Is Trumps Boarder Wall Antithetical To Jedi Doctrine?

Sorry dont mean to be all offensive but just revealer of the truth. you have already answered your own question. you have already stated an example in detail in Tulsa of how to do it. stop looking at community A and start looking at community B. you cant define yourself according to someone else. that does not work. focus on your issue and then work the problem, just like community A did but dont use them as a measure stick. Make your own way and stop looking for the handout.

I'm sorry but you clearly don't understand economics so arguing with you would be an education in pain. And I'm starting to see that both of you have a lack of understanding between personal finance and personal wealth vs community wealth. I would try to explain it to you but I already did and you just didn't get it. And now I feel like you are confusing ME and my personal financial situation with that of my community.
Because...?

Oh I see... when its something bad/negative then I should be responsible for other people. That's kinda how stereotypes work. And when a bunch of people, just like you, run around saying all this stuff about Community B, not seeming to realize that Community B must work for Community A because they own everything, then these stereotypes can cause people to discriminate against Community B as a whole, making it harder for them to get jobs; hence why Community B occupies so many government jobs because the government cannot get away with as much discrimination has private business can. But it's people just like you that "don't see color" (or at least who say that) that help create the environment in which people definitely do see color and connect that to people being ignorant because that is the only explanation they can think of why the COMMUNITY doesn't have more prosperity, is because of personal finances and things everyone can control and be responsible for. Meanwhile, wanting to ignore how their own community came into that power/wealth.

And I'm not saying, you're guilty or you should be ashamed. I'm not casting any blame. I'm simply asking how can Community B duplicate the (economic) RESULTS without duplicating the actions (war, theft, expropriation, etc). Because Community B is being blamed for our results. You're telling me not to use community A as a measuring stick but what stick are you using to judge community B? Because Community B has millionaires and a handful of billionaires. But that's not the same as having an economy that provides benefits and opportunities and allows for the creation of wealth INSIDE the community.

The reality is that Community B works. And no one wants to be on social safety net programs because they really do not pay out enough to really live on. People, white and black, A and B, are adapting to the pitfalls, pressures, viruses, and whatever else that is forming their environment. But it's like the housing market. You can keep your house as shiny as you want but the value depends on the whole neighborhood and school district. And if the price of everything keeps going up and your wages aren't then low income families aren't going to be able to handle extra bills and a bunch of extra costs to keep their property value up or raise it.

And uh... my sister already lives in Community A along with husband who is also a doctor and their 2 kids so what are you talking about? Meanwhile, they still be shop at businesses and eating at restaurants owned by community A as well as contributing to Community A's schools. I can't even work in the community because there are no companies there in my industry. But I lived in Community B and drove an hour to work for the last 8 years. So now I'm going to move half way. The point is... you're thinking too much about how much money goes into your pocket at the end of the day. When you're part of community A you have that luxury and you can take your economy for granted as a result. But I can't do that. I have to think about where the money goes after I get and if there is a way I can try to keep more of it in community B for the economic benefit of the community as a whole.

You have to have ownership in Google in order to get any value when Google makes money. And I own shares in several companies so I understanding investing. Your return is dependent upon how much you can put in and it's easy for you to judge. You don't have a community that needs to be bought back. You just have your own bootstraps to worry about. That's completely different than what we're talking about. One is personal finance. The other is ECONOMICS.

oh and yes I do deny that community A started with Free stuff.

So community A bought everything at fair market value?????????

Of course... what should I expect. You probably think that as long as you bought the slave all his years of labor were bought and paid for, as well as his children, and his children's children.

smh.

Wow, lets see how many white racial stereotypes I can pull out of this nonsense.


Im a willfully ignorant whitey who is not smart enough to even tell the difference between personal finances and economics.. (whatever that fancy term is!)

there is a buncha "people like me" all running around spreading propaganda to keep the black man down.

White people own ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING and wont give any to the black man. welfare must be a lie as well!

black people can only get govt jobs because all private businesses will NEVER hire them.

all white communities keep out black people because they dont want them to know the secret of their success which is war, exploitation, theft and discrimination.

the all black community the white man has herded the black man into has a few millionares but we keep them in cages so they cant bring any sort of economic prosperity to those all black communities

the black women have not become dependent on wellfare by having tons of fatherless children but instead are subject to white mans unfair pressures and pitfalls we create to keep the black man down as well as actually creating viruses in the form of plague blankets the whites give to the blacks so they are all sick all the time.

whites keep raising prices every time the black man starts to get a foot hold so we can unlodge them again from improving their stance in life.

If a black man wants a job in a white community then that community will actually shut that business down so there is no opportunity for them to move there.

The few blacks that do escape these hell hole communities and secretly move to white communites become traitors to their race most likely through the lure of greed the white man teases them with and they begin pretending they are white and only spend money in white communities.

every white man at least once in their lives has owned a black slave so they are all guilty and need to be punished.


just keep shaking your head my friend... seems like you have been right all along!! IM so sorry. It seems that WAR is your only option at this point. I suggest your organize your local militia and attack the next town over to begin your reign of terror in similar manner to the whites so that you may get your piece of the american pie!!

I am not doing this. You are actually forcing this by falsely depicting local communities as unavoidably segregated into black, white and Indian.

Again... it's clear to me that you don't understand economics. And I'm trying to remind myself that you're not used to seeing things this way and I need to try to be extra patient. You are very individualistic. But you fail to realize how much an individual is part of a group and can either be advantaged or disadvantaged by that identity and relationship. You don't want to "See color" because of a stereotype, that, seems to have a whole lot of "truth" to YOU and is about personal finance and people wanting free handouts. So you see color just fine. It's just that you connect color to stereotypes. But since stereotypes address a GROUP I cannot provide any defense or explanation to the stereotype without talking about groups. So that's why I'm talking about groups. I didn't start it.

And there's nothing false about it because after integration black people lost any sense of their own economy. I'm trying to show you guys what happened and why so you can understand the economic impacts of history and how it benefited Community A more than B. And the point of this is not as a complaint. You can't fix a problem YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. It's like getting lost without trying to retrace your steps.

A good real world example of this is Baseball.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negro_league_baseball

please actually READ. Please read the sections titled "World War II" and "Integration Era" and, if you want, "End of the Negro leagues".

Did you read it?

I don't know what you take away from it. But here's my takeaway and I'll put it in the same Community terms I used before. Community B had their own league which did so well that it exploded into other leagues. And then they integrated. But integration itself, as a concept, wasn't the problem. The problem was execution. Could they not have brought whole teams in? Could they not have shared ownership? Because Community A's teams didn't necessarily want to integrate they were never planning to accept all the black players. And because Community B didn't have ownership the players got screwed and their own leagues lost out. Because naturally if you take the best players from Community B and have them play for Community A, then fans are going to support Community A's league, watch those games, etc. Without ownership (ownership = power) they couldn't control who got picked and who didn't. They couldn't play for one league and help the other. And those who didn't get picked had to pick themselves up by their bootstraps in a different industry.

If we look at the NFL and NBA today, the players are majority from Community B but only after the 2000's did you have any ownership by Community B. And so if a player wants to take a knee for social justice reforms he can be told to "find a country that works better for him".

There is a difference between just being a player and being an owner. Owners get to choose who their players are. Owners can make sure they are acting in the best interest of their players. Yes, Community B gets to have more players now. But at the cost of giving up ownership. And that's what happened in almost every industry when it came to integration. The value of that ownership means billions of dollars. They can afford to play players so much because they make so much more. And I'm not talking about how much one person makes. I'm talking about the money that goes into the owner's community and who gets to decide what to do with that money. You can say whatever you want about Oprah and Bill Cosby but they did a ton for the members of their community who wanted to be in the TV and movie industries; not simply in front of the camera, but behind it. Opportunities... when you have ownership you can create your own opportunities where they are lacking.

Again, I'm saying all this in response to statements like the following:

I am against economic or monetary solutions. They have never worked in the past and as far as I can tell will never work. Give a man a fish or teach him to fish? - Wes

Not knowing how to fish is the same as being ignorant.

So what I'm explaining to both of you is that it's not a matter of knowledge but OWNERSHIP. Ownership in black wall street was lost due to a race riot where Community A were the aggressors and attacked Community B in order to go after a man who wasn't proven guilty of anything.

lol hmm like all white people live in rich communities and white people don’t invest in other communities and white people stole everything they have and then justified it and white people only take care of other white people. These are things YOU have said, not I.

Your imagination is playing tricks on you. Don't tell me what I said. Quote me.

No its not racist but as soon as you hear the truth you resort to the race card don’t you. I and others tell you exactly how you can fix your issues in an honest and upfront manner and instead of saying those are good ideas you accuse us of attacking you because of your color.

LOL... who is "your"? No, you are very confused. I don't have personal finance issues. So when you say "your" who are you talking about? You're talking about an entire community, what's who. And because you don't listen you try to tell that community what their issues are instead of listening. Why? Because you think everything is about blame. I can literally sit here and say "I'm not blaming you" and you'll still get defensive. You both seem quick to say white people today aren't responsible for the past because they didn't do it. But instead of listening to the problems like adults all you seem to hear is "I'm poor and its your fault." And you get defensive. And then you make me defensive because you start blaming my community for its current socio-economic position. But that didn't just happen. That happened over the course of decades. But whenever its something bad, we're responsible. And we get blamed. And then you pretend not to see color and still evoke racial stereotypes popularized a long time ago.

And what exactly do you see? You are the one segregating us and you are the one whining when people tell you that you actually need to work to get somewhere in life no matter your color.

The reason that's bogus is because when I used the example of "Community B" is specifically and purposefully said EVERYONE was working. But your mind filtered out that bit of hypothetical information perhaps because it didn't agree. So how are you going to tell me, in a hypothesis where everyone is already working that people need to work to get somewhere in life. NO DUH! Tell me something I don't know. Because all these little side comments are aggravating.

I absolutely love this comment. No one EVER said anything about lack of skills or intelligence. YOU just said that. Victim mentality is all I see here. The poor black man, everyone hates us, we just need to go eat worms. Then after you "self pity" yourself then you actually provide the very solution to your problem and yet seem to want to ignore it. Why is that?

False. You are confused. You don't need to teach someone to fish who already knows how to fish. The implication of not knowing is ignorance. Just like you seem to be ignorant of what I was responding to. And you also don't seem to understand enough about economics to have understood why the "black wall street" scenario I mentioned would not work today. The solutions I believe WOULD work are anti-integration and requires us to do "group economics" like the Chinese and Indian communities. I believe this would work but it requires too many of us to discriminate how we spend our money and even doing that, we could do it in the service market but really in the product market without significant investment that the people who want to do this the most simply do not have. But if you look at what Akon is doing in Africa... stuff like that is perfect. It's just not enough and there's not enough of that here.

I am in no way defensive just frustrated at your willfull ignorance. And whats more, im not sure why you are on a Jedi board complaining about discrimination in the first place. I and others have given you the answer. Im sorry you cant see it. its clear the level of deep indoctrination you have displayed is getting in the way. Im not responsible for you and the white man is not responsible for the black mans well being. thats all there is to it. when you finally figure this out you will then begin to prosper. Until then good luck.

Im a willfully ignorant whitey who is not smart enough to even tell the difference between personal finances and economics.. (whatever that fancy term is!)

LOL... Because you take that as me talking about ALL WHITE PEOPLE? WOW. No, you are confused. I was absolutely, positively, 100%, only talking about you and Wes to a much lesser degree because I feel like he is approaching this conversation more honestly than you are. I think you just want to take advantage of the opportunity to say this stuff.

there is a buncha "people like me" all running around spreading propaganda to keep the black man down.

Yes... like YOU. Meaning YOU... FYXE. I know this because it may be news to you but that was not the first time I've heard someone say that. So I already know from personal experience that there are a bunch of people like FYXE running around repeating the same stereotypical stuff about black people. And when those people have power and those ideas are absorbed by people in powerful positions it creates BIAS.

And yes, that bias can effectively be to the detriment of that group.

White people own ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING and wont give any to the black man. welfare must be a lie as well!

Apparently. You have to put words in my mouth and exaggerate in order to make a point. That's not what I said and no, "welfare" is not a gift to the black man. I pay taxes. I'm paying for welfare too; including all the whites who utilize social safety nets. Another social safety net? Social Security and Medicare. I'm paying for those too. It's not a gift. Unemployment? I pay for that too. So stop acting like its a gift from the white man.

black people can only get govt jobs because all private businesses will NEVER hire them.

Again... if you have to put words in my mouth then you're arguing against yourself. This is just as silly as saying ALL black people are on welfare. Of course, no one is saying that. So stop being silly.

all white communities keep out black people because they dont want them to know the secret of their success which is war, exploitation, theft and discrimination.

No, I asked you how Community B could achieve similar results since that's the measuring stick we are compared to. I know more white people who are financial trouble, than black people I know. But somehow a conversation that wasn't about money... at all... because it was about saying "I don't see color" but quickly it came down to the stereotype of black people being on welfare and wanting reparations. It was you who talked about "black privilege" which is utter nonsense. But this is what I have to deal with.

the black women have not become dependent on wellfare by having tons of fatherless children

This is what YOU are suggesting. My ex wife was a single mother of 4. No welfare. No child support. My current girlfriend raised 2 boys on her own. No welfare. No child support. But every time a racist gets defensive I have to hear about how our women are having tons of fatherless children as if they're all on welfare and as if this is a choice they are making. Many of these women are choosing not to be with their children's father, either because he isn't providing enough financial support or because of other personal issues that prevent them from staying. But these same critics pay NO attention to guys like me, who have stepped in and supported children who weren't our biological children. And that's because they only care about the half of the story that they care about.

whites keep raising prices every time the black man starts to get a foot hold

ridiculous. No one said anything like that. Wages are stagnant. Therefore if your wages don't keep up with inflation then you are less and less likely to be earning a "living wage". But the heart of all this exaggeration and twisting my words, and strawmen attacks is because you either can't or don't want to deal with the truth. You want to blame. And that's fine. That's just not the conversation I'm here for.

Fyxe, you're willfully ignorant or a provocateur. That has nothing to do with race, but everything to do with your behavior in forum from day one.

Some people aren't worth the effort. Just say that Fyxe is wrong and if a spectator thinks you're factually incorrect or being unfair, you can have a genuine conversation with them.

African Americans suffered institutionalized prejudice for quite some time, and the lingering cultural effects have a momentum of their own. I don't think anyone can find that wrong. Obviously, people who don't experience racism in a meaningful way won't have the same point of view. One of my good college friends was a brilliant Nigerian from a well off family, and it was always funny to watch people change how they treated him when they first talked with him.

A better conversation is to ask what parity looks like, how to get there, and if stymieing immigration from south America is part of that

Thank you, Rex. I REALLY appreciate that.

People in general may not agree with me 100% and that's fine. I don't expect them too. But there are people who have the maturity to discuss racial issues and who go about it honestly even if some of what they say sounds condescending. Then you have people who jump onto an existing conversation, see someone probing the same stereotypical angle that are basically the doctrines of the alt right, and then they want to twist the conversation into everything they don't like about your race.

And that's a far cry from "I don't see color". That's not cool and what Rex did is an excellent example of how you solve racism. A lot of people don't want to do it because they don't want that confrontation and I completely understand that. But when you do what Rex did, you're like an antibody interrupting the reproductive cycle of the virus. And not only does that have this positive effect, but for me seeing that... helps me as well. It puts me more at ease so that I can be less defensive and not feel ganged up on and like it is one side against the other. It eases tensions and gives more of a sense of equality because we're not judging correctness based on which group we are from but rather what's right or wrong. And as long as that sense of equality exists we can all take criticism or correction. If it doesn't exist our natural reaction will be to reject it. And so again... my sincerest thanks.

And, and this is simply my humble opinion, racism spreads because of ideas like these that basically go viral. One person thinking these things would never equate to discrimination. However, a lot of people thinking this stuff and having positions of power? Yes, that can create the right ecosystem for discrimination. And it's not just something that happened to African Americans. It also happened to Native Americans. It also happened to the Irish. It also happened to the Japanese.

People who hold these ideas often defend them somewhat like a religious belief. I was trying to explain, from an economics perspective, how community wealth creates an advantage that may be taken for granted or goes unnoticed compared to the experience of not having that community wealth. ALL (all races and ethnicities) of us living in America, benefit from the American economy. That is a fact. It is undeniable. That automatically helps everyone. So one can say "I picked myself up by the bootstraps" but it was easier to do in America than if the same person was in China or Bulgaria or Chile. And yes, there are cultural variables too. It would be easier if you were a member of the Jewish community, not because of anything bad but because the Torah commands a certain level of economic benefit within the Jewish community. Unfortunately, this also leads to some people chanting "Jews will not replace us". So there is actual anxiety over how well they're doing and questions about what practices they have which may be seen as discriminatory. But... the reality is that they have built and maintained their own economy within their community. Native American tribes have struggled trying to do this and now some are finally finding their feet with green energy technologies. But it is not easy to fight one's way back from discrimination. And even if you, as an individual, is good financially, that doesn't mean your community automatically benefits and can then turn around and use that benefit to create opportunities for others.

https://www.epi.org/publication/bp370-native-americans-jobs/

The dependency often thought of doesn't come from social safety nets. Ironically, the dependency comes from jobs. Just the opposite. Because through these jobs we help to make money for companies we don't own. And this supports the American economy in general but whenever a certain segment of the population "sees color" they criticize communities of color as a different socio-economic strata from oh "I just see an American". So we're all just Americans when its convenient but when we want to stereotype, people are all set with their opinions based on statistics that they already know or have heard about. And it's hard to defend yourself when a person is saying out of one side of their mouth, don't be defined by other people (referring to Caucasians) when they are trying to define "black people" according to these stereotypes. And this is why, the crowd reacted when Tomi said "I don't see color" and why Trevor Noah confronted her on that idea.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUG1XKvzZM8

I agree with everything this youtuber said. The general idea is that if you're trying to say something positive you shouldn't use inflammatory language that works against people understanding your point. You shouldn't have to clarify what you mean by saying "I don't see color". That's why I've been saying it would be a better alternative to say "I don't discriminate". I don't know why that's so offensive.

Cognitive Group Bias in action right here folks! Get one person to agree with your position and instead of argueing the position, attack the opposite side. this is clearly against the rules - discuss issues not people... right REX?? a leader here engaging in such antics is disgusting.

Sorry, but Rex did nothing wrong. He wasn't agreeing with me. He was agreeing with a single point that he found to be valid. People are allowed to do that. But you are now acting like a victim as if someone was racially oppressing you because of things you inserted into that person's mouth. But you thought it was cute to try to play the "race card" in reverse because in your mind members of that race are always complaining. That's a stereotype that you brought to life here. You were actually the one complaining about black people. And you take it as an attack when someone tries to explain to you how black people got into that situation as a group; but as I said... that group dynamic and lack of wealth in the community should not be confused with personal finance. This is a mistake that a lot of people seem to make because it's harder for them to see the advantages inherently baked into the system.

And like I just said... we all have a certain level of advantage, being Americans. I don't take that for granted because my father didn't grow up in America. And it's the reason why so many people from around the world want to come here. But it is a mistake to think that everyone in America is equally benefited by the system. That doesn't mean I don't like you. That doesn't mean I blame you. That doesn't mean I want you to pay me reparations. I pay taxes just like you do. I pay for social safety nets just like you do. I pay for a large government just like you do. I don't necessarily like globalization but I realize that it is a byproduct of unfettered capitalism. So I'm looking for balance in all these things. That's what I want. I don't want to penalize you for being white. I just don't want to be penalized for being black. And even if you don't see those penalties that doesn't mean they don't exist. Just because one person says "I don't see color" doesn't mean that everyone has decided to agree. Just because you wouldn't go shoot up a black church doesn't mean that Dylan Roof wouldn't or that there are hundreds of others like him that want a race war.

So forgive me if being told "Get a job" sounds extremely condescending and racist. Forgive me if I don't like my race being implied that they are ignorant as far as how to make money. I've shown examples to the contrary, but they have one thing in common; the influence of racism. And then you have integration, which did not include "economic justice", which was Dr. King's regret and why he made the comment about integrating into a burning house.

“We have fought hard and long for integration, as I believe we should have, and I know that we will win. But I've come to believe we're integrating into a burning house.

I'm afraid that America may be losing what moral vision she may have had …. And I'm afraid that even as we integrate, we are walking into a place that does not understand that this nation needs to be deeply concerned with the plight of the poor and disenfranchised. Until we commit ourselves to ensuring that the underclass is given justice and opportunity, we will continue to perpetuate the anger and violence that tears at the soul of this nation.”

He was right. My concern for the poor extends to poor whites because wealth is constantly being redistributed to the top 2%. That's why I'm a Bernie supporter. But one of the problems is that when poor whites, long ago, were ideologically separated from poor blacks (and I wasn't there so I don't have real hard evidence for this) and, I believe, racism was engineered in the US, in part, to protect the assets of the rich. I believe they told poor whites something to the effect of "at least you're not black" and kinda gave them a superiority complex based on color which benefits the rich because they would not have to worry about them teaming up. And indeed, they didn't. Instead, a lot of poor whites got jobs in supervisory roles over slaves, slave catchers, etc. part of which evolved into police departments.

https://plsonline.eku.edu/insidelook/brief-history-slavery-and-origins-american-policing

The birth and development of the American police can be traced to a multitude of historical, legal and political-economic conditions. The institution of slavery and the control of minorities, however, were two of the more formidable historic features of American society shaping early policing. Slave patrols and Night Watches, which later became modern police departments, were both designed to control the behaviors of minorities. - Victor E. Kappeler, Ph.D.

And the fact is that I heard a small white kid out of his own mouth say to my step son "white people are better". So even though I do see progress that makes me proud to be an American. And even though individually, I'm perfectly happy with my income even though I'm still a little underpaid and the reason I was told I couldn't get the salary I was asking for was because it would "hurt morale" even though I was asking for basically entry level money for the average person in my position... I still believe we have to fight racism in order to limit the damage done to future generations. That kid who said that felt comfortable saying it around his father. One day he's just not going to say it but he could still make decisions that affect my children. So although it may not be a concern for you at all, It is a concern for me. I see racism being reinvigorated right now and us miscommunicating about "Seeing color" doesn't help the cause.

well this went nowhere fast didnt it zealot. Why do you think this is? where was the breakdown here, and by that I mean the breakdown in the issue discussion. please dont resort to personal attack in your reply or it will be an end of all discussion.

Fyxe wrote: well this went nowhere fast didnt it zealot. Why do you think this is? where was the breakdown here, and by that I mean the breakdown in the issue discussion. please dont resort to personal attack in your reply or it will be an end of all discussion.

dude, you should know by now that I'm not prone to personal attacks. I don't like it. To me personal attacks mean that person is "losing" the debate, if it is a debate. This is why I like speaking in generalizations because normally, I'm not directing what I say to a specific person. I have to say "you" or say your name.

Look... I know there are black people out there that you may have already encountered who blame whites for everything, who misrepresent history to some degree, who aren't masters of finance, and who would rather buy Jordans than stocks. But you cannot define an entire race based on a minority just like I can't say that all whites were slave owners when I know it was a minority of the population. So it was never, for me, about who deserves blame. It was about explaining how we got from point A to Z, which all parties should understand, prior to engaging in talks about solutions.

Because obviously I have no interest in going to war, theft, etc. in order to gain wealth. And even if I think reparations is a valid idea that doesn't mean there is a consensus on how it should be done. I would suggest either some kind of grant system for land/business ownership, tax rebate from money people already paid into the fed, or perhaps even something like tithing in Judaism where taxes from disenfranchised minority groups, who could prove a history of disenfranchisement in the supreme court, could then have their tax burden, for a period of time, be redirected to social programs for the poor in our own community. If the system were fair this wouldn't matter, but if we are giving our money away to the fed to make the right decisions of how to spend this money that we are paying into the system, we should have a reasonable expectation to have that money spent in ways that can revitalize and reinvest in our community. Bare minimum it would pay for community centers like the Boys and Girls clubs, and help create local jobs and training programs. I would create special certificate programs outside the normal expensive college system, paid for through these tax dollars and grants, that would allow black owned businesses to hire and further train the next generation with work study or apprenticeship programs where they can learn fields they want to get in while still be able to get paid and support their families; especially if the mother isn't receiving child support.

I could keep going as I have a lot of ideas that don't rely upon your money. But if you assume I'm asking for handouts then we can't even talk about other solutions.

But every discussion doesn't even have to be about solutions for the socio-economic condition of black people. It turned into that somehow based on a conversation about me simply suggesting that instead of saying "I don't see color" that people could say "I don't discriminate" instead. But what happens is that there are disagreements below the surface that rarely get to be voiced, because we, as a society, are somewhat timid to talk about this subject. We're either afraid of being called racist or afraid people will misunderstand when in reality there are always things we can both learn from each other but you can't be so busy assuming that your place is that of the teacher that you fail to listen. I'm willing to have those conversations about those things below the surface, but I'm going to explain what I believe isn't currently well understood. And if you've never heard about black wall street before, which a lot of people haven't, or you never heard the story of what happened to the black baseball leagues, that doesn't make you stupid or ignorant, it just means you may not have a complete picture. I want to help anyone who wants to, to have a more complete picture of the effects of racism so that we can build a better system. It doesn't have to be perfect. But I do want it to be better. Better for you and better for me. And better for our children.

I accept your positions and I acknowledge them as valid. I disagree with many of them though but I think the time to discuss them further is not right now.

At this point Ill agree to disagree and just send you some friendship love instead! Love ya as a friend and as an adversary and I think for now I shall end it right there!

Fyxe wrote: I accept your positions and I acknowledge them as valid. I disagree with many of them though but I think the time to discuss them further is not right now.

At this point Ill agree to disagree and just send you some friendship love instead! Love ya as a friend and as an adversary and I think for now I shall end it right there!

I feel the same. We can be aggravated and annoyed at each other sometimes but for whatever crazy reason I value our friendship over whatever thing we may choose to debate. I think we both enjoy the mental challenge and I know you are bright and intelligent. We don't need to agree with everything the other says. We just need to remind each other that we value each other's point of view. And I do.

Zealotx....They literally don't realize whiteness, privilege or supremacy even exists. It's a step even further back than having to define racism as a system of oppression rather than individual bigots negatively effecting individual lives of people of color based on a stereotypical shallow view of race.

Notice how all the fellow woke Jedi, and especially the clergy, came in to back you up?

If ever you wonder weather reconciliation between the alleged aims of the order and the actual material realities of the political positions its most "vocal" members tend to profess can ever come to fruition, I suggest you let the answer to that question be your guide.

KerouacsGhost wrote: Zealotx....They literally don't realize whiteness, privilege or supremacy even exists. It's a step even further back than having to define racism as a system of oppression rather than individual bigots negatively effecting individual lives of people of color based on a stereotypical shallow view of race.

Notice how all the fellow woke Jedi, and especially the clergy, came in to back you up?

If ever you wonder weather reconciliation between the alleged aims of the order and the actual material realities of the political positions its most "vocal" members tend to profess can ever come to fruition, I suggest you let the answer to that question be your guide.

On the contrary, its recognized, understood and targeted in manners which are not hypocritical, because hypocritical action leads to cyclical mechanisms of reaction. For discrimination happens to people, and it need not be any particular type of discrimination or person for it be more or less bad then if it were another type of discrimination or person. So something like systematic discrimination is the worst kind because it denotes widespread and persistent discrimination - but that is not measured by the width or persistence but rather the structures which enable its width and the cultures which enable its persistence. The danger of using terms of race like blackness or whiteness to project concepts like privilege onto those groups is not so much that it is quite literally discriminatory (racist), but its hypocrisy unwinds all the progress that has been made in removing the stain of discriminatory thought and behaviours carried from the past into today. So white privilege is such an inefficient term for its intended meaning to that extent that its inaccurate even though privilege does on occasion get given to whites. On occasion privilege gets given to blacks as well so yes there is a concept of black privilege also. What the difference is, is where it happens, why it happens and how much it happens right? But just because one might be more prevalent at one level of analysis does not mean it extends to all levels of analysis.... because its that category error done on the basis of difference which is the literal definition of discrimination. Accuracy is much more effective then broad labels being thrown around, and arguing for accuracy is not the denying of other more accurate models for other circumstances.

Post script to my above...
..that assumes one acknoweldges that other forms of racism and discrimination can be as harmful as racism against blacks, and as such one wouldn't endorse any type of discrimination onto anyone.

Another thing I think on is that I tend to expect victims of discrimination to be even more acutely aware of this, but understand that direct victims of any abuse experience a range of insecurities and even outright fear as a result of their suffering which impacts thoughts and behaviours. For me the way forward is not to coddle fears but understand them, remove mechanisms and habits of discrimination where possible, and protect victims from staying trapped in the same cyclical mindset that oppressors want of their victims to begin with, eg: nothing more a white supremacist wants then a black supremacist - to justify their toxic ideology.

KerouacsGhost,

Well, I'm glad someone gets it at least. I *FEEL* like a lot of people want to be able to tell victims of discrimination how to feel at the same time as downplaying the symptoms of that very oppression; and mainly because they don't want to feel guilty as being the perpetrators who are the root cause. And the thing is... I'm not saying they are the cause. I'm not blaming them. Racism continues because of participation as well as enabling. People turn a blind eye to it because it doesn't directly concern them or their family. They don't HAVE TO worry about it and so they don't. And because they don't worry about it, it is easier for them to compare others to themselves and think the problem is heavily exaggerated. But it's not. It's just that the people it's happening to can't help but to see it and not just see it but anticipate it. The form that anticipation takes can look to those who don't understand, like "black supremacy" or "reverse racism". The "black pride" that some people react to negatively is a compensation and coping mechanism in response to having the black identity ridiculed and attached to the equivalent of cattle.

So people get defensive but don't understand how black people really feel and what the many years of repeated ridicule, defamation, fear, etc. have done, not simply to us as individuals, but to our image as a collective group. The "medicine" those people who don't understand always prescribe is for us to behave as individualistic "exceptions" as if we are not black, as if we shouldn't even see our own "blackness" because they have deemed our "blackness" problematic. But it's not. We say black is beautiful, not because white isn't, but because white is the unspoken standard of beauty while black was constantly called ugly.

And so it is that we have had to react in ways to help maintain our very sanity; unified by the struggle against such malice and oppression, but also the struggle against apathy and those practicing quietness in the face of more than just comical stereotyping. I'm talking about negative attitudes that assume that because you're black, you must be on welfare... you're angry/violent... you're lazy... etc.; things that impact your ability to get and maintain jobs... unless you are "exceptional". And if you aren't exceptional, people assume you got the job because of "black privilege" or some kind of social safety that MUST HAVE saved you from your otherwise incompetence or lack of qualifications-when in reality, these same people thought to be unqualified often have to be more qualified (hence: "exceptional") just to get the same job or lower, with the same salary or lower.

The assumptions are assigned based on one race preaching an internal doctrine of superiority; especially intellectual, over not all races, but over the black "race". Black people are treated as individuals when a person claims not to see color, but treated as a race by all those who judge individuals by their racial assignment. And then they call the police as if that individual man, woman, boy, or girl, is a dangerous threat to society and then that makes the police a dangerous threat to us.

But the answer is not to pretend that people aren't black or white. This only feeds the ignorance and lulls the sleep and pacifies the contention so that they don't have to confront a problem that still exists. What they're pretending isn't simply that people aren't black, but they're pretending that they have no role or part to play in racism; whether pro or con. By pretending they excuse themselves from having to care or having that internal voice we call conscience, bug them. Because at any opportune moment they can say "it isn't me. I'm not racist. I don't see color." And so they invent a danger where danger doesn't exist. The danger to them is using terms of race. This is false. Terms of race already exist. The vase has already fallen off the counter and hit the floor. You can either glue it back together or you can throw it away. But you can't pretend it never fell in the first place. You can't put the genie back in the bottle after it has already granted the wish of enslaving a group of people because of the color of their skin, after it has already caused those same people to have extra hurdles when competing for jobs. You can't suddenly pretend they're not the same group that was labeled and oppressed. That happened. It happened. And because it happened there are consequences and effects of all those things that happened.

As a consequences and effect there are many white people who are outwardly and vocally racist. Many of them are children because they learned it from their parents and it wasn't rebuffed by their community at large. So they say racist things out loud because they feel comfortable enough to say it; not just because they don't fear those they're saying it to, but because they don't fear their own community reprimanding them. They are too used to hearing silence; the silence of so much pretending... so much "not seeing color". And so there are those who are sleeping through history and thus bystanders, watching it unfold. And at the same time there are those who are "woke". And I appreciate those people very much because they are the antibodies to bad viral ideas and they are the ones who change the world for the better. They're not always seen, not always heard, but I want you to know that they are appreciated.

And for anyone not already woke this was simply a wakeup call; an alarm clock to get up and stand up for liberty and justice for ALL. People who are sleep often get mad when the alarm goes off because they can't wait to hit the snooze button. The choice is yours.

Guess I'll explain my "Green" comment from above.

Not everything fits into your paradigm. Army Personnel are "trained" to see "Green", and not see the color of a person's skin. We were told not to see color any other color because we're all on the same team, your race doesn't matter on the battlefield, and since you train as you fight, it's best to get rid of your stereotypes. It doesn't mean we cannot see the beauty in celebrating our ethnic backgrounds (many do, cultural celebrations are set up as MWR events- and though my favorite was a small celebration I witnessed for a Black woman who had published her Black Poetry book; she read a couple to the people in attendance).

On the civilian side, however, we can't really count you as "Green". You aren't a part of the "Green" culture. Though we will show the same respect to the other services- except the CG ! *laughingly sneers* Unicorns. But seriously- not everything is about whether or not someone is racist. The very first person I ever heard say "Who's black? I don't see colors, I just see Green" was a Black Drill Sergeant. The first person I ever heard say "What female? I just see soldiers." was a Black Male First Sergeant.

So when a Veteran says they "don't see color", it has nothing to do with systematic racism. It has nothing to do with whether or not they recognize white people on average have greater privileges. It's about saying "I recognize you are my equal".

Now you civilians that say it? I can't speak for you. I can only hope that when you say it, you actually mean the same thing we veterans do. But hope and truth are not necessarily the same thing.

I think it could be helpful to have a point of clarity here.

When someone with left leaning politics uses words like racism whiteness and privilege, the meaning of these words is very different than what they appear to mean from outside of that paradigm.

The effect is very similar to when someone says that evolution is just a "theory" not a fact. The scientific community has a very specific meaning and definition attached to the word "theory" which distinguishes it from the assumed meaning of those outside that community in such a way that "theory" becomes (almost) synonymous with fact.

When someone says evolution is not a fact it's just a "theory," those of us with proper social training will giggle silently to our internal child. Those without will laugh out loud as if you had said gravity was just a "theory" or heliocentricism was just a "theory."

The reason this language inspires laughter is because it makes clear that the person speaking doesn't know some basic facts about critical things.

Social science is the branch of science devoted to the study of human societies and the relationships among individuals within those societies.

In social science power is the capacity of an individual to influence the behavior of others. A power structure is an overall system of influence between individuals within any selected group.

A power structure may be a formal or an informal set of roles organized by centralized aggression to create a ranking system wherein some are given access to rights and privileges while others are not, such as those found in a dominance hierarchy. Or, a power structure may be a formal or an informal set of roles organized by equality and decentralization to create a social structure which aims to maximize freedom and liberty for all rather than for a chosen group.

A culture that is organized in a dominance hierarchy is a dominator culture, as opposed to a culture of partnership based in equality and decentralized authority/governance/power and mutual aid.

Critical theory is the social science which studies power structures. It argues that social problems are influenced and created more by social structures than by individual factors.

Critical race theory (CRT ) is a theoretical framework in the Social sciences that uses critical theory to examine society and culture as they relate to race, law, and power.

CONCLUSION:
I AM NOT saying that you should agree with CRT.
I AM NOT saying that you should agree with Critical Theory.
I AM NOT saying that you should value the social sciences.

What I am saying:

There are scientific bodies of knowledge which attempt to study cultural and social phenomena. When it comes to the issue of race Critical Race Theory is that body of study.

If you are arguing against the notion that white supremacy and racism were not only a foundational element of the society in which we now live but also that the power structures maintained by race have material consequences and therefore measurable empirical bodies of evidence to support these claims, then you are arguing against CRT.