Why so many people become disappointed with this community

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Tellahane wrote:
Just a thought, get rid of the doctrine!

You continue to make the mistake that people here are not following the doctrine. I think the focus of the philosophy here is for each of us to do the work to decide what the doctrine means to them. How do they personally interpret it and enact in in their lives. You fail because you judge and thus condemn all that fail to see your personal interpretation the way you think they should be seeing it.

May I try something here, and tweak this tendency I've always noticed of pointing judgements toward individuals when probably not necessary to put a point across?

Maybe something more like...
Let's not make the mistake [of thinking] that people here are not following the doctrine. I think the focus of the philosophy here is for each of us to do the work to decide what the doctrine means to them. How do they personally interpret it and enact in in their lives. People fail to communicate when they judge others and thus condemn all that fail to see their personal interpretation the way they think others should be seeing it

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Tellahane wrote:
Just a thought, get rid of the doctrine!

You continue to make the mistake that people here are not following the doctrine. I think the focus of the philosophy here is for each of us to do the work to decide what the doctrine means to them. How do they personally interpret it and enact in in their lives. You fail because you judge and thus condemn all that fail to see your personal interpretation the way you think they should be seeing it.

Tellahane wrote: Literally right here on the home page:

"A Jedi at Temple of the Jedi Order (TotJO) follows our Doctrine, though all are welcome to register an account and participate as a guest."

This is not true...this is false advertising, I'm on trying to attack I'm just trying to point out area's that could be improved for the goal of the temple, this is not a personal vendetta, I'm trying to explain a way to improve your melting pot. You asked, I'm giving opinion. If you don't want my opinion, don't ask! or just say "stay out of it, and off I go."

Don't get all upset about asking a question and having expectations of my answers and then give me a speech about how my expectations issue was not what you expected in your expectations.

Can we literally just chill out and look at things objectively for a moment?

It's not that I don't agree that the idea should be to use it as a tool its that literally there is documentation, originating documentation that sais TOTJO Jedi follow the doctrine, I'm all for the evolution of the process and the change, but this thread is originally about disappointments, and why, when you come to the temple and expect based on whats written on the front face of the temple that the jedi here follow the doctrine and then they don't, that's a disappointment ya? Kyrin you aren't privy to it because you unfortunately didn't make it into knighthood but there are debates in those parts of the forum whether the education should have some kind of minimums, that all jedi at least cover some concepts or be completely 100% free even to the point that you can get all of your 100 valuable points in hamburger theorycrafting(not that this would ever pass) and as long as you somehow got the votes can still be knighted for it, which is fine I just wish people would decide the temple is either an open grounds for self study up an artificial rank that doesn't really hold a standard or a proper minimum to define you as an actual knight(which defeats the point of the knight oath tbh) or a belief system focused on doctrine and other teachings that build upon it.

Sure it could be a open grounds with that included within it, but it doesn't describe itself as such, and again it comes down to appearances if thats what you advertise, and its not the case, that's where the conflict and disappointments come from.

I'm going to add since I misread kyrin's last reply, There is a mix here of people who do and don't follow doctrine, and there are mixes of those who only follow parts, you can read through IP journals all day long and see the mix, including revisits. I'm not going to go through and call out names because that is pointless but to say that everyone here is 100% following it is a false statement.

Of course you probably need to quantify that a bit further too because there are some guests I can guarantee don't follow, but if we're looking at members and up there are a few out there that don't follow some or all of the parts, as well as some that say they do, and act another.

At the end of the day this is a perfectly valid thing, and encouraged, it just needs to be more........obvious?....described so from the very beginning of your journey here perhaps? but more importantly its a fundamental change in how the temple is and operates because if you can't hold anyone to anything then how can one ever do anything "wrong". With exceptions to the terms of use and the pax templi which..i mean did that ever come out?

I wish we could do a voice discussion on this topic a lot more could be said and heard and understood in such a shorter amount of time

Proteus wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Tellahane wrote:
Just a thought, get rid of the doctrine!

You continue to make the mistake that people here are not following the doctrine. I think the focus of the philosophy here is for each of us to do the work to decide what the doctrine means to them. How do they personally interpret it and enact in in their lives. You fail because you judge and thus condemn all that fail to see your personal interpretation the way you think they should be seeing it.

May I try something here, and tweak this tendency I've always noticed of pointing judgements toward individuals when probably not necessary to put a point across?

Maybe something more like...
Let's not make the mistake [of thinking] that people here are not following the doctrine. I think the focus of the philosophy here is for each of us to do the work to decide what the doctrine means to them. How do they personally interpret it and enact in in their lives. People fail to communicate when they judge others and thus condemn all that fail to see their personal interpretation the way they think others should be seeing it

So you want to change Kyrin's assertive tone into a passive-aggressive grumble? Where would the honesty and integrity be in that? :laugh:

I probably have not said this before, or maybe I have, I am unsure. It can be very uncomfortable to make discussions personal (discussing the person rather than the idea), but it is not necessarily a BAD thing. Sometimes abstract conversation can get quite pointless, making specific citations helps ground concepts into something a bit more tangible.

As long as it is all kept constructive, of course.

Tellahane wrote: I wish we could do a voice discussion on this topic a lot more could be said and heard and understood in such a shorter amount of time

The discord is always open to use.

Proteus wrote: May I try something here, and tweak this tendency I've always noticed of pointing judgements toward individuals when probably not necessary to put a point across?

Maybe something more like...
Let's not make the mistake [of thinking] that people here are not following the doctrine. I think the focus of the philosophy here is for each of us to do the work to decide what the doctrine means to them. How do they personally interpret it and enact in in their lives. People fail to communicate when they judge others and thus condemn all that fail to see their personal interpretation the way they think others should be seeing it

Better yet, "lets" not make the mistake of thinking I did not say exactly what I intended to say, exactly as I intended it. I have not made the mistake so "lets" is inappropriate and I will not include myself in that misnomer.

Tellahane wrote: I'm going to add since I misread kyrin's last reply, There is a mix here of people who do and don't follow doctrine, and there are mixes of those who only follow parts, you can read through IP journals all day long and see the mix, including revisits. I'm not going to go through and call out names because that is pointless but to say that everyone here is 100% following it is a false statement.

It’s not a false statement. The common theme in what you just said - all who come here study the doctrine. And those that commit to membership commit to follow it. But following it is a PRACTICE. And in that practice, no two will ever be in the exact same place. But all that commit to that practice do take on the responsibility of interpreting it in the ways each sees fit according to the syncretic license granted here. This is by design and that is the very reason that the Jedi have no standard bible that interprets the doctrine. It’s up to each of us to write our own “Jedi Bible” as we see fit.

That is what this place was designed for and what it is supposed to be. The study and practice of the doctrine. You want to take that away and remove that syncretic nature of organic growth and replace it with a hard coded forced vision that you only deem worthy and can be interpreted no other way. That’s NOT what this place is about. In fact it’s the very thing this place rails against, the sort of false dichotomy you are dictating here.

There is also no simple single sentence that can describe the nuance of this place. It’s the journey that this place provides that reveals that nuance. In the journey some become simple members or move on to start their own philosophies and clans. Others simply relegate themselves to guests here for a myriad of reasons. A few take on the mission of this place wholeheartedly and become Knights. But the mission is NOT the doctrine! The mission is exploration, the doctrine is simply a tool in that exploration. And that tool is robust enough that it even allows for each of us to take from, add to or leave portions of it without diminishing the whole.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Tellahane wrote: I'm going to add since I misread kyrin's last reply, There is a mix here of people who do and don't follow doctrine, and there are mixes of those who only follow parts, you can read through IP journals all day long and see the mix, including revisits. I'm not going to go through and call out names because that is pointless but to say that everyone here is 100% following it is a false statement.

It’s not a false statement. The common theme in what you just said - all who come here study the doctrine. And those that commit to membership commit to follow it. But following it is a PRACTICE. And in that practice, no two will ever be in the exact same place. But all that commit to that practice do take on the responsibility of interpreting it in the ways each sees fit according to the syncretic license granted here. This is by design and that is the very reason that the Jedi have no standard bible that interprets the doctrine. It’s up to each of us to write our own “Jedi Bible” as we see fit.

That is what this place was designed for and what it is supposed to be. The study and practice of the doctrine. You want to take that away and remove that syncretic nature of organic growth and replace it with a hard coded forced vision that you only deem worthy and can be interpreted no other way. That’s NOT what this place is about. In fact it’s the very thing this place rails against, the sort of false dichotomy you are dictating here.

There is also no simple single sentence that can describe the nuance of this place. It’s the journey that this place provides that reveals that nuance. In the journey some become simple members or move on to start their own philosophies and clans. Others simply relegate themselves to guests here for a myriad of reasons. A few take on the mission of this place wholeheartedly and become Knights. But the mission is NOT the doctrine! The mission is exploration, the doctrine is simply a tool in that exploration. And that tool is robust enough that it even allows for each of us to take from, add to or leave portions of it without diminishing the whole.

What exactly am i dictating? I think if you got far enough along in the journey at the temple you would see better what I saw.

Tellahane wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Tellahane wrote: I'm going to add since I misread kyrin's last reply, There is a mix here of people who do and don't follow doctrine, and there are mixes of those who only follow parts, you can read through IP journals all day long and see the mix, including revisits. I'm not going to go through and call out names because that is pointless but to say that everyone here is 100% following it is a false statement.

It’s not a false statement. The common theme in what you just said - all who come here study the doctrine. And those that commit to membership commit to follow it. But following it is a PRACTICE. And in that practice, no two will ever be in the exact same place. But all that commit to that practice do take on the responsibility of interpreting it in the ways each sees fit according to the syncretic license granted here. This is by design and that is the very reason that the Jedi have no standard bible that interprets the doctrine. It’s up to each of us to write our own “Jedi Bible” as we see fit.

That is what this place was designed for and what it is supposed to be. The study and practice of the doctrine. You want to take that away and remove that syncretic nature of organic growth and replace it with a hard coded forced vision that you only deem worthy and can be interpreted no other way. That’s NOT what this place is about. In fact it’s the very thing this place rails against, the sort of false dichotomy you are dictating here.

There is also no simple single sentence that can describe the nuance of this place. It’s the journey that this place provides that reveals that nuance. In the journey some become simple members or move on to start their own philosophies and clans. Others simply relegate themselves to guests here for a myriad of reasons. A few take on the mission of this place wholeheartedly and become Knights. But the mission is NOT the doctrine! The mission is exploration, the doctrine is simply a tool in that exploration. And that tool is robust enough that it even allows for each of us to take from, add to or leave portions of it without diminishing the whole.

What exactly am i dictating? I think if you got far enough along in the journey at the temple you would see better what I saw.

Let's move that to PM too kyrin because I don't think your understanding me and I'm probably not covering my explanations well enough, and its pulling away from the point of the thread.