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Is Trumps Boarder Wall Antithetical To Jedi Doctrine?

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16 Feb 2020 18:33 #349814 by ren
If it helps reduce illegal US armament exports to violent criminal organisations south of the border, a far more pressing issue than mexican exports of cleaning ladies and gardeners, I'm all for that wall.

Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies.
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16 Feb 2020 23:09 #349818 by Fyxe

Where ever you go, there you are. Make the best of it.
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17 Feb 2020 23:30 #349828 by ghosty
no. and stop it.

to learn, is to live.
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18 Feb 2020 04:21 #349833 by CaesarEJW

“Muddy water is best cleared by leaving it alone.” - Alan Watts
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18 Feb 2020 08:38 #349834 by Adder

ZealotX wrote:

KerouacsGhost wrote:

Malicious wrote: I have no problem with anyone's race . To me I don't see someone's race but how they are as a person .....

To be colorblind or not to "see someones race" is a way of not seeing them at all. I'm sure they know what race they are or are assigned/assumed to be. You not seeing it is just another way of you not acknowledging their existence.


This is something most well meaning white people seem to get wrong. I understand what they're trying to say but, speaking for millions of people of color, I can tell you with a very high degree of certainty, that people of color want you to see their color.


i think that is a misunderstanding. It's not the denial of race, it's the denial of the stereotypes - expressly to make way for having that more real connection between people.

Knight ~ introverted extropian, mechatronic neurothealogizing, technogaian buddhist. Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med ~ Dis
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
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06 Mar 2020 22:22 #350236 by ZealotX

Adder wrote:

ZealotX wrote:

KerouacsGhost wrote:

Malicious wrote: I have no problem with anyone's race . To me I don't see someone's race but how they are as a person .....

To be colorblind or not to "see someones race" is a way of not seeing them at all. I'm sure they know what race they are or are assigned/assumed to be. You not seeing it is just another way of you not acknowledging their existence.


This is something most well meaning white people seem to get wrong. I understand what they're trying to say but, speaking for millions of people of color, I can tell you with a very high degree of certainty, that people of color want you to see their color.


i think that is a misunderstanding. It's not the denial of race, it's the denial of the stereotypes - expressly to make way for having that more real connection between people.


Interesting. When black people think of "black" we don't think of a stereotype. A stereotype is something additional to being a certain color/race. Take the stereotype away, not the color. Normally, stereotypes don't even need to be mentioned. If they are it could come off the wrong way as well.

example:
"I don't see your blond hair."

Of course you see someone's hair color. Maybe they even put effort into having it that color. If you want them to know that you don't also, as in additionally, view them as "dumb", you don't have to call attention to the stereotype. You could even say "hey, I like your hair color."

If the stereotype of black people is so strong that you don't even want to say black because you think of the stereotype... then that's really bad. Not to mention depressing. But it reminds me of how people some people remark about how articulate a certain black person is. It is as if to say that most other black people aren't as articulate as you. What's wrong with them?

If you don't see "stereotypes" then just say "I don't see stereotypes". If you stay this to a black person though, be ready to explain yourself because it could edge on sounding offensive real quick. If you say to a Chinese person "I don't think of eating cats when I see you"... doesn't that sound like you have firmly connected Chinese people with eating cats? If you don't then there's no need to mention it at all. If you meet a Chinese person you can say, "oh hey, You're Chinese. That's cool. What part of China are you from?"

Attributes and characteristics can be a positive thing and lead to positive discussions. All you have to do is think about things you LIKE about that group of people. You still have to be careful. You don't want to tell every black guy you see how much you like basketball. That assumes they like basketball just because they're black. But maybe you just mean that you enjoy watching black people play basketball and that it seems like its something they're really good at. Again, though. Just think about positive things about that group or culture. If you can't say anything positive then saying "I don't see color" sounds like you can't think of anything positive to say so let's just not even talk about it or even mention the presence of melanin in your skin. Like... yuck. But if that's not how you feel then don't be afraid of it.

"Oh you're Italian. I really love Italian food."
"Oh you sound like you might be from the Caribbean. I'd love to go there on vacation."
but you wouldn't say "Oh you're black. I love watermelon too." That's not actually a thing. Chicken, might be. But not watermelon."
And I don't say (and this is strictly for educational purposes lol) "Oh you're white. I really love mayo. Sorry about the small....".

If you don't see stereotypes it shouldn't be too hard to come up with positive things to say about people. And from there you can probably find some common ground, something you both enjoy. It's the same as meeting anyone. It's just that you're also noticing that person's race, which means you're not ignoring it.

things you can say...
"I don't define people by their race or ethnicity. People are much more than that" (That's cool. plus you might get extra points)
"Stereotypes are funny but they're so exaggerated."
"I love every race. I think everyone is beautiful and every culture contributes to society"
"we wouldn't be who we are as a nation without every race working together"
"I just don't see the need to judge people based on the color of their skin"
if "I don't see color" is the short version of the above statement... then go with the long version. Trust me.

People want to be acknowledged, not assimilated. Differences matter, but they don't have to be negatives. Flowers come in different colors too. It would be sad if you were color blind and couldn't see it. You may not be trying to say this, but I'm telling how how must black people will interpret it. So unless you want to explain what you mean, I would just put it a different way.

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08 Mar 2020 01:38 #350269 by Fyxe
So zealot, do you consider "black" to be a stereotype or not a stereotype?

I think if someone says they dont see color that is the purest form of stereotype rejection.

Where ever you go, there you are. Make the best of it.
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08 Mar 2020 11:30 #350281 by steamboat28
I'm not caught up on this thread, but to answer the OP: even if you disregard the human element and reasoning and effects, it would be devastating to the local ecosystem by preventing non-flying migratory creatures from moving back and forth.
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09 Mar 2020 06:42 - 09 Mar 2020 06:48 #350305 by Adder

ZealotX wrote:

Adder wrote:

ZealotX wrote:

KerouacsGhost wrote:

Malicious wrote: I have no problem with anyone's race . To me I don't see someone's race but how they are as a person .....

To be colorblind or not to "see someones race" is a way of not seeing them at all. I'm sure they know what race they are or are assigned/assumed to be. You not seeing it is just another way of you not acknowledging their existence.


This is something most well meaning white people seem to get wrong. I understand what they're trying to say but, speaking for millions of people of color, I can tell you with a very high degree of certainty, that people of color want you to see their color.


i think that is a misunderstanding. It's not the denial of race, it's the denial of the stereotypes - expressly to make way for having that more real connection between people.


Interesting. When black people think of "black" we don't think of a stereotype. A stereotype is something additional to being a certain color/race. Take the stereotype away, not the color. Normally, stereotypes don't even need to be mentioned. If they are it could come off the wrong way as well.


I disagree on one hand and understand on the other. On one hand I think stereotypes are used by all people to all things until new information replaces it, sort of like a placeholder.
On the other hand, I think its normal for someone who is familiar with something to have a highly detailed and informed, more accurate, version of stereotype which doesn't compare to their other stereotypes of other things in its level of detail and accuracy.... and your name for it on this topic (how'd we get to race in this thread again?) seems to be 'black' - but its the same thing in function IMO which goes back to my first point about stereotypes and the saying being discussed and what it means.
Being people who are unfamiliar/less familiar are better served not to use the stereotype too much because its less accurate and more prone to being wrong and being misused (accidentally or on purpose). This concept being colour blind goes both ways (all ways), and is the foundation of the phrase not to see ones 'obvious physical feature' as defining them, whether it be skin colour, disability etc.

It's not about closing off, but rather creating space to be open. If someone wants to take it the wrong way for other reasons then that is on them, and quite frankly anyone can take offense at anything if they really want to, and beyond when being in the womb lol the world isn't here to coddle anyone to that extent! :silly:

As for the rest of your post, I agree, but much in the same way as above, understanding somethings meaning beyond one obvious interpretation is the same sort of thing... it's about not making assumptions informed by superficial analysis or argumentative habit ie stereotypes or bias etc. The use of stereotypes is just a 'reaction' and not really a formed response, but it can serve as a entry point to communication because it might be the most available common ground - provided both parties understand it for what it is and its inherent limitations. If you want to understand what a reaction represents then a dialog is required, and then intention and values often become both apparent and accurate. That is when the fur can really fly, or friendships made.

Knight ~ introverted extropian, mechatronic neurothealogizing, technogaian buddhist. Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med ~ Dis
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
Last edit: 09 Mar 2020 06:48 by Adder.

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09 Mar 2020 12:35 #350307 by ZealotX

Fyxe wrote: So zealot, do you consider "black" to be a stereotype or not a stereotype?

I think if someone says they dont see color that is the purest form of stereotype rejection.


No. Is white a stereotype? No. Are there stereotypes associated with every race? Yes. That's the nature of stereotypes. Can you reject a stereotype by pretending you are not part of the group it's attached to? No. If there's a stereotype about Asians does that mean you should not call yourself Asian? No, that's dumb (imo). You have to be who you are. You can't let other people define you in a negative way. There's a stereotype that white men can't jump or that white people can't dance. Do you then reject being white to avoid these stereotypes? No. You laugh it off and don't give it any power!

You can even embrace that certain stereotypes are funny. They are, after all, exaggerations. But if the stereotype is that "black people steal" or something like that the problem is that when whites were openly making fun of black people with minstrel shows, blackface, and images of huge lips and black black skin, they weren't trying to be cute funny. It was mean funny. So if the jokes are coming from racists, that's a different level from far less harmful stereotypes like "black men have big ____".

If you don't think its true or funny then simply reject the individual stereotype by not using it and not giving it any power. But never does a stereotype not apply because you don't want to see that person as being that color that the stereotype is attached to. In this case you have given the stereotype ALL the power because you've given the stereotype priority and importance over the race it's attached to. That may not be the intent but how it sounds.

We all use stereotypes. We all laugh at them. Dave Chappelle made a career laughing at them. Pretending they don't exist is not the way. Because what happens is that people assume you probably use those things when they're not around and so you just don't want to be saying contradictory things depending on who you're talking to. But no, the whole "I don't see color" thing needs to die. It isn't widely understood or appreciated. It's just that very few black people care enough to try to correct this statement or call attention to someone for saying it. Most racists, we leave alone unless they are addressing us individually and directly. Otherwise, it's just not worth your time as your chances of actually changing that person's heart or mind is extremely low.
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