Why so many people become disappointed with this community

Also, perhaps these kinds of discussions might not need to be approached with this weight of "omg there is something so turrbleh wrong with this community!" just because there are people who end up leaving. How much more productive could we be if we approached it in a constructive way and just simply ask "What can we simply improve here to be of more consistent value to members?" If someone leaves, I don't think we have to panic and shame the community into doom and gloom, since much of the time, it is due to where the individual leaving is just as much as it is the temple. We can't change individuals, but we can change how we interact with the community in general (how often we participate in positive discussions, and inspiring community events for example) as a way to re-inforce the value we can provide to everyone here and increase their chances of sticking around more. I mean, it can very easily simply be a matter of that.

I have to say as far as progressing each rank, in reflection looking back, starting as a member I saw everyone who was doing the IP, following a specific organized structured path, yes we all had different answers but it was a well laid structure, it felt comfortable because I'm a very structure oriented person. Again going from my point of view here that I'm sharing. You get into apprenticeship and you start to see programs that are specific to apprentices but you see some common denominators in lessons but only really briefly, but at this point your so focused between your and TM your not really looking around at others, or at least I wasn't. Looking at knighthood your looking up at people you come to respect as those who have made it, have figured it out, are willing to pass on what it means to be a "knight" which for me at the time seemed to have a unified vision. i mean why have votes into a knighthood if it wasn't to stand for something common and together right? A group with private forums collaborating, learning, teaching, working together on a regular basis that's what it looked like to me looking up.

Then I got into knighthood and that was the first major eye opener. You had regular knight meetings you we're lucky if more then 5-7 people out of 30+ showed up to, the meetings themselves were lucky if you covered half of the intended discussion points, which since so few showed up were almost moot because you never really got enough different perspectives on anything. There was almost no collaborating on projects at the time I was in there, no real discussions of any kind, you while considering your own "training program" looked at others and realized how dramatically different they are from one person to the next, and not from the stand point of it being individualized for the apprentices but that they just straight up don't even cover a lot of the same ground in some cases. So now this view of knighthood which was like a group that all achieved the same thing, it wasn't. We all didn't achieve anything other then have spent x amount of hours typing up essays on topics we wanted to type up essays about, and bam as long as your behavior at the temple was acceptable you were a night having only achieved x amount of homework. The Knight rank didn't stand for anything that I perceived it as standing for it was a accolade of effort put into self study and thats it. Which is fine I'm not saying this is a WRONG thing its just that its not what I had perceived it as coming up through the ranks. IT was poorly described? idk at what point that failure of my understanding started.

Then came the arguments/discussions about teaching methods and standards and common minimum's in an attempt to try and understand what the heck was going on. Then when I did manage to sit down and put together a program I had a 50/50 result of hey those are some nice idea's and "what bullshit is that program where you are forcing someone to go through 300 points when every other knight only has to do 100". The knights/council at the time of those discussions were like 50/50 on whether there should be a standard set of lessons among all apprenticeships to cover in addition to all the personalized goals. I did talk to people individually and I got different answers, some say yes there should be, some say no they should be able to study whatever they want it was torn and no one was agreeing or seemed to realize there was such a tear, other knights just simply ignored all of it and continued to do their own thing. There was no structure, no organization, nothing to follow, and n an attempt to figure it out on my own I was chastised.

Then get into council and at least some relief that there were far more discussions then in knighthood, but trying to deal with the day to day chaos on top of the personal attacks and the fact that I had come up expecting and perceiving the temple as more of a, not dogmatic but more specific view of belief then being a completely open self study type setup, it wasn't the place for me, no one could ever seem to agree that it was one way or the other and the tear between the two tore me apart. Plus me being in that personal conflict was causing more problems at the temple then it was solving so I stepped aside and let the temple be what it be.

But that doesn't mean I can't explain what my disappointments and views were during this process, you may not agree with them but I can only be honest about my experiences. I'd like to think that if it was more obvious or more spelled out or more...organized as an un-organized process if that makes any sense from the get-go I'd have far less problems and issues as I did, and probably would still be holding a seat, but 3 years experience at what I did is a hard thing to just shake off. I maintain that leaving was still the best thing to do at the time. What the future holds for me who knows. I know there's some that wish I just took a break and was still in seat, there are days I feel that same regret but I'm where I am now and I need to focus on the now so if offering my point of view is what I can do, that's what I will do.

Kobos wrote: I believe Tellahane was pretty clear on his major issue and his reasoning to his actions with his first post in this thread. May I ask why you continue to push this on him?

I ask you because this is a prime example of one of the themes that runs through this thread continuously. If you do not understand his reasoning ask him to elaborate with some courtesy to your questions please. Your statements are more accusatory and rude than simply searching for his meaning.

For the record I wouldn't say anything if this isn't exactly the way the thread reads all the way through.

Your perceptions of how this thread reads are yours alone though. That is not how this thread reads from my perception. Tellahane and I have a long history of spirited debate that I think we both enjoy engaging in. In this regard I have "pushed" nothing on him. He has as much privilege to not reply as I have to make comments. My questions were not asked in a discourteous or rude manner but in a probing manner. I'm sorry that you don't see that distinction and I have no means to help you see it in another way except to advise you to consider that inflection and gestures are not visible in this medium and to just give everyone a bit more benefit of the doubt.



Tellahane,
I think your last comments are on the nose. I think the root of the reasons that both of us are guests here now can be found in your reply. As I said before, operationally this place is a mess and you don't have to be a Knight to see that. My own journey in 3 attempts towards at Knighthood have taught me that in spades. However I think this also speaks volumes that reinforces my original post in this thread. People come here with this idea that they will find this perfect nirvana in a hive of perfectly practicing Jedi similar to what is found in the movies. They want to be a part of something like this because it represents an ideal for them, a sort of heaven or Eden. In effect they are trying to insert their entire life into this place and become one with it because they want it to "fix" that broken stuff inside them. They are searching for validation in others.

But when this fails and they find that this place is just as messy and imperfect and complicated as the rest of life is they become disillusioned and frustrated and maybe even spend a great deal of time trying to fix it so that it may become that ideal they are looking for. I know I have done this. But what I finally realized is that, just as there is no secret to life that will ever be revealed to me, no esoteric or lost knowledge that some guru has in the mountains that will give me the key to reality, there is also no perfect group or place that will ever dissipate all the strife and angst and complication of life.

Those things don't exist "out there" in places like this temple. We dont need external validation, only self validation because that exists in me. When I can find that peace in myself, that answer deep within, - that I am perfect in my imperfections and I need to love that instead of hate it. That is when the self actualized importance of places like this falls away. I can now see them for what they are - Place holders, substitutes, band aids to avoid the pain in my life. And when I can realize that I can transform that perception and finally see the truth. These places are just people no different than I am and I can exist along side them and that need to fix them to fit some imaginary standard I feel should be imposed disappears.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Tellahane,
I think your last comments are on the nose. I think the root of the reasons that both of us are guests here now can be found in your reply. As I said before, operationally this place is a mess and you don't have to be a Knight to see that. My own journey in 3 attempts towards at Knighthood have taught me that in spades. However I think this also speaks volumes that reinforces my original post in this thread. People come here with this idea that they will find this perfect nirvana in a hive of perfectly practicing Jedi similar to what is found in the movies. They want to be a part of something like this because it represents an ideal for them, a sort of heaven or Eden. In effect they are trying to insert their entire life into this place and become one with it because they want it to "fix" that broken stuff inside them. They are searching for validation in others.

But when this fails and they find that this place is just as messy and imperfect and complicated as the rest of life is they become disillusioned and frustrated and maybe even spend a great deal of time trying to fix it so that it may become that ideal they are looking for. I know I have done this. But what I finally realized is that, just as there is no secret to life that will ever be revealed to me, no esoteric or lost knowledge that some guru has in the mountains that will give me the key to reality, there is also no perfect group or place that will ever dissipate all the strife and angst and complication of life.

Those things don't exist "out there" in places like this temple. We dont need external validation, only self validation because that exists in me. When I can find that peace in myself, that answer deep within, - that I am perfect in my imperfections and I need to love that instead of hate it. That is when the self actualized importance of places like this falls away. I can now see them for what they are - Place holders, substitutes, band aids to avoid the pain in my life. And when I can realize that I can transform that perception and finally see the truth. These places are just people no different than I am and I can exist along side them and that need to fix them to fit some imaginary standard I feel should be imposed disappears.

I guess that depends on what your definition of perfect nirvana is, I wasn't expecting a perfect nirvana, but I was expecting something "different" then what was described. I know just as well as anyone that no one, even in council is perfect or should be expected to be. Not everyone looks for or wants to live off self validation. At the end of the day our species is as best as we can tell designed to commune, on one level or another. I prefer to be in a community, I was let down by my own expectations of what I thought the community was and when you spend years with that and have it come crashing down its no easy thing to overcome. Blinded is probably the best word. I do think the community here can be a great one. It doesn't need to change how it operates, it doesn't need to change to be something it's not, it just needs a better....guide...a better front facing documentation....a better book cover...intro...preface...whatever metaphor to use that just helps better described what someone searching for Jediism belief can expect. The journey here is long enough especially since its at your pace that coming up against a long enough time of false expectations can be very detrimental to one's health, physically, mentally, and spiritually. The temple needs to agree that is through and through, start to finish, a self study temple, with guides through the first two...semesters?(read as IP and apprenticeship), and the rest is entirely bound by your own drive. At least that's my opinion after all this discussion.

I was re-reading through the FAQ as an example, there really isn't anything in there that describes the self study nature of the temple. Even apprenticeship is vague as best, it talks about a one on one apprenticeship and teaching to become a knight, but doesn't cover anything about the actual process really, or that it's about a guided self analysis and study into area's you want to explore or area's the TM feels you need to explore, none of any of that is covered anywhere, or if it is, its written in so few words that the inexperienced don't see it or understand it.

Don't change the path, just better prepare someone for it. As of right now, it's to easy to be mislead.

I totally agree with what you said Tellahane.

That's why I say operationally this place is a mess. I think it needs to be presented not as a single book cover but as a volume of different books. And you are absolutely right there is nothing to explain any of the process or procedures here. When I was coming up that was one of my biggest pet peeves. I would ask a lot of questions and get different answers every time. I was even chastised by knights several times for improper procedure but praised by others for the same procedure. LOL.. its frustrating. And dont even get me started on the Knighting process!!

I do understand that we are social creatures as well and this place does provide at least a mechanism for that social interaction in its guided study. However I also believe in self-validation as the healthiest means of progress. To many come here and become codependent on a concept or the idea of a philosophy or a trainer or even a training program and then use that as a crutch to blame everything but themselves for their failures.

Maybe the title page should say. "Temple of the Jedi Order - A potentially rich and diverse partially assisted self paced study into the philosophies of real world Jedi, but procedurally and operationally a disaster! Your individual results may vary based on your effort and mindset. However your expectations are not our responsibility." :evil: :lol:

The procedures are very simple. It's simply the case people don't bother familiarising themselves with them, opting for assumptions instead.

ren wrote: The procedures are very simple. It's simply the case people don't bother familiarising themselves with them, opting for assumptions instead.

I know you believe that ren. You have been extremely close to it for probably many decades and that is why you have trouble seeing the reality for many that it is not that easy. Things you take for granted others have no comprehension of. Processes you view as naturally intuitive are not that way to those that did not write those procedures.

I wonder to this day why apprentice journal forums are hidden? Or the knights journals for that matter? Why the jediism board is read only for guests. There have been many threads here lately that guests cant post in even though they are long time contributors here. Does this place feel it is protecting people by doing these things? Are we not all adults here, capable of deciding for ourselves?

This seems to serve as nothing more that systems of covert reward for students designed to entice them to titles that are otherwise publically claimed "dont really matter." So which is it? Does the journey truly rule as paramount here as thisplace claims...or is it really the prestige and clickishness of the title?

I myself stopped posting for the very reason that guests, even longtime ones were suddenly not allowed to reply to threads. Granted I can understand wanting some things "members only" , but at the time it was more an attempt to exclude certain opinions and create a safe space for members. Safe spaces have many problems. One is that it need be enforced through very restrictive, and myopic, methods.

It is also artificial, and cultish.

I know the excuse of this being a temple and a place for growth within.

Just be mindful of what exactly it is you are growing.

Oh yes, the move of the Jediism section to something visible to guests yet inaccessible to their participation is an enormous turn-off. It wouldn't be half the problem were it not visible, frankly, but this comes off as "Yea, we do have what you came here for, but you need almost pledge allegiance to us before you can comment on any part of it."
I can't understate how much I'd have loved to see the discussion that preceded that vote, just to see what kind of thinking made it seem like a good idea...

I'm pretty sure council voted to allow guests to post in Jediism, I changed the permissions myself...I'll poke council...