Is Trumps Boarder Wall Antithetical To Jedi Doctrine?

When I was a kid the PC message was for white people to stop seeing black people as black and just see them as people. The goal post has changed in this generation and unfortunately, not everyone has caught up to it. Please try to understand that when white people talk about not seeing color it is coming from a place of trying to be on black people’s side.

Temple challenge from Pastor Carlos


I’ve since long stopped using color to describe people. It changed a lot for me. It continues - which is proof for me to continue and encourage others to as well- it’s a challenge worth trying.

Feel free to shoot me the bird or a pm or both. Love ya Temple.

Feel free to ignore this post as well.

KerouacsGhost wrote: If you are arguing against the notion that white supremacy and racism were not only a foundational element of the society in which we now live but also that the power structures maintained by race have material consequences and therefore measurable empirical bodies of evidence to support these claims, then you are arguing against CRT.

I'm not sure anyone is talking about it. The only tools to change society are policy and education. Some of that can only be done individually and some of it only within organizations. How these things are approached represents the outcomes quite heavily, and so it's important to be clear and concise about the present day to improve it. The past has valuable lesson's and obviously was the foundation for the present, but it shouldn't define the future IMO.

OB1Shinobi wrote: When I was a kid the PC message was for white people to stop seeing black people as black and just see them as people. The goal post has changed in this generation and unfortunately, not everyone has caught up to it. Please try to understand that when white people talk about not seeing color it is coming from a place of trying to be on black people’s side.

The PC culture does occasionally get things wrong. Hard to believe.

And it is somewhat natural to society to overreact before finding the right balance. As an agent of balance, I understand that's where you guys are coming from, I appreciate the positive intentions as well as the heart from where it comes from. I'm only advocating a better approach in the name and interests of accomplishing the goal.

Because unfortunately, I don't know how many black people the PC crowd actually consulted before coming up with that message. What they got right is that black people do want to be seen as people. "Black people". You can emphasize the people part but its mainly about understanding that black people are people too; people just like you, and therefore should be treated with the same dignity and respect that you would treat each other with. Because the goal is for us all to be "each other" and not have a separation based on color or sexual orientation or what other isms that turn into schisms.

But the reason there is gay pride and black pride is not about running away or hiding from these different identities but actually celebrating what was once viewed in a very negative and stigmatizing sort of way and if you can't say it... like its a profane word... then it's like that word still has power and its still just as negative as it was before. This is why black people took the "N-word", changed it, and put it to use. A lot of people don't understand that but for us, it allows us to change its meaning and takes the negative power and energy away from the original N-word, which should never be used outside of educational purposes.

Again... black is a positive thing. White is a positive thing (don't let anyone tell you different). Gay being positive for Gay people doesn't make being straight into the new gay or something that is less positive or valued. White and black is the same. But, like being straight, the value of being white is "baked" into society by default. It's a given. It is the default standard of beauty and success. Meanwhile, non-whites kind of have to work harder (in terms of marketing) to be seen in the same (equal) light. And hence more vocalization on those fronts.

But some people get defensive as if the black pride is an attack on whites OR even that gay pride is an attack on straight people, on the institution of marriage, etc. It's basically a reactionary reflex based, imo, on fear.

And I'll admit that because I'm not white it's hard for me to imagine how it could be hard or in anyway negative to be white or seen as white when "I feel" like white people (if we're considering the pre-existing but imaginary racial group construct) are winning and have almost all the power, wealth, etc. So that grass looks pretty green to me; not enough that I wish I was white but simply because I think many of us wonder how life might be better if we were white or, at least, weren't stigmatized. That's why when I hear things like "All Lives Matter" I'm like, really? No one said anything to the contrary so why would/should anyone take "black lives matter" that way? But again... its hard to foresee that particular reflex when your intentions had nothing to do with disparaging another group of people; but rather saying that black people are being mistreated by the police specifically regarding this black identity. Not only can they (physically) see color just fine they often (NOT ALL officers, but too many) treat people of color differently (including Hispanics).

Again... people trying to be PC police ignore the actual intent and purpose because they're too busy being offended and end up saying or doing something that is also offensive and makes things worse. And everyone is capable of "creating sides" and doing this in an effort to do the right thing. But at the end of the day we all just need to consult each other so that we can understand each other. Because you can be "PC" without having a single black friend. But "POLITICS" should not be the bar or standard. Why be satisfied with that? I'm suggesting that our standards should be higher and based on real relationships and talking to each other and understanding each other and treating each other how the other person wants to be treated as well as how we want to be treated too.

Such should be the life of a Jedi.

Haha, no I don't think its a case necessarily of people being left behind and 'unwoke'. Rather proper use of language to avoid abuse of language.

I feel like I'm on the other side of the argument, not being from the US or having been there I feel I'm spared the baggage of its racist wounds, at the expense of less exposure to the issues - but that said I've got some experience with industrial human rights in regards to discrimination, so my motives are moving the conversation forward, as it appears the US is sort of going around in circles on the issue. It gives me the benefit of critical eyes looking at the issue in terms from other different types of cultural and organisational discrimination.

As a Jedi though it's a bit deeper which goes to complicate the issue perhaps for others trying to understand the details of my point. I not only do not see black (or white etc) as a person, I also don't see nationality as a person, or (most challenging) don't see species! Well actually the most challenging is not seeing mortality but that is a whole other paradigm. I see life force, in a vehicle... a bit ghost in the shell-esk perhaps. Not to say they are distinct things, but in defining the person as an individual I find it's the individual rather then their associations which most define them.

My point, these things are just labels, and inherent to my Jedi path is looking beyond the vehicle of somethings existence and seeing the expression of that existence. So discussing labels is more about the effective use of labels, which goes to include the avoidance of abusive use of them.

And in that regard 'What is black'; is it a culture or is it an individual? A label without definition is a very bad label as I'm not a big fan of the over-use of simplifications - it tends to lead to confusion and abuse IMO. If its the an individual, then whom is it? I would have thought it would be a 'race', in which case its just the large collection of associated cultures and genetic history and their present day social constructs and descendants. An individual cannot be a race, but instead can be of a race AFAIK.

So if black is a race, and an individual cannot be a race.... then I don't pretend to see an individual as something they are not.... even if I do understand they might be part of a race. Even if an individual is part of a race, they do not represent the race beyond their own participation and knowledge within and of it? A black person is just a person who is of the black culture. If I'm interested in the black culture then I will look for the black in the individual, but if I'm interested in the individual then I will look past all the labels and associations, even black.

TLDR; defining people by their group participation (chosen or otherwise) is the same mechanism as discrimination. If it can be avoided it should be, because its easy for it to be abused and be discriminatory (or misinterpreted as discriminatory).

@Adder


With you not being from the US I can appreciate your position as far as not being exposed to racism in the US and its varied dynamics. For you, the information I provide may sound more anecdotal. But I hope you can sense from me that I am not a person that jumps to extremes and overreacts to things. And having traveled to Canada and Jamaica I would say that the situation in not globally "white vs black" but is rather a regional affliction.

I have referred to racism many times in this thread, as a "viral idea". I want you to hold on to that thought while I provide some extra context that may help you better understand where I'm coming from. Bear with me and feel free to ask additional questions.

Right now I'm wearing a mask but around my neck; not over my face. Company policy currently states that we have to wear a mask when we walk around, especially from one dept to another. There is also an office part and a factory party. The factor is our metaphoric "field" (slave reference to the cotton fields) and the office is the metaphoric "house" (reference to the slave master's large residence). This separation creates 2 distinct regions or zones in which the company is divided. Because I work in the "house" I'm very much disconnected with the lives, the trials, the pressures, the struggles of those working in the factory ("the field"). I'm much better compensated than they are, partially due to education, experience, and specialization. This creates a state of relative privilege that comes with protections and comfort. This adds to the separation.

Hold this image in your mind. It will help you understand.

There are areas of the United states that we can also separate into similar zones. As you know, the South fought against the North for the right to own slaves (but people from the American south will often disagree and say that it was about "states rights" but in reality it was about the right of states to own slaves). Within that North vs South divide you have metropolitan vs rural; places where those fields are literal fields and where the houses are office buildings. You have corporations with factories and offices, often separated by thousands of miles. It's a different world and yet... the divisions often survive.

I just moved from Dayton, Ohio to Middletown which is between Dayton and Cincinnati. Cincinnati borders a Southern state. The further you go out of the city... even in Dayton, into areas where the population is 80-90% white and maybe 4-6% black, you're more likely to run into hardcore racists. Yes, we could say that one is either racist or not but its more like all racists have the virus but not all people with the virus are displaying symptoms. And as the virus spreads in the body there is a time when it hasn't really taken root yet in the lungs and may just be in a person's sinuses. Likewise, a lot of children hear older people talk and those ideas get into their brain but they haven't fully taken root yet and their symptoms may be mild depending on their immune system.

This is where having a good character is similar to a healthy immune system because your good character protects you from different ideas which are either criminal or immoral. So a lot of people think to themselves, that they could never be racist and use how they think of themselves to doubt racism in others. It's kind of like thinking "I don't have corona so I doubt most people around me have corona". And that may be true. AROUND YOU. However, if you go to places with a dense population there are places where the conditions for spreading any sort of virus are much greater. And if you don't know what's in those people's heads and they don't know what's in yours because you're not from where they are, then you may not hear them sneeze or cough because they're sneezing into their elbow or they're wearing a "mask" (metaphoric). Just because someone is a racist doesn't mean they're proud to be and want everyone and their momma to know they are. Most racism is very much in the closet because those people are afraid of losing their jobs. In areas where most people are racist however, the consequences of getting caught are highly diminished because most other people around that person are too and therefore they don't care. So, in Dayton, for example, there are areas where racism got a hell of a lot more vocal after Trump was elected. That doesn't mean it didn't exist there before, but that their comfort level went higher. A single person waving a pitchfork is a lunatic. A mob with pitchforks and torches... is a mob.

If there is no Frankenstein (or his monster) then those people are simply the "innocent townsfolk" and see themselves as the good guys. If they perceive a monster then only in the presence of the monster do they get threatened and typically in a group, that's when the pitchforks and torches appear. Black people were made into the monster by racist propaganda. It doesn't matter what name or label you give to the monster if, at the end of the day, it scares you. That's why the label doesn't matter. "Black, brown..." these are just colors and there is nothing inherently wrong with a color. Right? So the problem is mental connection between the color and the "monster"; in other words... the fear that produces hate.

Only when a person can be confused for white (because they're extremely light skinned), only then, do we see their color not being seen (in American society). Many light skin people have historically passed for white in order to get better treatment and in some cases use that to help their people. And because they were still connected with their people by blood and culture, they were still "black" and that label still connects us today.

At the same time there is still field vs house. And there have always been poor whites working in the "field" (factories, mines, etc) and only a few blacks who ever get to work in the house. And no, as long as there are poor whites in the field there must be at least the same proportion of blacks in the field. But what is unfair is if there are extra hurdles put into the path of black people that are based on their color; because of someone's fear or hatred. If the person doing the hiring is a racist then they can easily impact these numbers and help to control who gets what job. And let's be real. In many industries and jobs its about who you know. Because a lot of racism is a mask on top of class warfare (with, imho, wealthier whites preferring that poor whites and blacks hate and blame each other rather than targeting them) a lot of it is related to jobs and income. The propaganda against blacks was therefore created to hinder our ability to get jobs, leading to the widespread (among black people) idea that we always have to be over qualified to compete for the same jobs. However.... overqualified can mean more expensive and can be a reason not to hire on that basis. So if the organization has plenty of cash (like the government) or health industry that's where more black people are likely to find good jobs. And some of these industries are more heavily regulated which also helps with equality in labor practices.

If white people have the idea that black people are desperate for them to like us, they would be mistaken. It's about fair opportunities so that we can live, prosper, and feed our families. The difficulty of that proposition often depends on where you live or work. I went to college in the South, at a school that was made specifically for black people because they weren't ready (or willing) to integrate in a way that was fair. I grew up in a church that is still segregated to this day at the local conference level. Part of the reason we say it's systematic because if there is racism at different levels of "the system" (education, health, etc.) then that presents minorities with challenges that others simply don't have to face. When combined with the same challenges that everyone has to face, regardless of race or gender, it creates a smaller funnel the less people can get through; not making success impossible, but more of a struggle. And when it's institutions like banks or housing or the police... it makes it more difficult, and that is something that is avoidable by society, not something that minorities should be forced to live with. In other words, racism is a viral idea that is worth fighting against, either through immunization or social distancing (from racists) and the opposite... i.e. socializing with people from all cultures, backgrounds, income brackets, etc so that we all understand each other and realize how much we have in common.

I am grateful to be here, to be part of this mostly enlightened community, and to have the pleasure of communicating with you guys. I mean that sincerely. It is an honor. Thank you for your time and patience!

Labels are not necessarily the product of fear or hate - but yes racist labels are, and racists seem to use labels derived from fear or hate. That though doesn't mean we should abandon proper use of labels, just because some misuse some labels... and by giving ones self identity over to the group identity. That just creates more or stronger division ie making the fear derived labels even stronger by clinging to them to form stronger group boundaries.

I wish it were as simple as ignoring the past pain and doing the right thing, but how people define right is going to be a mix of self interest and group interest... in how they define themselves. And if people use group identity to define themselves then they tend to inherit the struggles of the group - for its those dynamics which tend to define a group. The problem I think is when the person mixes the group struggle for the individual struggle.
Like any struggle, there are good ways to deal with them and bad ways. Mob rule is not a good rule because a mob is a poorly defined and unorganized group driven by some trace of purpose. A clearly defined group purpose means those within it are participants of the problem causing the struggle, but not all black people are net victims of racism, just like not all white people are net beneficiaries of racism.... so race is not the best group to associate directly to levels of discrimination. Not forgetting discrimination happens in various ways to all sorts of people, and each type can be as devastating to the individual as the other. There are plenty of white people who've been destroyed by discrimination and achieved no benefit from any privilege, at no fault of their own. This is the sort of thing I mean about proper use of labels being effective use of labels. It's just easier to show how bad ones don't work then how good ones do, but that doesn't mean I'm ignorant of, arguing against the existence of, or denigrating the extent and impact of it.

For everyone I guess it's more about being a good role model for peace, and working to ensure the hard and sharp edges are worked down over time to smooth things out so no-one gets hurt in the future.... so its important not to get caught up in the identity politics of the stakeholders in struggles to best achieve this. Minds are easy to change, but changing society takes getting in, doing the hard work and making systems work better to solve these problems. Solving the individual struggles at the individual level, whether it aligns with the group or not.

I tend to use the idea of the Force instead of self or group, to approach a concept of essence identity, and define all the iterations as natured aspects of that essence (ie nature). Jedi is my path using the Force in the naturing environment to facilitate that naturing and balance competing forces into supporting forces. So its things which blur support and promote competition which tend to make me explore the dynamics of the argument. Competition has a place, but in many context it leads to conflict, so I feel its a bit like bread and butter for a Jedi to avoid progression into the 'fear to anger to hate to suffering' Yodaism :lol:

I don't know much about the USA.

I imagine it has a bunch of divides.

Some racial, by design or convenience, some maybe of any other design or convenience.

JD Vance is a chubby white republican who went to Yale (I don't know what kind of place Yale is, but it might mean something to people closer to it)

he wrote a book - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillbilly_Elegy

I'm not going to try to quote it or represent his version of events in any particular way, but it was mildly interesting (may be less interesting, may be more interesting if you're "local" to the circumstances) in terms of considering how the USA's cultural divides work.

I'm not suggesting he's the last word on the subject - he's just some guy who wrote a book - but I guess it paints the picture that race or skin colour isn't really the issue at all (even if it is occasionally used as a handy concept to rally around, for one party or another)

Adder wrote: And if people use group identity to define themselves then they tend to inherit the struggles of the group - for its those dynamics which tend to define a group. The problem I think is when the person mixes the group struggle for the individual struggle.

Let's use ourselves as an example. By calling ourselves Jedi, what does that mean? I can't speak for you. I can only speak on what it means to me and there are probably multiple threads voicing numerous opinions. But what it means to me is that there is a shared culture. It may or may not involve a fictional mythology. But it is a term that unites us. Binds us.

Because we value and respect this label we view it as good thing and magnify the positive context and nature. But our internal vision of this term for ourselves does not rule or define how others (outsiders) view it, or us through it. Some people think it's funny. But guess what? I don't care. Because they don't get to define the term Jedi. I do that by the way I live it. Just as you do and so many others. We define ourselves. And we define the term that unites us. To allow others to do so gives them power. And so I would never change the name just to avoid criticism or judgment or comedy at my/our expense. And truly if someone makes fun of you for being a Jedi then they are also making fun of me because I am the same. And guess what? I'm proud of that. It doesn't bother me at all. It doesn't matter if it's negative to other people because it is positive to us. Do you see?

Now does it mean that by being a Jedi we somehow lose sight of our personal struggle vs the group? Not at all. If you get attacked for some personal reason does that mean the Jedi have been attacked? No. But if you were attacked for being a Jedi then it does mean the Jedi are being attacked. Do you see?

If someone refused to hire you because you have bad credit and a felony on your record that's a personal problem. But if someone refused to hire you because you are a Jedi then it's not just a personal problem. It's a group problem because it is the group that is being discriminated against and you are simply a representative of that group which means your case could have happened to any one of us. Therefore, instead of waiting for it to happen randomly to the rest of us we can proactively defend ourselves. Do you see?

The difference between being a Jedi and being black is this. Everything I just said applies except "black" is not something you can easily hide; at least not in person. You can't choose to stop being black. You are black. People aren't going to ask you how you see yourself or if you associate with being black before they treat you the same way they treat all black people because their generalizations and stereotypes don't just apply to those who "accept" the label. In America, people don't give a crap about you or what you think if you belong to a group they don't like. Period. You're not going to change their mind or change anything when the one thing about you they don't like is something you can't change. If they see you as the monster, it's not because of a label but rather "the fear of the other", because you're different from them and because they are ignorant.

There are a lot of men that would rather be women and vice versa. Just like there are some black people who bleach their skin in some misguided effort to look white. A gender issue could be the real result of hormones or some biological malformation or imbalance. But with race, it's not about how you feel. It's about your DNA and what it said about you before you were even born. You can try to hide it but you can't change it and trying to do so IS a personal/psychological problem. But not only that, it is mainly a non-acceptance of self based on the influence of the larger society.

I understand your desire to address the treatment of others on an individual level but here's why that's not the best idea. Just like Corona cases you can only try to limit the spread and the fatalities. Every human gets to make mistakes. And if a doctor or a police officer or a judge or a lawyer or a banker all make mistakes in only 1% of cases then it make look like they're doing a good job. And a lot of people think this is okay because they are unlikely to be in that 1%. But if that 1% is due to racism and not really a mistake but an intentional conscious or unconscious bias then for black people it's not 1%. It make be 4-5% if it was 1%. It may be 20-30 percent if it was 4%. It may be 50-60% if it was 6%. I'm not trying to be numerically accurate (way too much work). I'm just trying to show you that what may look okay to the outside world is definitely not okay if you judge racists by individualistic standards. Because again, the math from your perspective may look tolerable but from our perspective it is not.

Another example of this. Serial Killers and Mass Murderers. A lot of people die every single day; so many that we are numb to a certain degree and ignore it. 1,000 people die and its not national news. Some people are so numb to death that its like who cares if someone shoots up a school and kills a bunch of kids. Kids die all the time too, right? But I bet those kids at that school care. Those are their friends and classmates and if it could happen at one school it could happen at many others. Most countries don't even have school shootings at all. What's wrong with the US? So, understanding that we cannot stop mass murders in general we actually do a pretty damn good job at stopping terrorist plots (foreign at least). But of course the FBI doesn't necessarily get credit for all the domestic plots they manage to prevent. But if we should simply accept the reality that people die every day then why invest in police, hospitals, etc. Why not just let nature take it's course? Because if we CAN help... if we CAN prevent bad things from happening, then... shouldn't we? As a society do we not have a duty or responsibility to protect each other? At the very least, we should protect those who are more vulnerable and form a strong force to combat strong forces that arise to do us harm. Alcohol kills even though its legal; even though it is safe if used responsibly. Still, there is AA, MAD, and other organizations out there to fight alcohol abuse. PETA fights for the protection of animals. Animals also die every day, often by other animals. And sometimes it seems like animals are definitely treated better than humans.

So, to me, it isn't tolerable to address these issues on an individual level and only bother with how people in general are being treated. Because if you can't tell there is a problem you can't fix it. And if you're too busy trying not to see color you wont see when people of color are getting mistreated because of their color. Nor is that mistreatment somehow going to magically disappear if they recant their color like some kind of Christian heretic facing the inquisition. Should they also give up their association with Jesus in order to gain better treatment? Of course not. They're not the ones who are wrong so why should they change themselves?

https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/Jediism/123775-what-does-it-mean-to-be-a-modern-day-jeddist

The more removed an individual is from the cause, the less information about it they have, and the less impact they can have on the cause. It's not wrong to share the group struggle... but it would seem best to do so only in an effective manner, otherwise it becomes something else - a group dynamic and using the group identity as the main reference is just becoming a tool of the group narrative, in effect a slave to agenda. But I think the main difficulty faced, at the individual level reality, is knowing the reason for peoples actions - for it's rarely what they claim. Getting caught up in the narratives 'to' conflict 'as' the conflict is a mistake usually because its prone to manipulation. People mistreat each other constantly for mostly selfish reasons, and they choose whatever narrative to conflict that they think will work best, race, skin color, football team, body shape, accent etc etc. A downside of being a victim is the wounds, and one of those is that suffering alters how one perceives the world by increasing sensitivity to potential threats by actively seeking out characteristics which might serve to provide early warning. The downside of that is, when it does misrepresents the reality it at best just maintains the existing anxiety, but at worst serves to instigate problems where none might have been. So it's not about victims changing to fix others, it's more about victims changing to fix themselves ie healing their pain by minimizing its unneeded manifestation within them. The misuse of labels can be the result of pain or the cause of it, and so IMO it's better to be most accurate wherever possible and avoid at all costs loose group identity associations against individuals. Another side effect is it easily can misrepresent the scale of the problem, which is one of the mechanisms used by groups in creating division - which creates unnecessary pain for existing victims and unwinds the hard work done by those who fought, and are fighting actual discrimination.

The answer to the topic title is "yes."
Good day.

"a group dynamic and using the group identity as the main reference is just becoming a tool of the group narrative, in effect a slave to agenda. "


There is a lot of complexity that has been developed within black culture that considers all of these points you raised. Unfortunately, it makes black culture, "to some", sound racist when it is not. It is a reaction, just like how your body reacts to a cut or abrasion. It would give power to "the enemy" (racism and its biological tools) to approach "blackness" the same way the enemy does. Therefore, it is a positive thing because WE say it is and we have to take control of that narrative. If you say, "I'm not black because black is associated with negative stereotypes" then you're playing into the anti-black racist narrative and allowing it to dictate how you see one of the few word that is applied to a group that you didn't choose but were born into. When a black person accepts the idea that there is something wrong with being "black" when everything in their environment identifies them as such, whether they accept it or not, then it robs them of self-esteem.

And I don't know if you were ever bullied in school, but for those of us who were at one point, we know that bullies belittle others to make themselves look good or to distract attention from something they perceive to be wrong with them. In their cowardice they would rather offer another sacrifice to be ridiculed in their stead; to keep the spotlight of attention away from them. Parents sometimes tell their children to avoid the bully but in a school that can be next to impossible. And then it teaches you to live in a state of fear. When the bully knows they're getting to you or making you scared, that's when they feel most powerful. And the bully often takes advantage of their own size compared to the kid they're bullying. Bullying a more muscular kid is rarely ever done.

In terms of culture, early US white culture bullied black culture using its size (population). So black culture had to react. Some people got literally lynched while everyone else was made fun of for having big lips and dark skin. This is where blackface came out of. In middle school I told myself I wasn't black. I was brown. Because I choose to take the color literally. I'm literally brown skinned. However, black is bigger than that. Black represents more than a physical trait. It represents both the culture and the struggle. And the struggle is like the fire that purifies gold. No one wants to struggle, but looking back you can be proud of your struggles, your trials, your tribulations, because it helps to make you the person you are.

"But Z, you weren't ever personally a slave so how is it your struggle?"

Good question.

When 911 happened it happened to America. That even had consequences and repercussions that lasted long into the future. Two of my step kids were born on 911. They may not have lost anyone that day or were there to see what happened, but it is still a part of their history, just like the revolutionary war and other major events. Consequences of some of these events can have financial/economic effects. The problem with racism is that it created a social virus that spawns and maintain negative stereotypes that make life more difficult for even those 911 little girls who had to hear racist remarks at school. And yes... they're only 7.

While we get a sense of pride; even as a people who have had their history stolen and most often not knowing what tribe or even country in Africa we came from, the negative side... how people treat "black" people is something that continues to inform us. It gives us a sense of our reality even as it joins and diverges from the realities of other Americans. The Irish had it hard too, for awhile. However, they are now accepted as just as white as others. Understanding what "your people" have been through and how they are viewed and treated is important information to help you navigate life and situations and help you get where you're going. Maybe you can't go in through the front door, but have to use the back. Or maybe a kid sees sports or entertainment as a way out of the ghetto because they simply haven't seen enough black scientists (which is one of the reasons I love seeing Neil Degrasse Tyson).

Yes, we had a black president. However, how many attacks were made against the Obamas because of their race? There were a lot. You just can't close your eyes to that stuff because that is just as ignorant as many of the people who are racist. They're racist, mainly, because they're ignorant (and possible somewhat isolated). An individual should always see themselves as BOTH and individual and as a member of a larger group/organism. That could be something as simple as a family unit, a company, or something as large as a nation. We are all individuals, but being part of something greater is how we work together to make things better. There is value in both and the value of one increases the value of the others. So because I'm a strong independent individual I bring my own value to the black community just as they bring greater value to me and I can appreciate their accomplishments and influences on culture; both in the micro sense and also in the macro. We are all part of the universes but composed of atomic galaxies. So we should definitely appreciate the individuality but never loses sight of that which holds us and binds us together.

Jedi Believe
In the Force, and in the inherent worth of all life within it.

In the sanctity of the human person. We oppose the use of torture and cruel or unusual punishment, including the death penalty.

In a society governed by laws grounded in reason and compassion, not in fear or prejudice.

In a society that does not discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation or circumstances of birth such as gender, ethnicity and national origin.

In the ethic of reciprocity, and how moral concepts are not absolute but vary by culture, religion, and over time.

In the positive influence of spiritual growth and awareness on society.

In the importance of freedom of conscience and self-determination within religious, political and other structures.

In the separation of religion and government and the freedoms of speech, association, and expression.




What do ya do when the world DOESNT subscribe to “our” faiths and practices?

Do we continue ? Why learn ? Why try ?


These are the other questions for me. The ones that change - me not others.

I wish I could change others - most time I won’t. Most times they won’t change. What better way than to leave a example behind?

It keeps me from getting salty and using words -
That just create sides - like using color as a discription for/ or race.

#getbetter I say but that’s my modern day Jeddist practice in real life - getting better. That’s just me and I usually am alone but that’s ok too!

Although I don’t have the time, patience or interest in replying to each and every comment, I am reading them all and making an attempt to understand the various ideas presented so far. Thank you all for contributing to this discussion. Especially some of those I’ve been a bit crass with. Your willingness to continue contributing gives me hope that I may have been incorrect in some of my initial assumptions.

No one here seems to disagree that the United States was founded on the racialized violence of genocide and slavery.

If I am wrong in this assessment please, make your voice heard and highlight some nuance you feel is misunderstood or not being brought up at all. No single person or group or paradigm has a monopoly on truth and it is simply impossible for one human being to consider all factors.

Where there seems to be a disagreement is between those who do believe and those who do not believe in the existence of racialized power structures in the present day.

Some of you seem to maintain a belief that slavery was abolished after the American civil war which gave rise to a colorblind class-free utopia wherein ones race immediately fell away as a contributing factor to negative life experiences. If this was true how would you explain racially focused systems of violence and control and domination which persisted after the civil war? How do you explain Jim Crow laws? How do you explain segregation? How do you explain the racial wealth gap? How to you explain mass incarceration, what author Michelle Alexander correctly identifies as The New Jim Crow?

If you’re in this camp I encourage you to consider the very specific wording in the 13th amendment. Where most believe slavery is said to be abolished, it is not. Instead what you will see is that what was amended were the conditions by which slavery could be legally continued. What followed from that historical moment, making use of the legal system to re-enslave black people, has continued to this day.


As you may be able to see in the above quote, the institution of slavery was given special conditions rather than being abolished with the passing of the 13th amendment.




Anyone of the opinion that, in modern America, a person’s race does not contribute to a degradation of well-being and an increase in suffering as a result of both direct experiences of prejudice as well as indirect and widespread institutional oppression (A.K.A Racism) ,which mirrors exactly the structure of a dominance hierarchy as described by social science, is simply unaware of what they are talking about.

These patterns of genocide and slavery present themselves almost everywhere in the history of Post-Neolithic revolutionary civilized social structures maintained by organized dominance hierarchies making contact with traditional indigenous social structures organized around autonomy and partnerships/mutual aid.

In North America, this is not only the history of indigenous people and black people. The legacy of economic and governmental power structures founded in racialized genocidal slavery are the root of the Immigration phenomena this post was original focused on.

The people currently housed in detention facilities for no other reason than the circumstance of their birth (something this Jedi order is HIGHLY opposed to as I understand) were in North America thousands of years before Columbus initiated the conquest out of which our Nation emerged. In other words, the Latino people today being rounded up and incarcerated in mass are the great grandchildren of Indigenous societies from whom the land that is historically their birthright is being governed, policed and militarized by a Nation who’s only claim to legacy is murder, rape and theft. All the while being labeled as “Illegals” who are accused of wrongdoing simply because they still exist on their own homeland.

Their primary "crime" in the eyes of the U.S is the crime of surviving genocide. And their journey north is nothing other than brave and heroic. A hero's journey if you will. Your are all familiar with that one i assume.



If you support Trumps wall, or if you presume that the Us Gov. has a legitimate claim to authority to police "its" boarders, you are siding with the values and physical structures of domination with historical ties to racialized genocide and slavery which are still in operation presently.

The boarder is a physical manifestation of racialized dominance hierarchy founded genocide and perpetuated through systems of slavery we call detention and incarceration.

One of the better lines in the latest SW saga for me was when Poe was asked .."You were a spice runner?" his response is you were a storm trooper? Ray says you were a spice runner? and Poe says you were a scavenger... we could do this all day...

So I am American, I was born on the streets of Texas. Thats no longer who I am. I was born in the Darkness - yet i did not stay there and I no longer "stay there."

As I grow and study and learn I encourage all to do the same. I know where my country comes from. I know. Any one can know. Any one can learn where they are from. Mine did and took alot of shaking hands and talking to surviving members of groups and organisations.

So, I can not disagreeing on your assessment of Americas past. Like any human, a bit of looking at the spoon we are fed can result in A LOT.
Like any one willing to admit, the past can be that , the past. Dwelling there can result in many different things. Dont stay at a place that keeps ya too long in ... a place you dont wanna be.

Thats one of the JOYS of the Heros Journey for me - I learn these story's... so I DONT end up like the characters I choose not to be.

One of the ideas is to NOT SAY THERE. Yea we come from thieves and murders, direclty,.....so do I.
Why stay there?
Ever fed the hungry?
Every given from inside?


I can validate - every war I have been in, some one has gotten rich. Every war some one does.Every war, that position , that part in the story will always be there.

For me, micromanaging comes in many forms. For me. Letting things like other peoples choices get under my skin has been a real thing for me in the real world as well as in the Jeddist world. I dont like the wall, but im trying not to let it make me salty. I know people pissed at the sun. I know people just as salty about my family. I know salty people in this very Temple. They are every where.

My dad is Customs in Lerado Tx. Its real to me. Ive lived in border towns. Im half and half and both halfs wernt American. Here I am. My home is just as decorated for patriotic days and holidays as the Army let me decorate my own dress greens.

We can point out much in our very own search. Thats what searching is. Thats what thinking does.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE
Dont forget, Jeddist are smart. If we choose people to do things, and then be scrupulous or it throws us off... It may be something else more ... like... us.
Statements like ..." IF YOU DO THIS ... then that means you...." are always dangerous for me. Leading.

I know the names of the people who were the enemy labeled not by me. I was the difference there. My hope is what we find and what we learn can free us more than ... Lead us.
May the Force CONTINUE to be with you.
Pastor Carlos

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=you+were+a+spice+runner%3f&ru=%2fvideos%2fsearch%3fq%3dyou%2bwere%2ba%2bspice%2brunner%253f%26FORM%3dHDRSC3&view=detail&mid=D1CB04C9DD412DEFE852D1CB04C9DD412DEFE852&rvsmid=3FD294B2767FF215B3FE3FD294B2767FF215B3FE&FORM=VDQVAP


Not our vidoe and we didnt make it nor did i post it so it may expire .

Carlos Martizes: Comments appear in bold italics
KerouacsGhost: Comments appear in default text

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote: One of the better lines in the latest SW saga for me was when Poe was asked .."You were a spice runner?" his response is you were a storm trooper? Ray says you were a spice runner? and Poe says you were a scavenger... we could do this all day...
So I am American, I was born on the streets of Texas. Thats no longer who I am. I was born in the Darkness - yet i did not stay there and I no longer "stay there."

Just to be sure im following so far, you seem to be saying just that the past is behind us so why not move on and not dwell over something that is not happening anymore. I hope I am understanding you correctly.

That is a good point. I see a lot of value in being able to focus my breath and return to the present moment whenever i find myself ruminating on old problems that were never solved or arguments that never ended or emotional patterns that are conducive to the path of well-being . I breathe deeply, notice the quality of life jump, at light-speed, from 420 to 1080 and when my eyes reopen I am truly born anew.

And, in these Mindful Moments i cannot help but notice the truth of inter-being. That just as what we call a flower is actually the dirt the rain and the sun manifesting as flower in that moment. That the beauty of each and every petal a, as well as all of life, is alos the present generation of an unbroken lineage which traces its roots to the beginning of all things. And so, because this is true, the past is not a "thing" which is seperate from the present moment as the flower is not separate from the blue sky.


So, I can not disagreeing on your assessment of Americas past. Like any human, a bit of looking at the spoon we are fed can result in A LOT.
Like any one willing to admit, the past can be that , the past. Dwelling there can result in many different things. Dont stay at a place that keeps ya too long in ... a place you dont wanna be.

One of the ideas is to NOT SAY THERE. Yea we come from thieves and murders, direclty,.....so do I.
Why stay there?

Because the past is the present. An unbroken chain of events brings us to this moment and what we see when we do not hide from difficult truths, is that by becoming mindful of what actually is, we can actually address the problems and reduce suffering. Is this not the path of the Bodhisattva?

Ever fed the hungry?
Yes
Every given from inside?

Prison or the heart? Yes to both.

I can validate - every war I have been in, some one has gotten rich. Every war some one does.Every war, that position , that part in the story will always be there.

Then I'm sure you can understand that the victims of the war you helped wage may have decendants who have not fully recovered from the trauma that was inflicted with your aid. I am sorry if this stings. I am a friend of Veterans as well as the poor and the imprisoned and I believe radical honesty can heal the wounds of mistakes made in the past yet linger in the heart of the present moment.

For me, micromanaging comes in many forms. For me. Letting things like other peoples choices get under my skin has been a real thing for me in the real world as well as in the Jeddist world. I dont like the wall, but im trying not to let it make me salty. I know people pissed at the sun. I know people just as salty about my family. I know salty people in this very Temple. They are every where.

Avoiding the salty feeling depends on you looking away from the present moment instead of looking deeply at it. The reason you must look away in order not to feel salty is because you know it is wrong and that it is hurting innocent people who are suffering greatly. You are wise yet fearful. I sence that you will understand this quote from Thich Nhat Hanh

"I knew early on that finding truth is not the same as finding happiness. You aspire to see the truth, but once you have seen it, you cannot avoid suffering. Otherwise, you have seen nothing at all."

"

My dad is Customs in Lerado Tx. Its real to me. Ive lived in border towns. Im half and half and both halfs wernt American. Here I am. My home is just as decorated for patriotic days and holidays as the Army let me decorate my own dress greens.

We can point out much in our very own search. Thats what searching is. Thats what thinking does.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE
Dont forget, Jeddist are smart. If we choose people to do things, and then be scrupulous or it throws us off... It may be something else more ... like... us.
Statements like ..." IF YOU DO THIS ... then that means you...." are always dangerous for me. Leading.

I only meant to state that the values which social organizations like policing, genocide, slavery as well as war are rooted in domination not in partnership and, therefore, increase suffering rather than well-being.

I know the names of the people who were the enemy labeled not by me. I was the difference there. My hope is what we find and what we learn can free us more than ... Lead us.
May the Force CONTINUE to be with you.
Pastor Carlos

Thank you for the contribution to this discussion.

Thank you for answering and sharing.

You won’t hurt my feelings if you are being honest - honestly. Lol
I’ve seen the wake of many things. I’ve been the wake of many things.

I choose to be a difference - I - need. Sometimes it’s not just for me. May the Force continue to be with you.
Keep on.