Why so many people become disappointed with this community

@Onllwyn (and Telehane)

Who are you expecting these things from? Just yourself or others? And what happens when others don’t live up to your expectations? Why do you put others on a pedestal in this way and then judge them if and when they fall off in your eyes? Are they something more than human to you? Incapable of error or failure? Do you perceive them as some form of demigod?

This place is not a hierarchy where the greater the rank the greater the wisdom. It is a cooperative of peers all seeking the same answers to the same questions. No one here is better or more able to live the life of a Jedi than any other. I don't care if you’re a master knight or a guest. We are all equal in navigating this experience the best we each can. And for one of us to judge the others is an incorrect attitude based in hubris.

It sounds as if you are looking for someone to lead you and others. To dictate what to think and how to act and what to believe. You want things to be simple and neat and tidy and if there is an issue an authority figure will spit out the answer, not to be questioned under pain of punishment.

Fortunately this "church" does not do things that way. This is a place you can come and find the answers you seek but YOU have to do the work, study the human condition, decide for yourself what is right, and then live that construct to the best of your ability. The biggest part of that is allowing others to live theirs in the same way. It’s not fair for you place your disappointment at the feet of others that you have decided deserve it because they failed some standard you alone decided to hold them to and then use it as an excuse to leave. If you use this place the way it’s intended the only one that will have the power to disappoint you spiritually is yourself.

I must have written something like 10 (maybe more) resignation letters in my time here. I've thought about leaving at least once every two weeks. The commonalities in these moments is: expectation. If I expect nothing, I cannot be disappointed.

If being a Jedi were easy, everyone would do it.
"Training to become a Jedi is not an easy challenge, and even if you succeed, it’s a hard life."
-- Qui-Gon Jinn

Senan wrote: Tellahane,
I've considered your points, and all I see is confirmation of what Kyrin posted earlier. You came here with an expectation for what this Temple should be for you, and when it didn't meet that expectation, you were disappointed. You are holding certain people, this Temple, and the entire Jedi community to standards that you feel are appropriate without considering that everyone else is possibly doing the same and disagreeing with your idea of Jedi. Now you choose to call that discrepancy a failure on the Temple's part, rather than accept that this is purposely an environment meant for people to find their own paths while incorporating what knowledge and wisdom we may have to offer.

It is offensive that you would say it is "all bullshit" simply because it did not work for you. It is not "false advertising" simply because you had wishful thinking as you walked through the door. In fact, we specifically discourage TOTJO Jedi from putting too much value in titles and ranks so as to avoid disappointment. Be wary of attachments, learn to let go of all you love, all that jazz you can find all over the Teachings and Maxims.

As you have pointed out, there are any number of other places you can go to inform your own spirituality, or you can build your own that works for you outside of any existing community. Returning here to slam this one only shows me that there is some value to what we are doing here, or you wouldn't feel the need to spend your time disparaging it.

All of those things have been said to me before and I spent a great deal of time considering on them, and I know I'm not the best at explaining things but the bullshit comment was more about how I felt about it when that came to fruition so it was a personal feeling more then an overall judgement so that's a fault on mine.

However in response to that whole view, while yes it did not work for me, I'm clearly not the only one. Most importantly you make it sound like I'm only here to "disparage" it, the entire point of this thread was asking why people are disappointing, I answered from my point of view. Has there been any other thread by me post my leaving of my position that has been GO AWAY FROM TOTJO ITS A TRAP? seriously you asked I answered, you make it sound like i'm in some campaign, I'm not lol. My disappointment in the view of the system is more based now a days on the fact that it comes down to purely a write 20,000 words down of gibberish, and win a popularity contest, and bam you are a Jedi/knight/insert your title here. Yes it wasn't the path for me, yes it's a place with multiple possibilities, but it does not present itself as such. I'm not saying it needs to change to be the way I want, I'm saying it could be far more honest from the moment you land on the home page then it is now. A document much like...Idk reviews for a product but get 3-4 people who've made it up into knighthood to type up their descriptions of totjo and put it out there as a what is the temple of the jedi order and hit all of those points your talking about senan would go A LONG Way here.


***EDIT: Also for the sake of record if it was my purpose to continue to try and push my views on others I would not have resigned from my position, because my skillset and time I provided we're probably far more valuable to the temple then my views, my "title" and my "views" were causing more problems then they were solving so I did the appropriate thing. Most people ignore posts with titles of "guest" which is the most appropriate place for me and my views ya?

Literally right here on the home page:

"A Jedi at Temple of the Jedi Order (TotJO) follows our Doctrine, though all are welcome to register an account and participate as a guest."

This is not true...this is false advertising, I'm on trying to attack I'm just trying to point out area's that could be improved for the goal of the temple, this is not a personal vendetta, I'm trying to explain a way to improve your melting pot. You asked, I'm giving opinion. If you don't want my opinion, don't ask! or just say "stay out of it, and off I go."

Don't get all upset about asking a question and having expectations of my answers and then give me a speech about how my expectations issue was not what you expected in your expectations.

Can we literally just chill out and look at things objectively for a moment?

I suppose my reasons may not have been for a want of perfection, but could very well be expectations not being met... even if those were my own of myself more than anything.
I will be honest and say there was more than a few reasons for me, and some of them were other Jedi and their actions (or inactions...).

But then, it makes me wonder..

Kyrin, you’ve stated your reasons for remaining a guest here recently - are those because of unmet expectations or wanting the perfect place? So I, too, asked for and want to remain a guest for similar (perhaps plus some) of the same reasons you do..
I guess I’m asking because some of your reasons are my own, not because I’m trying to call you out or anything.
Your post made me think and I’m just wondering if maybe some level of expectation is called for or if I need to re-re-re-evaluate (again) my own hold ups. Which I honestly do quite frequently..
Can we or should we really not have some expectations/requirements of some things?

Reliah wrote: Can we or should we really not have some expectations/requirements of some things?

This has been what I've tried tasking myself to answer and have not been able to, to date. I think its a philosophical idea that one should not have any expectations and then you can't be disappointing. At the same time we have to no matter what have SOME expectations. I Expect when I move my leg forward gravity will pull it back down again. I expect that when I push certain medications they will do as they are designed in order to save someones life.

The same phrase can be replaced with emotions, if you don't put yourself out there you can't get hurt. However if you don't put yourself out there or open yourself up you miss out on what could be the most amazing experience of your life. Insert any other topic here of the same scope and there tends to be a "balance" required or for those who believe in balance at any rate, or even just that no matter what you do there will always be a minimum amount or a maximum amount of any given thing. You can't fully embrace or shut down any of those aspects, at least I've never met or heard of anyone with any evidence of doing so. So to say you shouldn't have any, for me as a personal opinion, is a bit of a stretch.

Well, I say that, but I am often disappointed. I'm not a paragon of detachment. If I can sit enough and look at the root I can see that it is expectation. Its important for me to make time to sit, though.

When it comes to expectations and disappointments I think its better to stop (again personal opinion) looking at them as a consequence or polar opposite, detach disappointments from expectations and you can still have expectations, just simply don't be disappointed if they aren't met. Easier said then done though right? for those who study/believe living in the now, your expectation passed with the result of said event, of which is now in the past, so why be disappointed when you can focus on the now?

Rosalyn J wrote: Well, I say that, but I am often disappointed. I'm not a paragon of detachment. If I can sit enough and look at the root I can see that it is expectation. Its important for me to make time to sit, though.

Is there ever a time after the sitting has been done that you have felt that an expectation was valid?
Or are no expectations ever valid?


Edit: I feel like I worded this poorly...
Maybe instead of that I mean - have you ever sat with something and realized it wasn’t an expectation but something valid to feel that way about?
And then how do you tell the difference and what do you do with it?

Maybe that’s what I meant...

Maybe both..

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: @Onllwyn (and Telehane)

Who are you expecting these things from? Just yourself or others? And what happens when others don’t live up to your expectations? Why do you put others on a pedestal in this way and then judge them if and when they fall off in your eyes? Are they something more than human to you? Incapable of error or failure? Do you perceive them as some form of demigod?

This place is not a hierarchy where the greater the rank the greater the wisdom. It is a cooperative of peers all seeking the same answers to the same questions. No one here is better or more able to live the life of a Jedi than any other. I don't care if you’re a master knight or a guest. We are all equal in navigating this experience the best we each can. And for one of us to judge the others is an incorrect attitude based in hubris.

It sounds as if you are looking for someone to lead you and others. To dictate what to think and how to act and what to believe. You want things to be simple and neat and tidy and if there is an issue an authority figure will spit out the answer, not to be questioned under pain of punishment.

Fortunately this "church" does not do things that way. This is a place you can come and find the answers you seek but YOU have to do the work, study the human condition, decide for yourself what is right, and then live that construct to the best of your ability. The biggest part of that is allowing others to live theirs in the same way. It’s not fair for you place your disappointment at the feet of others that you have decided deserve it because they failed some standard you alone decided to hold them to and then use it as an excuse to leave. If you use this place the way it’s intended the only one that will have the power to disappoint you spiritually is yourself.

If this is how you have interpreted my answer, I'm not sure how any amount of explaining could possibly do. If you choose to deflect the concerns of others so completely. What is the point of discussion? I never said any of that, and you have simply decided what I meant to fit your narrative.