstraps". Meanwhile Community A, uses their majority power, to vote a guy that promises to help them.

Am I mad? No. That's our system. Majority rules. I'm just trying to learn how community B can get their own healthy economy so that they aren't impacted so much by racism and capitalism finding cheap labor. So I'm not looking for blame. I'm looking for (real) solutions.

ZealotX wrote:

Fyxe wrote: oh. my. goodness

Community A is white
Community B is black
Community C Indian.

Heres my question, who the heck is paying all these salaries in community B and why cant those goofballs use their salaries to buy their community? Oh thats teaching people to fish and apparently no one in community B knows how to fish...

honestly?

because people have to use their salaries to pay bills:
mortgage/ rent
car / gas
water /electricity / natural gas
phone

these are basics that you kind of need just to have a job. These salaries often tend to be lower than salaries in Community A. So their starting with less money but still have the same basic bills.

Then you have more electives

food isn't elective but you can spend less money if you are cheap and use coupons.
cable / internet / netflix / hulu

You cant have a mortgage and still ask for a special privilege handout so you can "BUY" your community. Westli is right, your bias is so thick this conversation is meaningless.... I fully expect you to reply at this point by saying that the floor sleeping white man does not have this many bills, only the black man. these bills are a form of racism designed to keep the black man down and there is a secret white conspiracy that pays the white janitors bills, right?