Is Trumps Boarder Wall Antithetical To Jedi Doctrine?

The more removed an individual is from the cause, the less information about it they have, and the less impact they can have on the cause. It's not wrong to share the group struggle... but it would seem best to do so only in an effective manner, otherwise it becomes something else - a group dynamic and using the group identity as the main reference is just becoming a tool of the group narrative, in effect a slave to agenda. But I think the main difficulty faced, at the individual level reality, is knowing the reason for peoples actions - for it's rarely what they claim. Getting caught up in the narratives 'to' conflict 'as' the conflict is a mistake usually because its prone to manipulation. People mistreat each other constantly for mostly selfish reasons, and they choose whatever narrative to conflict that they think will work best, race, skin color, football team, body shape, accent etc etc. A downside of being a victim is the wounds, and one of those is that suffering alters how one perceives the world by increasing sensitivity to potential threats by actively seeking out characteristics which might serve to provide early warning. The downside of that is, when it does misrepresents the reality it at best just maintains the existing anxiety, but at worst serves to instigate problems where none might have been. So it's not about victims changing to fix others, it's more about victims changing to fix themselves ie healing their pain by minimizing its unneeded manifestation within them. The misuse of labels can be the result of pain or the cause of it, and so IMO it's better to be most accurate wherever possible and avoid at all costs loose group identity associations against individuals. Another side effect is it easily can misrepresent the scale of the problem, which is one of the mechanisms used by groups in creating division - which creates unnecessary pain for existing victims and unwinds the hard work done by those who fought, and are fighting actual discrimination.

The answer to the topic title is "yes."
Good day.

"a group dynamic and using the group identity as the main reference is just becoming a tool of the group narrative, in effect a slave to agenda. "


There is a lot of complexity that has been developed within black culture that considers all of these points you raised. Unfortunately, it makes black culture, "to some", sound racist when it is not. It is a reaction, just like how your body reacts to a cut or abrasion. It would give power to "the enemy" (racism and its biological tools) to approach "blackness" the same way the enemy does. Therefore, it is a positive thing because WE say it is and we have to take control of that narrative. If you say, "I'm not black because black is associated with negative stereotypes" then you're playing into the anti-black racist narrative and allowing it to dictate how you see one of the few word that is applied to a group that you didn't choose but were born into. When a black person accepts the idea that there is something wrong with being "black" when everything in their environment identifies them as such, whether they accept it or not, then it robs them of self-esteem.

And I don't know if you were ever bullied in school, but for those of us who were at one point, we know that bullies belittle others to make themselves look good or to distract attention from something they perceive to be wrong with them. In their cowardice they would rather offer another sacrifice to be ridiculed in their stead; to keep the spotlight of attention away from them. Parents sometimes tell their children to avoid the bully but in a school that can be next to impossible. And then it teaches you to live in a state of fear. When the bully knows they're getting to you or making you scared, that's when they feel most powerful. And the bully often takes advantage of their own size compared to the kid they're bullying. Bullying a more muscular kid is rarely ever done.

In terms of culture, early US white culture bullied black culture using its size (population). So black culture had to react. Some people got literally lynched while everyone else was made fun of for having big lips and dark skin. This is where blackface came out of. In middle school I told myself I wasn't black. I was brown. Because I choose to take the color literally. I'm literally brown skinned. However, black is bigger than that. Black represents more than a physical trait. It represents both the culture and the struggle. And the struggle is like the fire that purifies gold. No one wants to struggle, but looking back you can be proud of your struggles, your trials, your tribulations, because it helps to make you the person you are.

"But Z, you weren't ever personally a slave so how is it your struggle?"

Good question.

When 911 happened it happened to America. That even had consequences and repercussions that lasted long into the future. Two of my step kids were born on 911. They may not have lost anyone that day or were there to see what happened, but it is still a part of their history, just like the revolutionary war and other major events. Consequences of some of these events can have financial/economic effects. The problem with racism is that it created a social virus that spawns and maintain negative stereotypes that make life more difficult for even those 911 little girls who had to hear racist remarks at school. And yes... they're only 7.

While we get a sense of pride; even as a people who have had their history stolen and most often not knowing what tribe or even country in Africa we came from, the negative side... how people treat "black" people is something that continues to inform us. It gives us a sense of our reality even as it joins and diverges from the realities of other Americans. The Irish had it hard too, for awhile. However, they are now accepted as just as white as others. Understanding what "your people" have been through and how they are viewed and treated is important information to help you navigate life and situations and help you get where you're going. Maybe you can't go in through the front door, but have to use the back. Or maybe a kid sees sports or entertainment as a way out of the ghetto because they simply haven't seen enough black scientists (which is one of the reasons I love seeing Neil Degrasse Tyson).

Yes, we had a black president. However, how many attacks were made against the Obamas because of their race? There were a lot. You just can't close your eyes to that stuff because that is just as ignorant as many of the people who are racist. They're racist, mainly, because they're ignorant (and possible somewhat isolated). An individual should always see themselves as BOTH and individual and as a member of a larger group/organism. That could be something as simple as a family unit, a company, or something as large as a nation. We are all individuals, but being part of something greater is how we work together to make things better. There is value in both and the value of one increases the value of the others. So because I'm a strong independent individual I bring my own value to the black community just as they bring greater value to me and I can appreciate their accomplishments and influences on culture; both in the micro sense and also in the macro. We are all part of the universes but composed of atomic galaxies. So we should definitely appreciate the individuality but never loses sight of that which holds us and binds us together.

Jedi Believe
In the Force, and in the inherent worth of all life within it.

In the sanctity of the human person. We oppose the use of torture and cruel or unusual punishment, including the death penalty.

In a society governed by laws grounded in reason and compassion, not in fear or prejudice.

In a society that does not discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation or circumstances of birth such as gender, ethnicity and national origin.

In the ethic of reciprocity, and how moral concepts are not absolute but vary by culture, religion, and over time.

In the positive influence of spiritual growth and awareness on society.

In the importance of freedom of conscience and self-determination within religious, political and other structures.

In the separation of religion and government and the freedoms of speech, association, and expression.




What do ya do when the world DOESNT subscribe to “our” faiths and practices?

Do we continue ? Why learn ? Why try ?


These are the other questions for me. The ones that change - me not others.

I wish I could change others - most time I won’t. Most times they won’t change. What better way than to leave a example behind?

It keeps me from getting salty and using words -
That just create sides - like using color as a discription for/ or race.

#getbetter I say but that’s my modern day Jeddist practice in real life - getting better. That’s just me and I usually am alone but that’s ok too!

Although I don’t have the time, patience or interest in replying to each and every comment, I am reading them all and making an attempt to understand the various ideas presented so far. Thank you all for contributing to this discussion. Especially some of those I’ve been a bit crass with. Your willingness to continue contributing gives me hope that I may have been incorrect in some of my initial assumptions.

No one here seems to disagree that the United States was founded on the racialized violence of genocide and slavery.

If I am wrong in this assessment please, make your voice heard and highlight some nuance you feel is misunderstood or not being brought up at all. No single person or group or paradigm has a monopoly on truth and it is simply impossible for one human being to consider all factors.

Where there seems to be a disagreement is between those who do believe and those who do not believe in the existence of racialized power structures in the present day.

Some of you seem to maintain a belief that slavery was abolished after the American civil war which gave rise to a colorblind class-free utopia wherein ones race immediately fell away as a contributing factor to negative life experiences. If this was true how would you explain racially focused systems of violence and control and domination which persisted after the civil war? How do you explain Jim Crow laws? How do you explain segregation? How do you explain the racial wealth gap? How to you explain mass incarceration, what author Michelle Alexander correctly identifies as The New Jim Crow?

If you’re in this camp I encourage you to consider the very specific wording in the 13th amendment. Where most believe slavery is said to be abolished, it is not. Instead what you will see is that what was amended were the conditions by which slavery could be legally continued. What followed from that historical moment, making use of the legal system to re-enslave black people, has continued to this day.


As you may be able to see in the above quote, the institution of slavery was given special conditions rather than being abolished with the passing of the 13th amendment.




Anyone of the opinion that, in modern America, a person’s race does not contribute to a degradation of well-being and an increase in suffering as a result of both direct experiences of prejudice as well as indirect and widespread institutional oppression (A.K.A Racism) ,which mirrors exactly the structure of a dominance hierarchy as described by social science, is simply unaware of what they are talking about.

These patterns of genocide and slavery present themselves almost everywhere in the history of Post-Neolithic revolutionary civilized social structures maintained by organized dominance hierarchies making contact with traditional indigenous social structures organized around autonomy and partnerships/mutual aid.

In North America, this is not only the history of indigenous people and black people. The legacy of economic and governmental power structures founded in racialized genocidal slavery are the root of the Immigration phenomena this post was original focused on.

The people currently housed in detention facilities for no other reason than the circumstance of their birth (something this Jedi order is HIGHLY opposed to as I understand) were in North America thousands of years before Columbus initiated the conquest out of which our Nation emerged. In other words, the Latino people today being rounded up and incarcerated in mass are the great grandchildren of Indigenous societies from whom the land that is historically their birthright is being governed, policed and militarized by a Nation who’s only claim to legacy is murder, rape and theft. All the while being labeled as “Illegals” who are accused of wrongdoing simply because they still exist on their own homeland.

Their primary "crime" in the eyes of the U.S is the crime of surviving genocide. And their journey north is nothing other than brave and heroic. A hero's journey if you will. Your are all familiar with that one i assume.



If you support Trumps wall, or if you presume that the Us Gov. has a legitimate claim to authority to police "its" boarders, you are siding with the values and physical structures of domination with historical ties to racialized genocide and slavery which are still in operation presently.

The boarder is a physical manifestation of racialized dominance hierarchy founded genocide and perpetuated through systems of slavery we call detention and incarceration.

One of the better lines in the latest SW saga for me was when Poe was asked .."You were a spice runner?" his response is you were a storm trooper? Ray says you were a spice runner? and Poe says you were a scavenger... we could do this all day...

So I am American, I was born on the streets of Texas. Thats no longer who I am. I was born in the Darkness - yet i did not stay there and I no longer "stay there."

As I grow and study and learn I encourage all to do the same. I know where my country comes from. I know. Any one can know. Any one can learn where they are from. Mine did and took alot of shaking hands and talking to surviving members of groups and organisations.

So, I can not disagreeing on your assessment of Americas past. Like any human, a bit of looking at the spoon we are fed can result in A LOT.
Like any one willing to admit, the past can be that , the past. Dwelling there can result in many different things. Dont stay at a place that keeps ya too long in ... a place you dont wanna be.

Thats one of the JOYS of the Heros Journey for me - I learn these story's... so I DONT end up like the characters I choose not to be.

One of the ideas is to NOT SAY THERE. Yea we come from thieves and murders, direclty,.....so do I.
Why stay there?
Ever fed the hungry?
Every given from inside?


I can validate - every war I have been in, some one has gotten rich. Every war some one does.Every war, that position , that part in the story will always be there.

For me, micromanaging comes in many forms. For me. Letting things like other peoples choices get under my skin has been a real thing for me in the real world as well as in the Jeddist world. I dont like the wall, but im trying not to let it make me salty. I know people pissed at the sun. I know people just as salty about my family. I know salty people in this very Temple. They are every where.

My dad is Customs in Lerado Tx. Its real to me. Ive lived in border towns. Im half and half and both halfs wernt American. Here I am. My home is just as decorated for patriotic days and holidays as the Army let me decorate my own dress greens.

We can point out much in our very own search. Thats what searching is. Thats what thinking does.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE
Dont forget, Jeddist are smart. If we choose people to do things, and then be scrupulous or it throws us off... It may be something else more ... like... us.
Statements like ..." IF YOU DO THIS ... then that means you...." are always dangerous for me. Leading.

I know the names of the people who were the enemy labeled not by me. I was the difference there. My hope is what we find and what we learn can free us more than ... Lead us.
May the Force CONTINUE to be with you.
Pastor Carlos

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=you+were+a+spice+runner%3f&ru=%2fvideos%2fsearch%3fq%3dyou%2bwere%2ba%2bspice%2brunner%253f%26FORM%3dHDRSC3&view=detail&mid=D1CB04C9DD412DEFE852D1CB04C9DD412DEFE852&rvsmid=3FD294B2767FF215B3FE3FD294B2767FF215B3FE&FORM=VDQVAP


Not our vidoe and we didnt make it nor did i post it so it may expire .

Carlos Martizes: Comments appear in bold italics
KerouacsGhost: Comments appear in default text

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote: One of the better lines in the latest SW saga for me was when Poe was asked .."You were a spice runner?" his response is you were a storm trooper? Ray says you were a spice runner? and Poe says you were a scavenger... we could do this all day...
So I am American, I was born on the streets of Texas. Thats no longer who I am. I was born in the Darkness - yet i did not stay there and I no longer "stay there."

Just to be sure im following so far, you seem to be saying just that the past is behind us so why not move on and not dwell over something that is not happening anymore. I hope I am understanding you correctly.

That is a good point. I see a lot of value in being able to focus my breath and return to the present moment whenever i find myself ruminating on old problems that were never solved or arguments that never ended or emotional patterns that are conducive to the path of well-being . I breathe deeply, notice the quality of life jump, at light-speed, from 420 to 1080 and when my eyes reopen I am truly born anew.

And, in these Mindful Moments i cannot help but notice the truth of inter-being. That just as what we call a flower is actually the dirt the rain and the sun manifesting as flower in that moment. That the beauty of each and every petal a, as well as all of life, is alos the present generation of an unbroken lineage which traces its roots to the beginning of all things. And so, because this is true, the past is not a "thing" which is seperate from the present moment as the flower is not separate from the blue sky.


So, I can not disagreeing on your assessment of Americas past. Like any human, a bit of looking at the spoon we are fed can result in A LOT.
Like any one willing to admit, the past can be that , the past. Dwelling there can result in many different things. Dont stay at a place that keeps ya too long in ... a place you dont wanna be.

One of the ideas is to NOT SAY THERE. Yea we come from thieves and murders, direclty,.....so do I.
Why stay there?

Because the past is the present. An unbroken chain of events brings us to this moment and what we see when we do not hide from difficult truths, is that by becoming mindful of what actually is, we can actually address the problems and reduce suffering. Is this not the path of the Bodhisattva?

Ever fed the hungry?
Yes
Every given from inside?

Prison or the heart? Yes to both.

I can validate - every war I have been in, some one has gotten rich. Every war some one does.Every war, that position , that part in the story will always be there.

Then I'm sure you can understand that the victims of the war you helped wage may have decendants who have not fully recovered from the trauma that was inflicted with your aid. I am sorry if this stings. I am a friend of Veterans as well as the poor and the imprisoned and I believe radical honesty can heal the wounds of mistakes made in the past yet linger in the heart of the present moment.

For me, micromanaging comes in many forms. For me. Letting things like other peoples choices get under my skin has been a real thing for me in the real world as well as in the Jeddist world. I dont like the wall, but im trying not to let it make me salty. I know people pissed at the sun. I know people just as salty about my family. I know salty people in this very Temple. They are every where.

Avoiding the salty feeling depends on you looking away from the present moment instead of looking deeply at it. The reason you must look away in order not to feel salty is because you know it is wrong and that it is hurting innocent people who are suffering greatly. You are wise yet fearful. I sence that you will understand this quote from Thich Nhat Hanh

"I knew early on that finding truth is not the same as finding happiness. You aspire to see the truth, but once you have seen it, you cannot avoid suffering. Otherwise, you have seen nothing at all."

"

My dad is Customs in Lerado Tx. Its real to me. Ive lived in border towns. Im half and half and both halfs wernt American. Here I am. My home is just as decorated for patriotic days and holidays as the Army let me decorate my own dress greens.

We can point out much in our very own search. Thats what searching is. Thats what thinking does.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE
Dont forget, Jeddist are smart. If we choose people to do things, and then be scrupulous or it throws us off... It may be something else more ... like... us.
Statements like ..." IF YOU DO THIS ... then that means you...." are always dangerous for me. Leading.

I only meant to state that the values which social organizations like policing, genocide, slavery as well as war are rooted in domination not in partnership and, therefore, increase suffering rather than well-being.

I know the names of the people who were the enemy labeled not by me. I was the difference there. My hope is what we find and what we learn can free us more than ... Lead us.
May the Force CONTINUE to be with you.
Pastor Carlos

Thank you for the contribution to this discussion.

Thank you for answering and sharing.

You won’t hurt my feelings if you are being honest - honestly. Lol
I’ve seen the wake of many things. I’ve been the wake of many things.

I choose to be a difference - I - need. Sometimes it’s not just for me. May the Force continue to be with you.
Keep on.