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Is Trumps Boarder Wall Antithetical To Jedi Doctrine?

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05 Feb 2020 03:14 #349438 by Br. John
Why single out the far left? It's people of common decency that don't support the orange hued Caligula.

I like this quote.

“Historians have a word for Germans who joined the Nazi party, not because they hated Jews, but because out of a hope for restored patriotism, or a sense of economic anxiety, or a hope to preserve their religious values, or dislike of their opponents, or raw political opportunism, or convenience, or ignorance, or greed.

That word is “Nazi.” Nobody cares about their motives anymore.

They joined what they joined. They lent their support and their moral approval. And, in so doing, they bound themselves to everything that came after. Who cares any more what particular knot they used in the binding?” ― A.R. Moxon

This one too.

“If by a "Liberal" they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people-their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights and their civil liberties-someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a "Liberal", then I'm proud to say I'm a "Liberal.”

― John F. Kennedy, Profiles in Courage

Founder of The Order
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05 Feb 2020 03:59 #349441 by CaesarEJW

ZealotX wrote:

CaesarEJW wrote: Americans who are racist almost always try to disguise their bigotry as practicality, because it is something to be ashamed of.
Racism has a clear negative connotation, most people will not admit to being racist, even if they really are (unless they are some kind of edgelord).

I'm from the Midwest, and I live in the Midwest (from Kansas, currently reside in Missouri), so I have seen this all firsthand.
The Midwest in America is one of the most conservative parts of the country.
(for some reason, racial prejudice seems to coincide with political conservatism).

And yes, while your perspective on this subject may be limited, this subject can still be broken down to its base principles.

Which would be that of an action motivated by bigotry, disguised as practicality, and used purely to gain political momentum.
At the core of this whole issue is the simple fact that Trump's supporters like the Wall idea, so he will use that to get more votes.
That is all this comes down to really.


Love this post! It's so true. Sadly, not only do they not want to admit it (I live in the midwest too) but they keep pretending that nobody can tell it's going on and so whenever someone gets exposed they act shocked in public but then go back to making racist jokes when attention dies down. Sadly, children are absorbing it and making assumptions based on race only because of things they hear their parents saying.

EVEN THOUGH you are right and this is true... the reason the disguise works is because there is a real fear of America not being "white" anymore, BECAUSE they actually DO see an advantage to being white that they don't want to lose, and because they understand that many of them aren't educated and will have to compete for blue collar jobs. How much depends on how much legal status is given but the reality is that a lot of white people sub contract to Mexicans to do construction jobs rather than hiring other, more expensive, whites. Even though there is an advantage its definitely a golden ticket and people will choose profits first. So in a sense they are afraid of capitalism forcing them into socio-economic extinction.

These fears do need to be addressed as they give oxygen to the racist agenda. We even have people among us who support the agenda, attempting to distance themselves from the racist motives of those who also (clearly) support the same agenda for racist reasons. So for those who support Trump but honestly can say they're not at all racist, I'd like to reason how we can advocate for your interests in a way that doesn't hurt minority groups who are just fighting for survival.


Thank you, I am glad I am not the only one who sees this.

“Muddy water is best cleared by leaving it alone.” - Alan Watts

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05 Feb 2020 04:02 #349442 by CaesarEJW

Br. John wrote: Why single out the far left? It's people of common decency that don't support the orange hued Caligula.

I like this quote.

“Historians have a word for Germans who joined the Nazi party, not because they hated Jews, but because out of a hope for restored patriotism, or a sense of economic anxiety, or a hope to preserve their religious values, or dislike of their opponents, or raw political opportunism, or convenience, or ignorance, or greed.

That word is “Nazi.” Nobody cares about their motives anymore.

They joined what they joined. They lent their support and their moral approval. And, in so doing, they bound themselves to everything that came after. Who cares any more what particular knot they used in the binding?” ― A.R. Moxon

This one too.

“If by a "Liberal" they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people-their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights and their civil liberties-someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a "Liberal", then I'm proud to say I'm a "Liberal.”

― John F. Kennedy, Profiles in Courage


WORD BR. JOHN!
I agree completely.
And admittedly, I did not tell the truth in a prior post. I am a liberal/leftist/social democrat and proud of it gosh darnit.

“Muddy water is best cleared by leaving it alone.” - Alan Watts
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05 Feb 2020 23:11 #349479 by ZealotX

Malicious wrote: I will say something that most far left don't want anyone to hear . I'm a Trump supporter , and I'm Hispanic . My grandmother came here legally . I have no problem with anyone's race . To me I don't see someone's race but how they are as a person . I don't buy into stereotypes , nor do I support the spreading of them . So if you are here legally then we are all good .


@Malicious

Why do you say this is something the far left doesn't want to hear? I mostly agree with you. I just think you're jumping to a lot of conclusions about legal and illegal immigration which causes you to think of the bulk of people crossing the border as criminals who should be jailed.

But I'm glad you shared these views because I feel like we can get somewhere. It's definitely the best to be honest and up front about what you feel and how you see things. I tend to think higher of people who do so, never less.

1: if you break the law you go to jail.
for the first improper entry the penalty can be a fine. That's because its a misdemeanor. The maximum sentence you can get for this as a first offense is 6 months.

reasons its stupid: Conservatives should agree with me. If you think illegal immigrants are coming here for free stuff and to live off your tax dollars then, by all means, put them all in jail.

jail... where they will eat for free. be housed for free. all thanks to your tax dollars. And if they have kids... its tax dollars that pays for CPS and any services that would temporarily place children in homes while their parent is in jail. And what will you do after the sentence is over? Deport? Then you will never recoup the tax dollars spent on incarceration and it would be less expensive to simply deport them in the first place.

So criminalizing and zero tolerance policies only guarantee that your tax dollars will be absolutely wasted. And if you think jail is a deterrent... I am here to tell you that it's not. For many Americans... their odds of survival and comfort are better in jail than outside of it. Many people get arrested on purpose; especially those who are homeless and unemployed. Jail provides free food, clothing (technically speaking), and shelter.

Private prisons charge the government about $150 per day, per prisoner. I've purchased 2 hotel rooms in the past two weeks; both with pools. I spent between $90-120 for a day. If an illegal immigrant found a job and a place to live, they would automatically be paying into the system. Sales tax, rent, etc. as well as supporting local grocery stores, and other retail stores. The MOST expensive option for the tax payer is imprisonment. The least expensive option is fining them and letting them work and contribute to the economy and pay taxes. Their legal status would simply disadvantage them from obtaining the same jobs that legal citizens could get and they wouldn't have other rights as well. Depending on the state they may not even be able to get a license.

(cont'd)
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05 Feb 2020 23:11 #349480 by ZealotX
2: "to exploit our country and tax dollars to get things for free"

The only way to do that is if you lock them up. If you're thinking about public education its paid by taxes. Google: where does sales tax go?

The Short Answer: Sales tax is a tax on retail purchases. It is used to pay for state and local budget items like schools, roads and fire departments.

So in reality, illegal immigrants DO pay for "free" education as long as they are buying things in the US which is unavoidable. So whatever source of information is telling you they're getting free education is either lying to you or is misinformed.

3: "It doesn't matter what race you are a bum is a bum"

according to...
www.boston25news.com/news/trending-now/i...-benefits/936951998/

undocumented immigrants aren't eligible for ANY federal public befits (CHIP, TANF, SNAP, SSI, Medicare, Medicaid, public housing)

so I ask you... if they aren't working as soon as they get here then how the hell are they able to survive without any income? I had a friend who was/is homeless and the only thing he was able to get was SSI because he had a disability. Full US citizen. How are citizens homeless and starving if there's all this free federal money floating around?

Legal immigrants (like Melania) are eligible for most federal benefit programs. There's a classification called LPR (lawful permanent resident) that are authorized to live and work in the US. Only after 5 years can they apply for the federal benefit programs I mentioned earlier.

So despite what you've heard... it is NOT easy to get free money. So how could a bum from another country survive in the US? They must be some kind of genius.

4: If they genuinely need protecting then they would come here legally.

My father came here legally from Jamaica. Did you know that it can take more than 20 years to legally immigrate to the US?

www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/201...y-looks-like/540408/

There are multiple lines for different visas. Melania Trump petitioned for permanent residency under the EB-1 program which is known as the "Einstein visa" which was designed for people with extraordinary abilities.

In my opinion, that visa should have been revoked as a fraud and she should have been deported. But the system isn't fair. She is only one example of someone cutting in line to get in. This means other people may have to wait longer even though they actually do have "extraordinary abilities" because someone took their spot. Why do you think Melania did this? Obviously, because the normal route was too slow and/or difficult. So the idea that all these regular people from South of the border need to just "play fair and get in line"... well... but its not fair at all. And while they're waiting for years, terrified of massive unchecked crime and gangs that threaten their children's lives, someone else is possibly jumping ahead of them just because its easier to get more modeling gigs.

Someone who needs protecting, in general, typically needs protection NOW (sorry for yelling but it was for emphasis) not in 1-20 years from now. And if the immigration system seems to favor people like Melania Trump and allow them to cheat then why should a person from South America wait patiently? Why?
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05 Feb 2020 23:12 #349481 by ZealotX
5: "We don't need or want people doing illegal things here that's why we have laws "

We do have laws. So if Melania (For example) fraudulently claims "extraordinary ability" in order to receive the Einstein Visa, we should over look that. Fraud should be illegal, right? Unless your argument is that it isn't fraud if you don't get caught doing it? Or let's say you're a rich TV celebrity and you cheat to fraudulently get your kids into a better college? Which of these should we over look in our efforts to enforce the laws and keep ourselves safe? In all the stats I've seen these immigrants Trump says are rapists and murderers actually commit less crime than native citizens. So shouldn't they need protection from us? Shouldn't they be afraid of us? I shudder at the thought that there is some great number of models that apply for the Einstein visa or that there is some great number of actresses that cheat to get their children into college. So why then apply such a broad brush to people who "cheat" their way into the US? Why is their crime so horrible when no one cares about Melania and the fact that she "chain migrated" her parents here too? This goes to the notion that there is a double standard. No one's scared of Canadians crossing the border even though they are more likely to be here on visa overstays. Also illegal. But no one's talking about keeping them out, potentially with violence. There's no deployment of troops. No tear gas for the maple crowd. So can you see why this "zero tolerance" on the SOUTHERN border seems targeted based on ethnic origin?

And amazingly, so many people casually talk about enforcing all these laws. However, do they really care about the laws? Or do they care only because they are afraid of "rapists and murderers" because of political propaganda and demonization that often spread from far right sources (including alt right, KKK, facists, and other white supremacist camps) into the more mainstream moderate republican base by using these fears.

In other words, person 1 hates Jews. Person 1 tells jokes to person 2 that center around Jews as being greedy business people. Person 2 doesn't hate jews but still fears their economic success and political power. Person 2 votes for person 3 who may or may not share the views of person 1 but is still elected on a platform that supports person 1's agenda. Person 2 doesn't know they have participated in person 1's racist agenda. They were simply reacting out of fear.

Fear truly is a path to the dark side.

The end result becomes something worse than the misdemeanor crime being committed by border crossers, especially those whose only offense is not entering at pre-defined ports of entry. Fear is used to exaggerate the problem and therefore the reaction. Clone army, first order, all these contrived over reactions to a threat that was generated by people who sought power and used the fears of others to obtain it. In our real world case we saw this result in the "kids in cages" debacle where they were so quick to separate children from their parents that they basically kidnapped them because they didn't bother to keep info on which kids belonged to which adult. That should have been a crime in itself, but it shows that their focus was not on law and "order". There is no order in losing people's kids. And if this happened to the children of republicans by democrats there would be such outrage that many heads(resignations) would roll. But since they're not seen as "our kids"... America cannot muster enough empathy to see it for what it is.

my solution:

Simply document them and give them a special work visa which forces them to pay, out of their checks, just like child support, for every month they are here and an amount for each dependent they bring until they have obtained legal citizenship. This penalty would allow employers to legally hire them at below minimum wage without penalty if they can't find Americans for the job and would mitigate any burden on tax payers you think is fair.
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06 Feb 2020 01:14 #349490 by KerouacsGhost
There a very well established lines in the sands of the Arizona desert. There are the migrants and their sympathizers, allies and accomplices. There is the border patrol and those who support them.

No More Deaths is a humanitarian aid organization which maintains a year-round humanitarian presence in the deserts of southwestern Arizona. Working in the remote corridors into which migration has been pushed, where people are walking 30 to 80 miles, volunteers hike the trails and leave water, food, socks, blankets, and other supplies and emergency first-aid treatment with the intention of ending the death and suffering in the Mexico–US borderlands.

When I read number *14 of the 16 teachings of the doctrine and then I look at this:



It is very easy for me to imagine which of these two responses to suffering and desperation are Jedi and which are not.

( *14. Jedi are guardians of peace. We believe in helping all those that are in need, in whatever form, to the best of our ability. We recognize that sometimes providing help requires courage in the face of adversity but understand that conflict is resolved through peace, understanding and harmony. )
U.S. Border Patrol Systematically Destroyed Water Supplies Left for Migrants in Desert, Report Says

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06 Feb 2020 01:29 #349491 by Malicious
Actually I think mostly all of your topics are truthful . Our immigration policies are messed up and we need to fix them also your solution sounds amazing ! Maybe you should be the one trying to get into office . Yes some of my arguments we're in a way wrong and I will admit this . I'm not saying keep all of them out but to let them come legally . But the sad truth is we cannot protect our own citizens let alone everyone wanting to come here . Eventually we as a nation will get overly populated especially if we let everyone in . I actually non-technically speaking was a sort of interpreter for a nice Hispanic man that didn't speak a lick of English , the cashier didn't speak Spanish and the man was wanting to buy a bag of chips and a pop . So I helped him out , very nice guy , he was even wanting to pay me for helping him but I kindly refused his money . But the quote from Teddy stands . If ya want to be an American , come here legally , you have to know English , and you can only have one sole loyalty and that is to the United States no other country . I'm not saying you can't keep your heritage but I'm brace the United States . If you come here and keep repeating this country sucks and my old one was better than by all means please go back ( trust me they won't , also the last sentence was about a certain up incoming Dem ) . I get your points and I value your feedback but some of the things I said (besides family stuff ) are true . We do need people fixing these problems , and making the path to citizenship easier . But we do need to have a type of population control ( not in a bad way ) to make sure we won't get over populated quickly . I'm not saying open boarders tho because that's ridiculous . And we do need to spend money on fixing up the south American countries . Thanks for the feedback , I truly mean it .

I am a Jedi... and a stronger person because of my experiences rather than despite of them. I learned to let go of the rage and hatred, and now I can look back on my early life as a story to teach a lesson... that no matter how bad it seems, no matter how dark it gets, there is good to be found in any situation, and in the blackest darkness can a single candle shine the brightest.

May the Force be with us all.

--- Master Kyp

=_= Malicious (+_+)
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06 Feb 2020 01:38 #349492 by Malicious

KerouacsGhost wrote: There a very well established lines in the sands of the Arizona desert. There are the migrants and their sympathizers, allies and accomplices. There is the border patrol and those who support them.

No More Deaths is a humanitarian aid organization which maintains a year-round humanitarian presence in the deserts of southwestern Arizona. Working in the remote corridors into which migration has been pushed, where people are walking 30 to 80 miles, volunteers hike the trails and leave water, food, socks, blankets, and other supplies and emergency first-aid treatment with the intention of ending the death and suffering in the Mexico–US borderlands.

When I read number *14 of the 16 teachings of the doctrine and then I look at this:



It is very easy for me to imagine which of these two responses to suffering and desperation are Jedi and which are not.

( *14. Jedi are guardians of peace. We believe in helping all those that are in need, in whatever form, to the best of our ability. We recognize that sometimes providing help requires courage in the face of adversity but understand that conflict is resolved through peace, understanding and harmony. )
U.S. Border Patrol Systematically Destroyed Water Supplies Left for Migrants in Desert, Report Says






Bruh this happened besides that one time before Trump got elected if it's 2012-2015 your beef is with Obama and his agency at the time . If there was a wall from sea to sea then that will make it clear they ain't supposed to be here illegally . Ya I hate "those" boarder patrol agents the same as you and think they should be fired if they aren't already . The wall is meant to be a sign saying either come here legally or don't come .

I am a Jedi... and a stronger person because of my experiences rather than despite of them. I learned to let go of the rage and hatred, and now I can look back on my early life as a story to teach a lesson... that no matter how bad it seems, no matter how dark it gets, there is good to be found in any situation, and in the blackest darkness can a single candle shine the brightest.

May the Force be with us all.

--- Master Kyp

=_= Malicious (+_+)

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06 Feb 2020 06:19 #349512 by CaesarEJW
You know, I have started to realize, that when it comes to issues like this, there are actually more things people agree on than disagree. However, the powers that be find it more profitable to keep us divided and bickering amongst one another.
Just a thought.

“Muddy water is best cleared by leaving it alone.” - Alan Watts
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