Is Trumps Boarder Wall Antithetical To Jedi Doctrine?

On one hand I think stereotypes are used by all people to all things until new information replaces it, sort of like a placeholder.

oh... you mean ignorance.

On the other hand, I think its normal for someone who is familiar with something to have a highly detailed and informed, more accurate, version of stereotype which doesn't compare to their other stereotypes of other things in its level of detail and accuracy.... and your name for it on this topic (how'd we get to race in this thread again?) seems to be 'black'

No... I'm quite sure I've only said the opposite. "Black" is not a stereotype. That's not how stereotypes work. A stereotype doesn't get to replace an entire race. Only racists think in absolutes like that. Anyone who is more familiar with black people knows there are different kinds of black people. Black people come in all shapes and sizes.

There are some stereotypes that get applied out of humor, some that get applied out of fear, some that get applied out of anger. I don't traffic in the latter two but I know they exist and I'm aware of the ones aimed at my race. Some of these stereotypes are used to create an air of assumption that black people shouldn't be hired. Why? Because the people advancing those stereotypes did not want to compete against black candidates which they suddenly found themselves doing.

But do you get how offensive it is to call people lazy who were previously forced to work by whips and chains and were forced to meet ridiculous quotas picking cotton from plants that had thorns? But suddenly they had to compete against free slaves so these stereotypes were used to try to give the ex-slaves a disadvantage. And these particular stereotypes evolved and got worse, to the point where criminals and their behavior was being used to represent all black people. At the same time, the thuggish type of cultures was popularized the same way that cowboy culture was. All cowboys weren't good. A lot of them were bandits and people who killed native Americans. But nobody fears that the white guy in the cowboy hat is about to take their land.

And honestly, just this weekend I was over my gf's and forgot to lock my car and someone (most likely white) when through it looking for drugs, probably assuming I was a dope boy because I have dreads and drive a Lexus. But I accept that as kind of an "occupational hazard". But that's different from assuming EVERY black man is a thug. That's progress, lol.

Stereotypes should only be funny. All others should be rejected. That's not going to stop people from "fitting" a more specific description. But at least if you're looking for neck/face tats, white t-shirt, saggy pants, etc. at least that's more specific than "black". And that shows progress in how you see black people. But don't take their color away just because you don't know enough about them to confine stereotypes to more specific descriptions. What about the black doctors, lawyers, engineers, architects, plumbers, real estate agents, etc? I know a lot of them and I know almost no one who is an actual thug. And because of the fact stereotypes can be used as weapons against black people, it is important that the positive black people should ALSO be representative of their race/color. This helps to BALANCE out the negative and attacks the core premises of racism.

If that doesn't make sense, imagine if you're watching the news and every black criminal is called "black" but every reference to a doctor or lawyer is never called black and never shown on camera. Could a person, who trusts the news, not get the impression that black people are all criminals? And you almost hardly even have to imagine this because it does happen a lot on the news and is a small part of what we sometimes refer to as institutional racism.

But fortunately, less people watch the news and more and more people just reject the assignment of criminality to black people as a stereotype. And that's cool. The less we fear each other the more we can cooperate and build a better future for all. Doing that doesn't mean not seeing people's color. It just means not being afraid of it and therefore not believing negative inquiries simply based on outward appearances.

The book has a cover and that cover probably has a color but there's just no need to judge the book by it.

ZealotX wrote:

Fyxe wrote: So zealot, do you consider "black" to be a stereotype or not a stereotype?

I think if someone says they dont see color that is the purest form of stereotype rejection.

No. Is white a stereotype? No. Are there stereotypes associated with every race? Yes. That's the nature of stereotypes. Can you reject a stereotype by pretending you are not part of the group it's attached to? No. If there's a stereotype about Asians does that mean you should not call yourself Asian? No, that's dumb (imo). You have to be who you are. You can't let other people define you in a negative way. There's a stereotype that white men can't jump or that white people can't dance. Do you then reject being white to avoid these stereotypes? No. You laugh it off and don't give it any power!

You can even embrace that certain stereotypes are funny. They are, after all, exaggerations. But if the stereotype is that "black people steal" or something like that the problem is that when whites were openly making fun of black people with minstrel shows, blackface, and images of huge lips and black black skin, they weren't trying to be cute funny. It was mean funny. So if the jokes are coming from racists, that's a different level from far less harmful stereotypes like "black men have big ____".

If you don't think its true or funny then simply reject the individual stereotype by not using it and not giving it any power. But never does a stereotype not apply because you don't want to see that person as being that color that the stereotype is attached to. In this case you have given the stereotype ALL the power because you've given the stereotype priority and importance over the race it's attached to. That may not be the intent but how it sounds.

We all use stereotypes. We all laugh at them. Dave Chappelle made a career laughing at them. Pretending they don't exist is not the way. Because what happens is that people assume you probably use those things when they're not around and so you just don't want to be saying contradictory things depending on who you're talking to. But no, the whole "I don't see color" thing needs to die. It isn't widely understood or appreciated. It's just that very few black people care enough to try to correct this statement or call attention to someone for saying it. Most racists, we leave alone unless they are addressing us individually and directly. Otherwise, it's just not worth your time as your chances of actually changing that person's heart or mind is extremely low.

This is very confusing. White can be just as much a stereotype as black can be. first you tell me its not and then you say every race has them. so which is it? I never said anything about denying your heritage so Im not even sure where you get that from. who is denying heritage and why is rejecting stereotype something you thing also denies heritage? They are two different things!!

You seem to want to have your cake and eat it as well. you want people to see you as black but you dont want poeple to see you as a stereotype. same goes for white people. I think it is you that is misunderstanding the term "I dont see color". It means we see people, as in human beings first, from there we can delve down into specifics. I dont see you as my black friend, just my friend,... who happens to be black. in this way I dont see your color first, I see it as an attribute of your humanness. thats what it means. You have it backwards.

It seems like you want to hold onto the special priveldges that being black gives you but not the history of what its possibly meant in past generations. thats not cool.

I understand your confusion.

Black is not a stereotype. There are stereotypes about black people.
White is not a stereotype. There are stereotypes about white people.
Rocker is not a stereotype. There are stereotypes about rockers.
There are stereotypes about teenagers, old people, lawyers, doctors, the military, nerds, homosexuals, etc.

But black means something OTHER THAN what the stereotypes suggest and exaggerate. The same is true of all other groups to which there are stereotypes that people can attach.

A person can all themselves a nerd without being a "stereotypical nerd". But if nerd only means, to you, what the stereotype suggests, then that's your limited view of nerds. It doesn't mean that you shouldn't use the word nerd ever. Not using the word gives the stereotype too much power.

If you call a white Caucasian instead of white do you think it makes a difference as far as stereotypes are concerned?

It doesn't.

Do you think people always know or care what you mean?

They don't.

you want people to see you as black but you dont want poeple to see you as a stereotype. same goes for white people.

um... yes. Because I can separate the two. Are you not able to? If I say... "oh the guy was white" in order to distinguish a person from the crowd, I'm not also saying he's got a small.....thing and he can't jump high or dance well and that he lacks rhythm. I'm just identifying him as a member of the "white race" inasmuch as it has been previously defined. If every time you say "black" you think of negative stereotypes then that's a problem that has nothing to do with the word "black" and everything to do with the "stereotypes" you AUTOMATICALLY apply to that term. And so then it comes off as though you're saying there's something wrong with being black. Especially, if you identify as "white". And if you do not identify as "white", that's your choice, but no one who hears "I don't see color" will be able to make this assumption. Because we don't agree with its premise or purpose.

It seems like you want to hold onto the special priveldges that being black gives you but not the history of what its possibly meant in past generations.

Interesting. What do YOU think it meant in "past generations"? And what "Special privileges" are you referring to?

I am still not sure what you are trying to say here with the "I dont see color" as something that is bad?

Are we not all humans? dont you want people to see you as human first?

If an irishman and an frenchman meet on the street both are white so there is no issue of color but one does not want the other to judge them based on their heritage. I see no diffence between that and black and white. "I dont see color" implies that race is not an issue. Just as "I dont see ethnic heritage". one cant see the difference between an irishman and a frenchman just by looking so why should we make this distinction between a black man and a white man.

Minorities today have all sorts of special priveledges and it seems to me that you want to be identified for this but not for the negative stereotype. I dont thik you can have both. If you dont want the stereotype then you cant have the positive effects as a default.

In fact i think your stance on the phrase that "I dont see color" shoujld be eliminated is actually propigating a stereotype. You are saying dont judge me on a stereotype but judge me on my blackness because that makes me better than you.

Fyxe wrote: I am still not sure what you are trying to say here with the "I dont see color" as something that is bad?

If you read my comments since the beginning of this, I have said from the beginning that this phrase if often misunderstood from what is intended and that it can come off as offensive. And I'm not talking about on the internet. I have real world examples; one where multiple black people told the same thing to the same white person. And the reason they corrected her was because they knew her so they knew that wasn't what she meant. Far more people simply never get that correction. I'm offering it here because love this community and want everyone to have better relationships of people of all colors, shapes, and sizes. But to do that you have to first recognize differences. After you recognize the difference you TREAT THEM THE SAME... as EQUALS.

Are we not all humans? don't you want people to see you as human first?

Yes. And humans come from different places and some have guy parts and some have girl parts. Some humans are parents and grand parents. And humans also have names. We call different humans by different names and labels to distinguish them from other humans. Every human is special. Every human deserves to be see for who they are. That's more than just a gender, a race, a sexual orientation. But if a person is proud of who they are, and who they are encompasses these things, then why wouldn't they want you to recognize these differences? You never seen a gay pride parade? Does it seem like they are embarrassed by it? Does it seem like they want to be defined by gay stereotypes? Don't confuse seeing with judging. You don't judge some as gay. Therefore, you don't judge someone as black. They're either gay or not. They're either black or not. It's not a judgement. What WOULD be a judgement is connecting that to something negative based on a stereotype. Please note that I offered alternative phrases to say the same thing without being misunderstood.

If an irishman and an frenchman meet on the street both are white so there is no issue of color but one does not want the other to judge them based on their heritage.

Um... do you not understand how you just proved my point? Why did you call one an Irishman and the other a frenchman? It's because you wanted me to know they were different from each other. You DISTINGUISHED one from the other. Otherwise the example would be nonsensical because I would have no way to decipher what the difference between them was. I assume they have different names. Should we do away with those too? Maybe one doesn't want to be judged based on other people named "Hussain". But the problem is not the name. The problem is the person who judges based on the name. Hussain shouldn't have to change his name or have people ignore his name just because they "don't see names". That's ridiculous. If you couldn't call me by my name I would think either you didn't know it or you didn't like it or thought something was wrong with it. But that's YOUR problem. Not mine. That's my name and I like it just fine. My name is not Hussain but if it was, that's how I'd feel. It's mine. Therefore, it's not for me to get over and reject. It's for you to get over and accept. Why would you judge a Frenchman for being French? That's your problem if you have a problem with that. And if I was French and someone didn't like French people then I wouldn't be friends with that person. It's not that complicated. And if you can't say that I'm French because you don't want to judge me... then that sounds like a judgment; it sounds like you have a problem with French people.

I see no diffence between that and black and white. "I dont see color" implies that race is not an issue. Just as "I dont see ethnic heritage". one cant see the difference between an irishman and a frenchman just by looking so why should we make this distinction between a black man and a white man.

The same way you just said "black and white" is the same way you should always be able to speak of black people and white people, like there is no difference in VALUE or QUALITY. The idea of "better than" comes from racists; not the people they are racist against. Saying someone is an Irishman doesn't mean you are saying you're better than him or that he's better than you. Distinctions (like names) underscore the fact that we are all different people. However, no one said that that different = wrong or inferior. So don't introduce that into the conversation and no one will think that every time you say black you're saying inferior. Because that's not what black means to us. So unless that's what black means to you then there should be no problem saying black.

There was a short time in my life when I said to myself, "I'm brown". Literally, I have brown skin. However, my people suffered as "black people". They took that exaggerated color and they wore it proudly. They had a shared experience that gave them their own meaning and pride. They survived under the oppression and against the odds. And rejecting that label is a bit like rejecting generations of people who looked like me and fought for their own freedom as well as mine. And so we fought to make it a positive "brand" in spite of the original intent of those who invented the whole concept and notion of race.

But hey... if you still feel funny about that then you can say "African American". Just don't say "Negro" or anything like that.

Minorities today have all sorts of special priveledges and it seems to me that you want to be identified for this but not for the negative stereotype. I dont thik you can have both. If you dont want the stereotype then you cant have the positive effects as a default.

what special privileges? If you don't feel comfortable giving public examples, then message me in private. I wont get mad at you. I want to know what you're talking about.

Fyxe wrote: In fact i think your stance on the phrase that "I dont see color" shoujld be eliminated is actually propigating a stereotype. You are saying dont judge me on a stereotype but judge me on my blackness because that makes me better than you.

No one introduced anything about any color being "better than" until you put it in that context. What about ANY color makes one inherently better than someone else? I personally do not know of anything. My blackness makes me different from you; not better. Why would you think that? Again... I do not see black as a stereotype. Do you think that every time I talk to my mom I think she's a stereotypical black woman? No. Of course not. She's black. But black people are not a monolith. Being black gives you a common shared history. But black people are about as different from each other as they are different from you. You have more in common with certain individual black people than they have to others. Just because black people have something in common doesn't mean that any commonalities with whites or Hispanics or Asians goes out the window. So it's not the word "black" that is the problem or that needs to change or go away. It's how you are thinking about that word that does. This has ALWAYS been the problem.

There are some black people who steal. There are also some white people who steal.
There are some black people who smoke crack. There are also some white people who smoke crack.
There are some black people who sell drugs. There are also some white people who sell drugs.
There are some black people who wear saggy pants and it looks ridiculous. There are also some white people who do the same and/or whites who wear extremely tight pants which also looks ridiculous (to me).
There are a lot of black people in jail. There are also a lot of white people in jail.

When people are racist they tend to take negative stereotypes and preach them like the gospel; using them as justifications and weapons of mass slander which can be destructive. In reality we should all just keep stereotypes in the context of what they actually are; exaggerations of reality, sometimes designed to injure. You need not invoke a stereotype simply saying the name of a group that has a stereotype attached.

From my point of view you have this whole idea exactly backwards. The term I dont see color is in reference to a particular thing. it is in the context of stereotype, not of racial standing. You are conflating those two. I dont go to a party with my friend and introduce him as my black friend, just my friend. and even if I had to describe my friend I would not use the term black. However if I had to depict characteristics of my friend from others in a crowd I would use the term black. I dont see color is a descriptor in lack of bias when it comes to stereotype. However My black friend over there, is a descriptor of my friend to help identify him from others. thats the difference.

By priveledged I mean things like the reparations they keep talking about and things like affirmative action.

As far as I’m concerned, white is just as racist as calling someone brown, black or yellow. I did not come from white-land nor do I speak white. In fact, the only parts of me that are white are my sclera and my teeth.

I am building a fence around my property to help keep out some of the local wildlife and create a boundary for my dogs. I guess some would consider that antithetical to Jedi doctrine. Or maybe I’m just a wild-life-ist. Or am I just an over controlling dictator to dogs and chickens?

I guess all the people that live in gated communities are… not Jedi worthy.
Fences are not bad or good. No more than a wall or a door. All they do is limit travel between two places, one side to the other. What should really be looked at is immigration policy. A giant, bureaucratic, over complicated broken system that is confusing and difficult to navigate where in its very design limits the number of people that are allowed in to the country legally.

I can’t help but notice, the Veteran used the color Green when addressing “I don’t see color”

I love it, Wes!

Fyxe wrote: From my point of view you have this whole idea exactly backwards. The term I dont see color is in reference to a particular thing. it is in the context of stereotype, not of racial standing. You are conflating those two. I dont go to a party with my friend and introduce him as my black friend, just my friend. and even if I had to describe my friend I would not use the term black. However if I had to depict characteristics of my friend from others in a crowd I would use the term black. I dont see color is a descriptor in lack of bias when it comes to stereotype. However My black friend over there, is a descriptor of my friend to help identify him from others. thats the difference.

By priveledged I mean things like the reparations they keep talking about and things like affirmative action.

1. See? There's a difference between what you MEANT and what someone of another race can understand from that statement. Just because YOU THINK that's what it means doesn't mean that YOUR MEANING will translate well. Do you get it now? That's why I've been suggesting people use an alternative.

2. You don't have to introduce your friend at a party as black. People can see him/her. So it's redundant. Why do people use this example? As if the people meeting your friend take your non-racial introduction to mean that this isn't a "black person".

A MUCH better statement instead of "I don't see color" if you want to be efficient with your words is "I don't discriminate". Saying this requires no extra explanation or debate, while saying "I don't see color" may in fact rub black people the wrong way.

Example:
https://www.syracuse.com/tv/2016/12/tomi_lahren_trevor_noah_daily_show_race_color.html

Lahren said her criticisms of the Black Lives Matter movement doesn't mean she's "anti-black" or racist, adding that she doesn't "see color."

"I don't believe in that at all when people say that," Noah, a biracial comedian from South Africa, said. "There is nothing wrong with seeing color. It is how you treat color that is more important."

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https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/opinion-dear-tomi-lahren-please-stop-saying-you-dont-see-n690801

Would you ever try to prove to a woman that you aren’t sexist by saying “I don’t see gender” to her? I would certainly hope not. This is no different.

The idea that you are blind to my existing as a Black man doesn’t say to me that you lack a bias, or that you are somehow woke. It says to me that you ignore my reality and you choose to do it, because (save for legal blindness) there’s no way that you can’t actually see me and my melanin.

If you read this article you're going to get the same general ideas I'm expressing here. Why? Because this is a common reaction to "I don't see color" from people "of color". Why would you take the one characteristic you know makes us different and say you don't see it? And of course you physically see it, so as an expression it often fails to convey your intent. But it's like white people had a meeting one day and decided to start saying this and we're like... "please stop saying this".

As far as "black privilege" lol.... I'll try to temper my response according to my perception of your intent vs knowledge of history.

1. reparations

African Americans were promised "40 acres and a mule" after slavery to help them get started in the American economy. When you have a few people who are broke a community the community can pool resources to help those people. Locality based taxation also doesn't inhibit the education opportunities and thus the career opportunities for those children. They all have equal opportunity to prosper. When you contrast this with many African American communities, the people are blamed for being broke as if they are lazy. In reality many people coming to this country benefit from generational wealth. Their communities have more money, therefore better schools, better opportunities. We have proven that better education does have a serious impact. My sister and I were better educated than many people we grew up with and therefore our opportunities were better. Our early education was priced out of range for most African American families; including ours. But it was subsidized by our church (not local, because they couldn't afford it either; but rather regional or national). When we went to public school after that we were more very noticeably ahead of the other kids. And how could they be struggling in school if we weren't and we were black too? It's because their public education was inferior. Because their funding was also inferior. This is just one example of how money affects a community. Thanks, in part, for that subsidy in our formative years, my sister is a doctor and I'm a web developer. My best friend grew up in public schools and went from janitorial work to grounds keeping. One isn't better than the other but one definitely pays better and the taxes go to the schools where you live and where you live determines the housing available. Not many black doctors and lawyers want to live "in the hood".

So even though some of us "make it" there is a domino effect that wealth and the lack thereof has on a community. To deny this is to deny economic reality. It actually costs more to live if you're broke because your interest rates are higher which makes things cost more. If you don't have 20% of a home loan to put down you, for example, also have to pay extra for mortgage insurance. And the value of your home may not even go up like homes in other areas because you often don't get to determine your own property value. This creates situations that are difficult to get out of. And a lot of things are not priced in respect of the poor. So every year college tuition becomes further and further out of reach unless you win a type of lottery and can get a scholarship. That's great, but these are always in limited supply so it always means that the majority will not have the same opportunities as the minority... of the minority. The smaller minority proves what the rest could do with the right investment. But people act like reparations is a hand out. It's not. It's COMPENSATION. Meanwhile, reparations were already given... to slave owners.

here are others who received reparations:
https://qz.com/1569005/has-america-paid-reparations/

2. Affirmative Action

First of all, black people do not benefit the most from Affirmative Action. White women do.
https://www.vox.com/2016/5/25/11682950/fisher-supreme-court-white-women-affirmative-action

Currently, I am the only black man working in the office side of my company. Some years ago there was an African from Eritrea working in the art dept but he got sick. The other black people employed by the company all work in the factory. Oh, there was a black sales guy but someone at a trade show called to complain about him (a sales guy) being on his phone at the show and he was terminated. He was asked to go to the show but these weren't the products he was even hired to sell. And he was on the phone doing sales work for the products he actually was hired to sell. So now I'm back to being the only one. So is Affirmative Action working? Dr. Claud Anderson, the first to write an Affirmative Action program, has been saying for years that it isn't working for black people. Why? Because without equal education black people, as a group, cannot be equally competitive in the job market. How could they be? So when you have a group that is less competitive because of the influence of economic conditions created and perpetuated by government, why shouldn't it be the responsibility of government to try to correct or at least offset that disadvantage?

https://soundcloud.com/boyce-watkins/dr-claud-anderson-why-affirmative-action-has-not-worked-for-black-people-1

And people see black entertainers and their wealth, and think... "oh this must mean it's fair". However, only a minority of a minority of a minority can access wealth this way. So it becomes another lottery. And those who win have to pay an industry full of whites who benefit from that person's success. Football players make a lot of money but how much does the industry make from them? Much more.

So Affirmative Action was INTENDED to help make things, not equal, but rather help black people to be a little more competitive in the job market. Black people own and control a half of only 1% of anything of value in the US. That's basically nothing. So clearly this whole notion of "privileged" black people is a LIE that is being told by racists to other whites, hoping to turn them into racists as well in order to further benefit and to protect the benefits of the dominant (white) culture. This is why you have the KKK and the alt right acting like they are victims when they are absolutely dominating. And when you have the majority, which is already powerful and already has the advantage by right of majority rule, spreading misinformation and propaganda against black people (late, lazy, steal, cheat, etc.) how do black people overcome the stereotypes designed to make them even less competitive in the job market because people are scared to hire them?

No, Affirmative Action is barely doing anything. A lot of black people get denied jobs just because their name sounds black. I was hired in a very specialized area and I was given a phone interview and my name is Jonathan. Most of us working in office jobs have adapted a different voice that sounds less black. So if we are privileged somehow, we definitely did NOT get that memo. And Affirmative Action doesn't make anyone promote you or pay you a fair or competitive wage. It just gets you a better chance to get an interview. No one is forced to hire you. I'm very grateful for the job I have, but I earned it, and I'm not getting paid what I should, but I'm content even without that. So no, I don't feel privileged at all. My disadvantages far outweigh any perceived advantages you think I have. That's why when I hear non-blacks talking like this it is both hilarious and offensive to me. But I know you don't mean anything by it. It is honest inquiry and opinion and I respect that.

may the Force be with you

ZealotX wrote: 1. See? There's a difference between what you MEANT and what someone of another race can understand from that statement. Just because YOU THINK that's what it means doesn't mean that YOUR MEANING will translate well. Do you get it now? That's why I've been suggesting people use an alternative.

Are you sure that what you're referring to isn't culturally based?

For example, if baby "A", Walter Winchester, is born into and grows up in high society wouldn't you imagine there would be some confusion and misunderstanding if he were to converse with baby "B" , Billy Bob, which grew up in the poor rural hills of the Appalachians? They are the same race but would have entirely different social, economical and cultural upbringings.

For the most part, except for genetic dispositions, I see race as completely inconsequential when compared to culture as to determining differences.

And of course, choice plays a HUGE role in how one's life turns out.

Wescli Wardest wrote:
As far as I’m concerned, white is just as racist as calling someone brown, black or yellow. I did not come from white-land nor do I speak white. In fact, the only parts of me that are white are my sclera and my teeth.

This saddens me.

*sigh*

I don't think I need to repeat to you everything that happened during slavery and Jim crow segregation. Do I?

Of all the things people suffered, do you really think being called an exaggerated color is in the top 10? Of course the person who came up with the different colors was racist. And the initial society that took his ideas and ran with it was also racist. White, as a color, gets far more respect and favor, than black and that is why the person who invented race gave that color to his own. He certainly wasn't being racist against himself. He was being racist, as in, "my race(white) is superior".

Black people were called the n-word later on but people don't seem to want to remember that slaves weren't allowed to be educated. If you were caught reading you could be hung for that; murdered for that. So for me... yes, "white" IS "just as racist" but it is racist the other direction. It's racism designed to benefit you to the disadvantage of others. If you dislike it because you don't want to be advantaged over others because of a condition you were born with then that is admirable and I applaud you. But if you don't like it simply because your skin isn't technically white either then I fear you have missed the point somewhere along the way.

Racism is not about who likes who or what or how you feel. It is a construct that is part of a power dynamic. Once the dominant culture got what it wanted by taking advantage of other people and cultures, stealing land and people and culture while fighting the same, it then develops the desire to protect all these gains and not share them with others who may come to this land fleeing persecution or for opportunity just like why many of them came. Hence... why we are talking about the border wall. Is it simply coming from a desire to enforce the law or is it driven by xenophobia or some other urge? One that might be antithetical to Jedi Doctrine?

There is the thing. And then there is the thing represented by the thing.

There is "black" and then there is the thing that "black" represents. Black people didn't get to control what color we were called. So therefore it came a brand and we do our best to be proud of, and to try to control what that brand represents. It represents us. Therefore, there is nothing wrong with the word "black" anymore; because we decided that. It wasn't our choice to give it but it was our choice what to do with it. I honor the sacrifices of all the black people who struggled and died in the fight for freedom, by also proudly choosing this label; knowing that those who oppress also see me as this label regardless of whether I think the color is accurate to my complexion or not.

There is the thing. And then there is the thing represented by the thing.

There is the confederate flag. And then there is the thing represented by the confederate flag. I recognize it can mean different things to different folks in the South. However, do they also recognize what it means to others? It is a symbol. Racism and xenophobia can use symbols like these to infect people's minds with the same idea and rhetoric. On the surface people may just want to protect their jobs. And maybe that's all there is to it for some. Others may fear their political party will lose dominance. Others may fear that the country will look less and less white. Some people fear losing English as the main language that everyone should be speaking. Social implications... economic implications... power.

can you really compare that to keeping out vermin from your back yard?

unless you see other humans... the same way.

ZealotX wrote:

Wescli Wardest wrote:
As far as I’m concerned, white is just as racist as calling someone brown, black or yellow. I did not come from white-land nor do I speak white. In fact, the only parts of me that are white are my sclera and my teeth.

This saddens me.

*sigh*

I don't think I need to repeat to you everything that happened during slavery and Jim crow segregation. Do I?

Well lets take that to its logical conclusion. Do we also have to mention what the hebrews did to the caananites?
what the romans did to the Israelis?
what the mongles did to the romans?
what the english did to the indians?
what the norse did to the english?

People have conquered other people for all of history and done just as horrible things to them. And If I have to stop using the term "I dont see color" then I would like you to stop using the term African American. Its insulting to me. Many black people did not even come from africa before here. And if you take it back far enough every living human on this planet is African American. Thats where humans began!! Just because you got to keep our original skin color and I did not does not change that.

Its not my use of the term that is offense, its is your misunderstanding of the term and I have no control over that. I am an American, You are an American. maybe we should leave it at that? Find the commonality and emphasis that, not the differences.

Wescli Wardest wrote:

ZealotX wrote: 1. See? There's a difference between what you MEANT and what someone of another race can understand from that statement. Just because YOU THINK that's what it means doesn't mean that YOUR MEANING will translate well. Do you get it now? That's why I've been suggesting people use an alternative.

Are you sure that what you're referring to isn't culturally based?

For example, if baby "A", Walter Winchester, is born into and grows up in high society wouldn't you imagine there would be some confusion and misunderstanding if he were to converse with baby "B" , Billy Bob, which grew up in the poor rural hills of the Appalachians? They are the same race but would have entirely different social, economical and cultural upbringings.

For the most part, except for genetic dispositions, I see race as completely inconsequential when compared to culture as to determining differences.

And of course, choice plays a HUGE role in how one's life turns out.

You are partially correct. And all other factors being equal this would be completely true. The impact of "class" and class warfare is huge. "Black" is also related to a certain socio-economic disposition. But let's say you have baby "A", Micah West, who is born to a famous business savy mother and a pro athlete father and he has money. And he grows up with white friends at his rich white school and its all good. But his parents split and his mom moves back to the farm where she was from and he changes schools and so Micah West converses with black kids who grew up in the area. It's an adjustment but eventually he fits in. But they are apprehensive about him because they want to know if he's "cool" (meaning... does he understand us and our struggle). Maybe he doesn't at first but he wants to because he knows they're all connected as members of the same race. One day Micah West gets pulled over in a new car he got from his birthday from his dad. The officer pulls a gun on him and he's shaken to his core. In an instant his blackness rains down upon him like bathing in perfect reality... Perhaps to some he was different from those other kids. But to some people? Maybe even a lot of people... he was still a n_______er.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBKQP5bSUYw

This sad reality is almost inescapable. I couldn't escape it myself. No matter how successful you might be, or however free you might feel, if you are a member of a race you will still, always and forever, be that race. And all you can really do is be the best personification of that race as possible so that when those who know YOU think of your race, they don't think of the negatives or the past history of hurt and transgressions. Instead they think of YOU, and your character, and what you were able to accomplish. And then eventually, people start seeing something better and treating others better because they know they cannot make that assumption. I hope my presence here, though sometimes challenging, makes someone think "hey... I know a black guy who's pretty cool and he's pretty smart and insightful and I learned something from him." And this is what black people have had to do in order to pave the way for others to come behind them, to enter their fields, and get farther in their fields, until that day when we too... can give birth to a Micah West, only for him to one day be forced back into the realization that he can still be seen as a criminal.

So no matter how successful, all black people are inextricably liked by this chain. No matter what level of society we climb to we can't forget where we came from or betray the ancestors who paved out way by forgetting to help pave the way for others to be more accepted in our society. Because no matter what... what we do doesn't just reflect on us as individuals. It reflects on "our people".

serious point with a little humor:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGqtZmShIkw

Fyxe wrote: Well lets take that to its logical conclusion. Do we also have to mention what the hebrews did to the caananites?

umm... if it happened.. then I think what the Hebrews did to the Canaanites was absolutely wrong.

Fyxe wrote: what the romans did to the Israelis?
what the mongles did to the romans?
what the english did to the indians?
what the norse did to the english?

also wrong. also wrong. wrong. wrong. Got anymore? I'm pretty sure my feeling about them wont be different. Wrong.

And if I rob you at gunpoint... wrong. If I say "Manifest destiny mutha*#@$)@" it maybe a little humorous irony BUT STILL WRONG!!! Very wrong.

Actions taken as a group don't somehow magically became more excusable than actions by an individual. No one thinks gang violence is okay because the gang has a name. What about the Mafia? What about the Cartels? If the excuse is that "everybody does it" then why do you want a wall to protect yourself from it? Why do you call them bad guys? Rapists, murderers? Didn't the Hebrews count women as spoils of war? People are okay with Moses because they believe God told him to do it but to me Moses committed GENOCIDE. Full stop. So if you think I'm about to excuse any of it...

also wrong.

And just as different groups were compensated for being wronged, just as our court system is designed to compensate victims for wrongs done to them, reparations is compensation, not just for being wronged but for work that our ancestors never got paid for and therefore could never pass down to their children. "Conquering" someone doesn't make it okay. And all black people weren't "conquered" in the first place. Some where traded for. Some were simply kidnapped.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_Americans

Ronald Reagon (you like Reagon, right?)

signed into law the Civil Liberties Act of 1988 which apologized for the internment on behalf of the U.S. government and authorized a payment of $20,000 (equivalent to $43,000 in 2019) to each camp survivor.

This was determined to be incarceration based on racism. And they were compensated. But you don't think black people should be compensated, even though victimized by the same racism, because.... whites were physically(guns) and violently(torture) able to oppress them? Were the conditions of black people not worse than those Asians in the concentration camps?

People have conquered other people for all of history and done just as horrible things to them. And If I have to stop using the term "I dont see color" then I would like you to stop using the term African American. Its insulting to me.

So you want to dictate what I call myself???? WOW! And funny, didn't you earlier say Frenchman and Irishman? Didn't they also come from Africa? But you're not really offended so why are you pretending you are? So you can create some kind of false equivalence with "I don't see color"? Didn't I say it was a matter of interpretation and I was suggesting alternatives that would help you be better understood by the people you're generally talking about when you say "I don't see color"? Elon Musk was born in South Africa. He lives in America. Is he not, an "African American"? I say he can call himself anything he wishes. But let's be real...

I could say it no better than this reddit user who, speaking of Elon Musk, said:

He’s a “South African-American”. “African-American” is a specific identifier for descendants of African slaves in the US because they can’t identify where from Africa they come from. It doesn’t identify African immigrants of any color because they can say they’re “Nigerian-Americans” or “Ethiopian-Americans” or whatever.

And that's so true. The reason we are called African Americans is because our history was stripped away from us and we do not know which country in Africa (because Africa is a whole continent larger than North America) we came from. So we refer to the continent as the default just as Europeans covers everyone who came from Europe. Are you offended by that too or just black people?

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/africa-is-way-bigger-than-you-think/

Many black people did not even come from africa before here. And if you take it back far enough every living human on this planet is African American. Thats where humans began!! Just because you got to keep our original skin color and I did not does not change that.

I'll bite. Where else did they come from? And yes, all humans can trace their ancestry back as much as racists seem to think otherwise. But all humans on the planet can't be African American without the "American" part. So that label identifies people who came from an unknown country in Africa and were moved to America. Others who traveled willingly actually know where they came from. I believe the San tribe still possesses the features of everyone on Earth like a tribe of post work Michael Jacksons; not white but you can see the European eyes and other features. Very beautiful. Seeing them helps you realize that we're all beautiful and every color and culture has the same value. Just like the song "Distant Relatives" by Damian Marley and Nas.

Its not my use of the term that is offense, its is your misunderstanding of the term and I have no control over that. I am an American, You are an American. maybe we should leave it at that? Find the commonality and emphasis that, not the differences.

No... what you mean is that your INTENTION is not to offend. That doesn't make what you say not offensive. It's not my job to understand what you say. It is your job to communicate in a clear manner so that people can understand you. And you DO have control over that. You have control over your choice of words. I have no control over your choice of words. All I can do is suggest alternative ways of saying what it is that you MEAN/INTEND. In other words, I'm not forcing you or anyone else to say anything much less say it differently. You have the freedom to say the wrong thing, to be misunderstood to the point of offense. But a lot of people don't know that what they're saying is offensive.

The people who know you aren't necessarily agreeing with your statement. They just know whether or not you are likely intending to mean something different from the literal value of your words. I am only making this suggestion to those who I believe do not harbor these malicious intentions as far as I have noticed this phrase being used. Feel free to consult with other black friends. They'll probably say something like "I wasn't offended because I knew what you meant". Meaning... because they know you, they assume you're meaning "you do not discriminate". But those who don't know you are more likely to take your literal words as confusing and offensive.

If I thought you were trying to be offensive I wouldn't waste my time. If your goal is to be understood why would you want to keep saying "I don't see color" even after being warned that it can be interpreted in an offensive way? If I'm telling you a better alternative is "I don't discriminate" why would you not want to use that instead?

ZealotX wrote:

Wescli Wardest wrote:
As far as I’m concerned, white is just as racist as calling someone brown, black or yellow. I did not come from white-land nor do I speak white. In fact, the only parts of me that are white are my sclera and my teeth.

This saddens me.

*sigh*

I don't think I need to repeat to you everything that happened during slavery and Jim crow segregation. Do I?

Of all the things people suffered, do you really think being called an exaggerated color is in the top 10? Of course the person who came up with the different colors was racist. And the initial society that took his ideas and ran with it was also racist. White, as a color, gets far more respect and favor, than black and that is why the person who invented race gave that color to his own. He certainly wasn't being racist against himself. He was being racist, as in, "my race(white) is superior".

Black people were called the n-word later on but people don't seem to want to remember that slaves weren't allowed to be educated. If you were caught reading you could be hung for that; murdered for that. So for me... yes, "white" IS "just as racist" but it is racist the other direction. It's racism designed to benefit you to the disadvantage of others. If you dislike it because you don't want to be advantaged over others because of a condition you were born with then that is admirable and I applaud you. But if you don't like it simply because your skin isn't technically white either then I fear you have missed the point somewhere along the way.

Racism is not about who likes who or what or how you feel. It is a construct that is part of a power dynamic. Once the dominant culture got what it wanted by taking advantage of other people and cultures, stealing land and people and culture while fighting the same, it then develops the desire to protect all these gains and not share them with others who may come to this land fleeing persecution or for opportunity just like why many of them came. Hence... why we are talking about the border wall. Is it simply coming from a desire to enforce the law or is it driven by xenophobia or some other urge? One that might be antithetical to Jedi Doctrine?

There is the thing. And then there is the thing represented by the thing.

There is "black" and then there is the thing that "black" represents. Black people didn't get to control what color we were called. So therefore it came a brand and we do our best to be proud of, and to try to control what that brand represents. It represents us. Therefore, there is nothing wrong with the word "black" anymore; because we decided that. It wasn't our choice to give it but it was our choice what to do with it. I honor the sacrifices of all the black people who struggled and died in the fight for freedom, by also proudly choosing this label; knowing that those who oppress also see me as this label regardless of whether I think the color is accurate to my complexion or not.

There is the thing. And then there is the thing represented by the thing.

There is the confederate flag. And then there is the thing represented by the confederate flag. I recognize it can mean different things to different folks in the South. However, do they also recognize what it means to others? It is a symbol. Racism and xenophobia can use symbols like these to infect people's minds with the same idea and rhetoric. On the surface people may just want to protect their jobs. And maybe that's all there is to it for some. Others may fear their political party will lose dominance. Others may fear that the country will look less and less white. Some people fear losing English as the main language that everyone should be speaking. Social implications... economic implications... power.

can you really compare that to keeping out vermin from your back yard?

unless you see other humans... the same way.

This saddens me!
*Big exacerbated sigh*

I don't think you need to repeat everything that happened during slavery and Jim crow segregation. I think you need to expose yourself to more of history and the general way mankind has treated each other all throughout history. As if what occurred in the US was unique or didn’t happen pretty much everywhere else in the world or isn’t still happening, and to worst degree, in some places.

As if one group of people were the only ones to ever have a derogatory word used to slander them.

And racism has nothing to do with power constructs, dynamics or any other thing modern apologist have come up with to brow beat people with. It is simply ignorance and intolerance quite often coupled with hate. Same thing it has been all throughout history.

Look… you’re obviously very entrenched in this line of thought and happy to turn a blind eye to everything that doesn’t agree with it. I don’t see that continuing this will have any positive end.

Good luck.

Wescli Wardest wrote:

ZealotX wrote:

Wescli Wardest wrote:
As far as I’m concerned, white is just as racist as calling someone brown, black or yellow. I did not come from white-land nor do I speak white. In fact, the only parts of me that are white are my sclera and my teeth.

This saddens me.

*sigh*

I don't think I need to repeat to you everything that happened during slavery and Jim crow segregation. Do I?

Of all the things people suffered, do you really think being called an exaggerated color is in the top 10? Of course the person who came up with the different colors was racist. And the initial society that took his ideas and ran with it was also racist. White, as a color, gets far more respect and favor, than black and that is why the person who invented race gave that color to his own. He certainly wasn't being racist against himself. He was being racist, as in, "my race(white) is superior".

Black people were called the n-word later on but people don't seem to want to remember that slaves weren't allowed to be educated. If you were caught reading you could be hung for that; murdered for that. So for me... yes, "white" IS "just as racist" but it is racist the other direction. It's racism designed to benefit you to the disadvantage of others. If you dislike it because you don't want to be advantaged over others because of a condition you were born with then that is admirable and I applaud you. But if you don't like it simply because your skin isn't technically white either then I fear you have missed the point somewhere along the way.

Racism is not about who likes who or what or how you feel. It is a construct that is part of a power dynamic. Once the dominant culture got what it wanted by taking advantage of other people and cultures, stealing land and people and culture while fighting the same, it then develops the desire to protect all these gains and not share them with others who may come to this land fleeing persecution or for opportunity just like why many of them came. Hence... why we are talking about the border wall. Is it simply coming from a desire to enforce the law or is it driven by xenophobia or some other urge? One that might be antithetical to Jedi Doctrine?

There is the thing. And then there is the thing represented by the thing.

There is "black" and then there is the thing that "black" represents. Black people didn't get to control what color we were called. So therefore it came a brand and we do our best to be proud of, and to try to control what that brand represents. It represents us. Therefore, there is nothing wrong with the word "black" anymore; because we decided that. It wasn't our choice to give it but it was our choice what to do with it. I honor the sacrifices of all the black people who struggled and died in the fight for freedom, by also proudly choosing this label; knowing that those who oppress also see me as this label regardless of whether I think the color is accurate to my complexion or not.

There is the thing. And then there is the thing represented by the thing.

There is the confederate flag. And then there is the thing represented by the confederate flag. I recognize it can mean different things to different folks in the South. However, do they also recognize what it means to others? It is a symbol. Racism and xenophobia can use symbols like these to infect people's minds with the same idea and rhetoric. On the surface people may just want to protect their jobs. And maybe that's all there is to it for some. Others may fear their political party will lose dominance. Others may fear that the country will look less and less white. Some people fear losing English as the main language that everyone should be speaking. Social implications... economic implications... power.

can you really compare that to keeping out vermin from your back yard?

unless you see other humans... the same way.

This saddens me!
*Big exacerbated sigh*

I don't think you need to repeat everything that happened during slavery and Jim crow segregation. I think you need to expose yourself to more of history and the general way mankind has treated each other all throughout history. As if what occurred in the US was unique or didn’t happen pretty much everywhere else in the world or isn’t still happening, and to worst degree, in some places.

As if one group of people were the only ones to ever have a derogatory word used to slander them.

And racism has nothing to do with power constructs, dynamics or any other thing modern apologist have come up with to brow beat people with. It is simply ignorance and intolerance quite often coupled with hate. Same thing it has been all throughout history.

Look… you’re obviously very entrenched in this line of thought and happy to turn a blind eye to everything that doesn’t agree with it. I don’t see that continuing this will have any positive end.

Good luck.

Please see my comments to Fyxe. As I said, other examples of humans harming each other are not okay and do not make what happened in the US any better.

As you seem okay with the assumption that this will not end well based on an assumption of blindness on my part (interesting), I will only correct a few points.

1. the concept of slavery was not unique, but the application in the US, was.
2. where else in the world is slavery both legal, government supported and enforced, and tied to an entire race as slaves in perpetuity, including future generations?
3. making a comparison between racism and derogation is apples and oranges. If someone insults you that doesn't mean it will be harder for you to survive.
4. whether you choose to see racism in terms of power or not is not something I can help you with. Your cup is obviously already full since you're telling me what is so without any evidence or anything to support your limited view of the issue that other people have invested far more time into. And they disagree. Taking your word over Dr Frances Cress Welsing, for examples, seems ignorant to me.

Look, you're obviously NOT entrenched in this at all and would rather not invest any real time into the discussion or learn anything new which might disagree with your clearly already established beliefs and position. You'd rather assume I'm ignorant (interesting) and need to learn more about history and that I am automatically somehow predisposed, although I don't recall us having a debate before, to be argumentative and possibly what? Angry/emotional? ...to the extent that it wouldn't end well and it would be my fault and not yours. No problem at all. Continue to believe what you wish.

Good luck and may the Force be with you.

P.s.

To any future comments...

Please feel free to not argue slavery with me on this thread as it is irrelevant to the points raised and responded to in regards to "I don't see color".

If you do decide to go this route, which I would advise against but certainly can't stop you, please refrain from making comments that the black person to which you are speaking is ignorant on matters of racism or slavery unless you are ready to vigorously prove all relevant points. If you think you're going to blow said black man's mind by saying that there were blacks who owned slaves in America too, I promise you will not. Furthermore, feel free not to make assumptions about such a debate not ending well at the fault of the other party who you do not know and are therefore making presumptions about.

It is not necessary to say anything about race or racism if doing so is going to involve backhanded insults or insulting implications towards the other party who happens to be of a different race. It's just not a good look in this context. Let's be mutually respectful and treat each other as equals.

If you have a problem with saying "I don't discriminate" instead of the suggestion "I don't see color" then feel free to discuss why that is. No need to argue strawmen or red herrings due to a simple recommendation to help you to become better understood by people of the race most talked about when people say "I don't see color". If you don't care how you are perceived or interpreted or how you rub people the wrong way then just ignore the suggestion. No need to get emotional or defensive. I'm simply saying there's a better way of expressing WHAT YOU MEAN.

ZealotX wrote:
So you want to dictate what I call myself???? WOW!

your absolutely right I will dictate what you call yourself if you want to dicate what I can and cannot use as free speech. works both ways. My job is not to make you understand just like your job is not to tell me what Im allowed to say. I will use whatever language I please up to and including negro, another valid word in the english language, just like retarded and any other word of phase I want. I know what the intent is thats enough for me. People are too easily offended these days by the stupidist of things. I mean REALLY?? I dont see color? Please...