Is Trumps Boarder Wall Antithetical To Jedi Doctrine?

The "I don't see your 'characteristic'" has to be taken in the proper context though. It seems implausible that anyone can think it means that the characteristic is invisible. It's rather, a phrase denoting the opposite of what its accused, ie it's a statement of anti-discrimination awareness, not ignorance of discriminatory factors... and is used within that context. I don't think people go around saying it out of that context, just because it doesn't quite make any sense and indeed can only be explained by some idea like she was proposing, however at odds with anyone I know who uses it. I'm not sure if that is a cancel culture thing or not. I don't see your gender could easily be I don't see your age.... and yet these days its not uncommon for job applications to specifically exclude the applicants age so that unconscious bias does not discriminate against mature age applicants within the process of hiring (which is the context in this example). Same sorta thing, but it's a bad example because it's not uncommon for people to pay less attention to age because so many other factors in a person's presence have so much more relevance.... which coincidentally tends to support my other point which is that the individual characteristic at play might not necessarily be all that relevant to dictating the terms of the interaction to begin with.

So you'd have to ask what a person meant by it to know what they meant by it. Assuming it's racist and feeling hurt goes to my point about suffering dictating perception beyond useful measures. There could be a few reasons for its use other than what I'm familiar with. One person might mean for example it helps them move past trauma maybe I dunno. For me, it's a Jedi thing lol, and applies to gender, etc, as well, and species... I try to see the Force

Adder wrote: The "I don't see your 'characteristic'" has to be taken in the proper context though. It seems implausible that anyone can think it means that the characteristic is invisible. It's rather, a phrase denoting the opposite of what its accused, ie it's a statement of anti-discrimination awareness, not ignorance of discriminatory factors... and is used within that context. I don't think people go around saying it out of that context, just because it doesn't quite make any sense and indeed can only be explained by some idea like she was proposing, however at odds with anyone I know who uses it. I'm not sure if that is a cancel culture thing or not. I don't see your gender could easily be I don't see your age.... and yet these days its not uncommon for job applications to specifically exclude the applicants age so that unconscious bias does not discriminate against mature age applicants within the process of hiring (which is the context in this example). Same sorta thing, but it's a bad example because it's not uncommon for people to pay less attention to age because so many other factors in a person's presence have so much more relevance.... which coincidentally tends to support my other point which is that the individual characteristic at play might not necessarily be all that relevant to dictating the terms of the interaction to begin with.

So you'd have to ask what a person meant by it to know what they meant by it. Assuming it's racist and feeling hurt goes to my point about suffering dictating perception beyond useful measures. There could be a few reasons for its use other than what I'm familiar with. One person might mean for example it helps them move past trauma maybe I dunno. For me, it's a Jedi thing lol, and applies to gender, etc, as well, and species... I try to see the Force

Applications often include demographic information which often includes ethnicity. Where previous applications used this against applicants (and some likely still do) many applications collect this data but tell you that you wont be treated differently so the user isn't having to wonder if the people collecting this data see their color as a positive or negative.

If I was 87 and you said "I don't see your age" I'd be happy since chances are... I'd probably rather not be 87. Unless you're a child most people want to look younger. I purposefully guess people are younger than they are all the time because it's a compliment. You can't do that with race.

There is a fine line between invisibility and the motive for why the thing is invisible. If the thing is viewed as a negative then "what huge mole on your face? what unibrow? what gold tooth that's not actually metal? what lazy eye? I don't see it." Is like telling a woman who is 600lbs that she's not fat. What is it that you're trying to deny?

Trying not to see something typically means that thing you're trying not to see is bad. You can say this is taken out of context but the point is that if you have to explain the context then you're message is not being communicated well. Like I said earlier on, I had this conversation with a white woman I was seeing at the time and she brought it up because she had said it before and she had been asked by another black person not to say that. So I wasn't the first. Do you understand what I'm trying to say? Both me and the other person who corrected her knew she didn't mean anything bad by it because we knew her. She isn't one of those "I'm not racist because I have a black friend". Her children are actually black.

So we know SHE didn't mean anything wrong by it but she was saying this because she heard other people saying it. And maybe those other people all thought they were saying the right thing because they had good intentions. But being black we know how it "sounds", especially to people who have gotten used to white people seeing our color as something negative. My girlfriend told me the other day about a Hispanic girl that joked about her skin color being "sh-t brown", a very ugly comparison; only to find out this person was actually lighter in complexion.

Without a long history of whites making fun of our color the context may be taken differently. When you have whites dressing up in black face... still... it might be a lot easier to navigate what white people mean, but UNTIL WE KNOW YOU (as an individual) WE CANNOT GUESS WITH 100% ACCURACY WHAT YOUR MEANING IS.

And you shouldn't say things that require us to put in that guesswork. Even if we know you. Hell... if we know you that well, you should know us well enough to know that we don't really like that. Because you should be talking to us just like the woman I'm referring to. At least ask. Some black people it may not bother at all; especially if they're younger.

There are many black people who assume, as a DEFENSIVE STANCE (important context), that every white person is somewhere on the spectrum of racist. Is it true? No. But do they take time to sit and think about who should be excluded? No. Does racism seem to be a global phenomenon? Yes. So can we understand why many feel that way? We should. It would be one thing if it was just a problem with Southern whites. And of course there are many white people in the south that love black people. But we're talking about volume. Black people typically take a more defensive stance because we know there are more racists than we think and they don't typically expose themselves. So they say they're not racist all the time. They do. Because almost no one is proud to be a racist. They just are. If you see 2 who are proud of it there are probably 80 who are neither proud nor ashamed.

And so when black people befriend or get into relationships with whites there are always a fair number of our peers who think we are "in bed with the enemy". But again... CONTEXT matters. This understanding of "the white man" is a literary device used to represent an overall model of white supremacy with many faces. It isn't talking about all white people without exception. When we talk to each other we know what we mean but it needs to be explained when talking to... you.

And so it is when white people say things like "I don't see color". I don't even know why you kind of "bleeped" out color and replaced it with characteristic. I take your meaning as all characteristics could be interchangeable in this expression but which characteristics NEED to be? How many beautiful women are told "I don't see beauty". How many petite women are told "I don't see size". How many muscular men are told "I don't see muscles". How many rich people are told (such that it is believed) "I don't see wealth".

Typically if you're saying "You don't see ______" the _________ is something that person is commonly negatively judged by. So it doesn't affirm that there is nothing wrong with that characteristic. It almost confirms the person thinks so! If a woman is beautiful you tell her she's beautiful. You don't hide it. Women want to hear that. They don't wear makeup and have their nails done and wear heels so you can NOT notice how they look. When it is a positive thing then people want to be recognized. They are PROUD of it. Even when it's about sex... something most people do in private... because homosexuals are different and because they have been mocked and ridiculed and ostracized because of it, their response is no more "let me hide in the closet". It's "I'm here. I'm queer. Get over it." (That's not me saying this. Just so we're clear.)

When James Brown came out with the song saying "Say it loud. I'm black and I'm proud." Black people weren't exactly all proud of being black because we had absorbed so much negativity as a result of that word that we saw it as a negative. It took years but over time we, at least for us, took that negative and started making it a positive. We had to change the way we saw ourselves. Many of us go through a period where we say "I'm not black. I'm brown. I'm literally brown so why should accept being called black?" but then when we understand the struggle and that we're not alone in it but we are connected to each other by it, that's where the pride comes from. I'm not accepting a label that white people called us. I'm accepting a label that we adopted and changed into a positive. And so I DO see color but I see color as beautiful. Black is beautiful. Brown is beautiful. White is beautiful. ALL colors are (not sure about orange) generally beautiful.

This is easy to see when it comes to different breeds of our pets. So why is it so hard with our own species? My girlfriend is so light in complexion that I joke about her being white all the time. So does her mom. Her mom says all the time that she got the wrong baby from the hospital. My girlfriend laughs but she also doesn't like it because she's proud to be black. It's not because there's something wrong with being white. It's because there's nothing wrong with being black and that's what she is.

We all are just looking for acceptance. Equality. I want you to see my color. I just want you to see that it is beautiful just like yours is beautiful. Maybe you don't think it's AS beautiful as your own and that's OKAY. No one has to have the same level of attraction to a different color. Call it bias or preference. We're okay with that. No one has to think one thing is as beautiful as something else because beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It's subjective.

What's objective is that we all look different. But it's like flowers. I bought blue flowers. Guess what my favorite color is. It's blue. No one cares. The point Jane Elliot made is the same thing a lot of black people are going to think; which is that YOU OBVIOUSLY DO SEE COLOR. Now you can call that a knee jerk literal interpretation but for the figurative interpretation to work we kinda have to deal with the physical interpretation because we have been judged because of a PHYSICAL difference, not just an intangible philosophical idea. So the two are linked. Maybe you don't think about it as deeply so this doesn't all occur to you. We think about it all the time. I wish we didn't have to but part of being "black" and not just having brown skin, is understanding how you are viewed by whites such that you can defend yourself and avoid as many obstacles as you can. We were told that we had to work harder and do better in school than white kids because we had to overcome the perceived disadvantage of just having the wrong skin color.

When you call someone's place of origin a "sh-t hole country" you further establish this narrative that whites are better/superior. White children are believing this. I know because I personally heard a white child say this to my kid at a pool... in OHIO.

And if nothing else, kids definitely see color even if adults want to pretend otherwise. So for all the multitude of reasons I've tried to give and those I wasn't thinking about, it would simply be better not to say this (at least not to black people). And say instead that you don't discriminate by color. If you are dying to say "I don't see _____" then are you willing to compromise and say "I don't see __race__" as a better alternative? And if you hear other white people saying they don't see color you can tell them that a black dude told you that they prefer you say "I don't see race". And if they ask why you can have the same conversation I'm having with you and the world will be a better place because we're having the conversation. There should only be one race; the human race. Many colors, but one race. Saying this doesn't take anything away from anyone nor does it pretend that a characteristic someone happens to be proud of and thinks is beautiful, it doesn't seek to turn that invisible and pretend it doesn't matter. It matters to me because it's a part of me; a part of who I am, a part of my culture and heritage.

And if it matters to me it shouldn't be something you try to ignore just as I wouldn't ignore that which matters to you. We don't do that to people we're in a relationship with so we should use the same methods to improve race relations that we use to improve interpersonal relationships with family and friends.

Yea I know applications can ask all sorts of things... I'm talking about efforts to generate best practice to mitigate discrimination in action, not what people have been doing wrong. We are both undoubtedly defining the problem in a way to justify a particular solution, but the way I see it is anti-discrimination measures should look at those factors at that location and be adjusted to suit... it's highly relative to the environment, and so the language and context these problems have to be approached from cannot be caged within the narrative of a particular populations struggle, it needs a more universal language so it can have widespread application, and adoption. Which has the by-product of making easier for racists to start accepting their own hypocrisy as a way for them to effect a deconstruction of their bigotry.... probably because it doesn't paint them into a corner as the bad guy in explaining why its wrong LOL. It might be as simple as that TBH, because emotion is primal thing and it might be short circuiting their capacity for a logical reaction in every instance the topic is raised.

So in turn, the longer a discrimination issue is fought using terms of the conflict, the deeper the conflict will tend to be. Whether that translates to duration depends on the course of the conflict. Part of my Jedi approach is to understand factors around conflict and try to mitigate them where the conflict is not really the intention. Obviously though at some level when people stop caring it's too late for folk to come together as one and then they splinter off, explode with a footprint on others, or quietly disappear. Not much can be done about that beyond conventional enforcement approaches be it within the circle of friends, groups, workplace, State or Federal domains of potential awareness and actions to call it out and address it.

So for whether a person should respect your wishes on how to be communicated with.... it depends on the person, and their relationship to you. The world doesn't coddle anyone, unless they have wealth or power, or are children (lucky to have a loving family). It's not a race or gender thing. The reality that privilege exists in a certain demographic doesn't really dictate how best to resolve it. Go to China and the privilege between white and black probably vanishes, and is replaced by Chinese privilege... and all of a sudden the whole narrative and context is lost and ineffective within that new environment. But since the mechanism of action is the same, it's much easier to deal with it at the level of discrimination (the single category of actions, with various types) rather than individual discriminatory actions (zillions of actions to all people of all types, in the various types within that category).

Adder wrote: So for whether a person should respect your wishes on how to be communicated with.... it depends on the person, and their relationship to you. The world doesn't coddle anyone, unless they have wealth or power, or are children (lucky to have a loving family). It's not a race or gender thing. The reality that privilege exists in a certain demographic doesn't really dictate how best to resolve it.

Yesterday, my GF and I got into an argument over what happened when another female on FB called her a B-tch. We were having a political discussion with a couple black Trump supporters and this lady jumped in and started talking wrecklessly.

Once that language was used their conversation quickly devolved into how they were going to physically assault each other. While my GF could have taken the high road she was tired of doing that and simply doesn't handle disrespect well. I think we can all sympathize. And this female was displaying some "Karen"-like behavior. My Girlfriend didn't like that I reprimanded her on the post. But I told her that if my children get into a fight I'm going to talk to my children because they are my responsibility. The other child is the responsibility of their parents. And I didn't know this woman. We weren't friends. So my opinion or moral shaming or whatever wouldn't mean much to her anyway. And I told my GF I was more concerned with how that back and forth made her look than how it made this woman look.

So in this very real situation, the use of incindiary or inflammatory language shuts down positive conversation. Maybe she really felt like my GF was what she called her. But to call her that, isn't simply "not coddling". It's uncalled for and disrespectful. There are ways to make a point. There are proper ways to communicate with people if you want to have a positive dialogue with a positive result.

So what I'm saying is that IF there is an aim, desire, etc. to IMPROVE racial relations, and not just police them with legal structure, then both sides need to come to the table with respect. If you come at us making accusations because that's how YOU feel, then you should expect the same in return in a way that isn't nice and friendly and full of hugs. The reality is that people get offended and when they get offended because you're on offense, they're going to be automatically put on defensive and will respond defensively. Saying its about not coddling suggests that there are negative things to be said. But how could there be negative things to say about an entire group of people who happen to be labeled "black" when in reality we are all part of the human race but many different colors exist?

Whatever negative interaction you had with ANY OTHER black person has nothing to do with me or any other black person. Black people are not guilty of crimes committed by any other black person nor is it our job or responsibility to police other black people. I'm not saying you believe this. This is pretty standard stuff that for some reason I have to repeat every 3 months or so because... racists.

Which is funny because we all agree that it's the government's job to police the Mafia and all the European criminal syndicates, not other members of the 'race' to which they belong.

So what could there possibly be to say to a black person that requires not "coddling"? Curious.

The way we come at each other is more than words. It's attitude. It's body language. It's tone. All these things is part of communication and when communication is done poorly then the point of it is lost because those ideas, while they can be transmitted without care or concern, they are far less likely to be received. Haven't you ever had a fight with a girlfriend that became a shouting match? As much as you might feel like you're right and she's wrong shouting over each other rarely works. It is usually only after things calm down can both sides really hear each other. Black people are not your children, one way or the other. 'Coddled' shouldn't even be used in this context. If you speak to me like an adult. I'll listen and respond in kind. But I don't owe my ears to anyone who wasn't personally involved in their creation. If you want to have an adult conversation with black people in general you have to be respectful; especially if you're in close proximity.

So knowing that people don't have to listen to you, SHOULD alter your angle. If it doesn't then the problem is not with them. It's with you. If you can't be respectful then you should not try to engage at all. At the end of the day black people are people. And you speak to them that way. Period.

I don't care where you are. The more you know people the more you see their value. Asian people were told by Europeans not to trust black people. So when we go over there (and there are Youtube videos of black people interviewed in Asian countries) there typically isn't the same experience of racism that exists in America. However, a lot of Asian ideas are formed through media because that is their ONLY exposure.

I met a little girls when I lived in Alabama. She was from a small town with little or no black people. But she was my boss's niece. When she saw me she literally pointed at me and said "you're a black man!" But she was super nice and sweet. She just hadn't met one before. She sat on my lap and I let her play on my computer. Interactions like that create positive experiences that become knowledge. When you don't know someone or something that's ignorance. And IGNORANCE is the main driver of racism. So while we can talk about policing the activities of racism that's not my main focus because that effort started long ago. That doesn't end racism. What ends racism is destroying the ignorance that manifests itself in communicating racist ideas and acting upon them. If you can stop the IGNORANCE then you can stop the racism. But to correct the ignorance we have to build relationships and interact without hostile intent or being offensive.

Yesterday, my GF and I got into an argument over what happened when another female on FB called her a B-tch. We were having a political discussion with a couple black Trump supporters and this lady jumped in and started talking wrecklessly.

Once that language was used their conversation quickly devolved into how they were going to physically assault each other. While my GF could have taken the high road she was tired of doing that and simply doesn't handle disrespect well. I think we can all sympathize. And this female was displaying some "Karen"-like behavior. My Girlfriend didn't like that I reprimanded her on the post. But I told her that if my children get into a fight I'm going to talk to my children because they are my responsibility. The other child is the responsibility of their parents. And I didn't know this woman. We weren't friends. So my opinion or moral shaming or whatever wouldn't mean much to her anyway. And I told my GF I was more concerned with how that back and forth made her look than how it made this woman look.

So in this very real situation, the use of incindiary or inflammatory language shuts down positive conversation. Maybe she really felt like my GF was what she called her. But to call her that, isn't simply "not coddling". It's uncalled for and disrespectful. There are ways to make a point. There are proper ways to communicate with people if you want to have a positive dialogue with a positive result.

I don't know if your girlfriend is a bitch, and I have no idea what "karen"-like behaviour is.

I have some small idea what power is though, and it's easy to spot people who don't have any. They can usually be found arguing on facebook (or, I suppose, forums :dry: )

Perhaps you, or your girlfriend, should look to consolidate power, influence, and dare I say it - privilege, rather than scrap for moral points in a pointless textual war.

At the moment you're a wounded dog, a barb (that probably cost your opponent nothing) has you crawling to totjo, bloody and frustrated, looking for support.

There are proper ways to communicate with people if you want to have a positive dialogue with a positive result.

The best way to have a positive result (ie - the result you want) when communicating with someone is to have all the balls, courts, racquets, and less metaphorically, supporters in your pocket before you even have the discussion - then they either survive by agreeing with you, or are eliminated by opposing you.

Winning conversations is like winning battles - two armies on an open field, with all their capability and movements on display is a terrible idea. Ambushes, on the other hand, are remarkably effective.

So knowing that people don't have to listen to you, SHOULD alter your angle. If it doesn't then the problem is not with them. It's with you. If you can't be respectful then you should not try to engage at all. At the end of the day black people are people. And you speak to them that way. Period.

You think jerks are jerks to black people because they're black?
Oh, sweet summer child.
Jerks are jerks to people because they can be.
It's like being a jerk to the meatsack that bags your groceries - why not be a jerk to them? what are the consequences? and it feels nice to be more powerful than someone.

see how you used the term "karen"-like behaviour? That's a jerk thing to say, but it's okay at the moment, so you're getting on board with it.

until it's not okay to be jerks to black people in your crappy country, people will do it, and they don't even need to be racist, they just need to be jerks.

Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Full Stop. You're saying people who want to be jerk-bags will find and justify a reason to be a jerk to others? Well, I never.

On the real. This is key thank you James. Though I won't deny that there are race problems here in the US, ones that actually need solving. I will absolutely say it does us no good what so ever to point to on group who is using race as the reasoning behind their justification (Ironically this comes from both sides of the current situation). Then allowing negative action by using the simplest to reach justification.

An interesting question for us here in the US, is having lower expectations on behavior based on race, racist (like really racist)?
I would say so, and it seems to be and have been the case for quite some time. I could go into a few stories about the education system if need be but they are just what I have seen personally.

All I am saying is let's actually work on things instead of tearing things apart and then saying, "well, it's because XYZ and it's justified".

Right now in the US, 29 people ave died due directly from this behavior(not counting the national uptick in violent crimes), how many more have to die?

Just think about it,
Much Love, Respect and Peace,
Kobos

In my own crappy two cents worth


If we managed better ...

If we as individuals never needed a maw or some one else to govern us .... why do some need to be governed and some don’t ?


Flat out : some use free will to inslave - instigate and evening pick fights - once you have learn the difference you won’t un see it.

Poor management
Almost any problem in the work place comes to this as well as in the world
Greed or bad management ( from geeed )
There are people who wanna see the world burn.
(Used to be one )

There are soooo many factors in things now a days it’s never light and dark cut and dry any more

We need great managers or - people who are accountable and responsible .

Guaranteed it - if ...accountability with police was better managed - one life wouldn’t be valued more than others if we were treated all the same and given the same judgment and management.

All crimes matter

That’s just me - I don’t have many of the problems I used to and I’m glad. Eventually you get tired of spiting the nose to cut the face - kinna like the usefulness of a screen door on a submarine - faith without works ... it just ain’t happening ... it’s like a song you can’t sing.

No ones singing

Still no rain ...

Not everything is light and dark - know and unknown - for everything else there’s ... character and virtue.
Hope ya got some - want some - find some or get some, steal some or fake mint- either way -You won’t regret it

What missing is better management and character but that’s just me.

Finding a solution by having civil conversation between people grounded in reality is not terribly difficult. Add just one of any number of the insane BS artist out there to the equation and the whole thing turns into a sh!t show that never resolves.

The issue including the BS Artist is that the BS Artist think they are the ones grounded in reality and are having civil conversations. They project their inadequacies and fallacies on others; are blind to their own double standards; reject any well-formed opposition as some kind of “ism” or “ist” (who knows what they’ll dream up next) And have pretty much been brain washed to hate or despise the place they live, the people they live with and can, and will, find fault and flaws with every and any aspect of anything presented them.

The real issue facing all societies is that everything dies. No person or group of people can ever make a utopian society. Because we are flawed as individuals it is impossible for us to create something perfect. And no matter how good something is, there will always be those that want to tear it down and destroy it. The BS Artist believe that to achieve their unachievable goals they have to tear down what is there and start over. They have no idea how to start over or what it takes to have a high functioning society. They have nice sounding rhetoric; but, that is all it ever mounts to. Societies can not be built on rhetoric. So, the BS Artist doesn’t build or create, just destroy. Meantime, the person trying to conserve what is good about the current situation and change what needs to be changed gets steam rolled over. This is because as one negotiates there is trade, this for that. Eventually what is there trying to be preserved, is traded away piece by piece and replaced with insanity. (something designed to fail so that the new thing can be put in its place)

This is the natural order of the universe. Al things die. All living things struggle to survive. What replaces the old is not always better. Often it is far worst. And that will be replaced by the next and next till something more resilient comes along. But it will fall to time as well. This is balance; the balance of the Force. The coming and going, the struggle, the fall, the rebirth.

“ This is balance; the balance of the Force. The coming and going, the struggle, the fall, the rebirth.”

Granddaddy Wess
Smiley face

I want to take another time out and sincerely thank everyone for participating in what could be considered an uncomfortable conversation with a black man. I found this video from a series of videos of the same type and title that are really excellent. They're from Emmanuel Acho. Seems like a great guy, not because I agree with his point of view, but because he navigates these conversations honestly and skillfully, probably much better than myself. So I thank you guys for putting up with me and our back and forths, but I would like to share a video that also talks about the subject of "seeing color". Because when I say it, it's still something you're hearing from an underrepresented minority and you could say "Well that's just him. I know other black people and they don't feel the same way." And I will say it is difficult even trying to be a spokesman because I step on that soap box knowing that my community is not monolithic. However, because we share a culture and because we share a lot of experiences we have a lot of commonalities with regard to our response to racism and white supremacy. But without further ado, here's the video. If anyone wants to discuss the contents after feel free to do so. Ask any questions you feel the need to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfo1XJDJKSU