Why so many people become disappointed with this community

Proteus: thank you for taking the time to address my questions. I have a lot to think about because of it and some things I’ll have to wrestle with more than others...
I agree with you on several points but need time to reflect on other things and myself.
I appreciate it.

Edit: people don’t have to create their own ideals for people to live up to - the docterine is there for us all to see, read, and form “expectations” from very readily. It’s not about people prescribing their own ideals or rules of community - those are laid out for everyone before they even register.

IMO, people become disappointed with this community for the same reasons as any other religious community: it doesn't act like a community.

Community comes from a root that means something common, shared by many people. And part of community is the building upon that. And we don't build. We sit in our corners and do our individualistic thing, we become insular, we share ideas but rarely learn from them, and in general, we don't treat each other like a family of faith should.

That would solve most of our problems, honestly. Everything else is just details.

Learning is strengthened by repetition. What do we repeat here? That is what we are learning.

steamboat28 wrote: IMO, people become disappointed with this community for the same reasons as any other religious community: it doesn't act like a community.

Community comes from a root that means something common, shared by many people. And part of community is the building upon that. And we don't build. We sit in our corners and do our individualistic thing, we become insular, we share ideas but rarely learn from them, and in general, we don't treat each other like a family of faith should.

That would solve most of our problems, honestly. Everything else is just details.

As I've been trying to say all along. This. ^


What new people see first is hey...this is a religion. That's the very FIRST thing you say on the home page. That sets a whole bunch of expectations.

Then the next thing we see is the Doctrine page. That sets a whole new group of expectations.


Nowhere does it say "We're a religion, but we're unlike any other religion in the world. We welcome all ideas and allow you to be an individual. It's up to you if you wish to follow the creed, the code or any of the maxims. How you "are" a Jedi, and "what" a Jedi is - that's up to you."

That one paragraph would eliminate the majority of the disappointment we feel when we are expecting a religion that follows the very specific doctrines you have laid out in the way any other religion would.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expectancy_theory
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmalion_effect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem_effect

To me the Doctrine is 'an' attempt to define something, not 'the' something. And so despite individual interpretations of the Doctrine's nature (here, as its written), that it represents a shared understanding of the essence it represents - which (by virtue of the universality of the Force) also exists in all things, or all living things depending on how one interprets the concept of the Force. So to me the undefined elements are what makes it functional, for effort to operate within - and why its inherently not dogmatic in my opinion.

But that doesn't speak to consistency of authority though ~ where perhaps the Procrustes effect can manifest, when clients are corralled, distorted or limited to what that authority wants or needs. But it's all a very complex thing, and tied to our individuality at whatever level a person is, remembering its run by volunteers who often don't have as much time or focus as even a new member!! Importantly in analysis of these things,

So bringing those things together, I think because its seemingly so broad in its scope that it is better critically examined by not what it mandates but rather what it disallows! But perhaps that is just in regards to Council, and the concept of the Temple more broadly then rests on the shoulders of those trying things ie what are you doing, how well do you know what others are doing etc - before judging. Which might be where some people are invested and vulnerable to anti-conformist narratives which appear to do nothing but pivot off that Expectancy Theory to focus generalized discontent into for want of a better word, attacks. Because they also have their own Expectancy Theory, and when partnered with some measure of authority and a perception of being under attack - it can distort into Procrustes effect

I sort of feel the ideal might be to work to the Pygmalion effect, but not to have that quotient of expectation, which means managing a model of that person, which to me is where the Doctrine serves to illuminate a framework to start to fill in the actuality. Remembering its more important to deal with the actual then the model. Don't fall in love with the model, unless its a super model!!!! :silly:

Reliah wrote: I suppose my reasons may not have been for a want of perfection, but could very well be expectations not being met... even if those were my own of myself more than anything.
I will be honest and say there was more than a few reasons for me, and some of them were other Jedi and their actions (or inactions...).

But then, it makes me wonder..

Kyrin, you’ve stated your reasons for remaining a guest here recently - are those because of unmet expectations or wanting the perfect place? So I, too, asked for and want to remain a guest for similar (perhaps plus some) of the same reasons you do..
I guess I’m asking because some of your reasons are my own, not because I’m trying to call you out or anything.
Your post made me think and I’m just wondering if maybe some level of expectation is called for or if I need to re-re-re-evaluate (again) my own hold ups. Which I honestly do quite frequently..
Can we or should we really not have some expectations/requirements of some things?

Im still catching up after the weekend so I have not read all the responses in this thread completely yet but wanted to reply to this and a few other points.

I think yes absolutely we will always expect some level of expectation, its only human nature. But as Jedi I think we need to keep in mind that its most prudent to not only hope for the best and strive for the best but also be wary of the worst. This is only in line with the concept of maintaining self and environmental awareness. I think this is a way of "remaining calm through the storms" sort of thing?

This place definitely has its share of storms and I have even been known to start a few myself lol. But through all of that, I still recognize the value this place can bring if you just keep that objective mindset. Operationally this place is a mess and egos rule the day, but philosophically this place is a gold mine of potential growth and enhancement. The biggest part of that remains our journals and our work on our selves. And publishing those things may not evoke any response but within ourselves. Or they may evoke responses you will never see. And it is for those two reasons that we do the work, for self and for selflessness.

For the record Onllwyn I was not lecturing and I did understand your concerns. This was simply meant as a conversation, not an attack. I think you misunderstand the meaning of this place and the idea that you equate it to a book is not a correct one. You describe this idea that the cover does not equate to the content. That cover you refer to is Star Wars itself. You have a preconceived notion, as many do, that the movie Jedi are real life Jedi. This is not the case. It also says this on the front page.


Jedi at this site are not the same as those portrayed within the Star Wars franchise. Star Wars Jedi are fictional characters that exist within a literary and cinematic universe.

As for community I think this idea that community requires some set of root or core values to be a community as steam says is also a false idea. My neighborhood is considered a community as well but I can guarantee that the only factor each of us have in common is physical location. This means I can be best friends with my neighbor because we just get along great but have contention with my other neighbor because of a myriad of reasons.

But that does not mean I go to war with him or move from my home. We have contention and conflict from time to time but we also have to live together in the same neighborhood and so its best to work through the conflict and then next week I can borrow his mower if I need it and we can learn to work and live in harmony in this way. Of course that is not a perfect plan either. Case in point is Zenchi and I. But incidents like those are also something to learn from and I hope he can come to terms with his failures as well.

That is what this place is, not only a place of philosophy but a place to learn to work through conflict. Its a melting pot of ideas and concepts and philosophies and worldviews all trying to learn to live together. We do lessons here but we also learn to exist with others that may not think like you do or behave as you want them to behave. To learn to just accept that and let them be who they want to be.

Its a melting pot of ideas and concepts and philosophies and worldviews all trying to learn to live together. We do lessons here but we also learn to exist with others that may not think like you do or behave as you want them to behave. To learn to just accept that and let them be who they want to be.

Now, on top of that, let's add on the fact that this all has to happen in a rather sententious environment, where the very nature of our identity is mounted on "striving to be worthy of virtue". This tends to be an easily shaky setup, since people are more often than not, here to literally mount their personal identities onto an idea that is almost constantly debated here (if not on a community wide level, then on a situational level), and therefore, their personal identity in turn is debated. It should be no surprise or mystery why blowups in a place like this happen, just like in many mainstream churches, where this same setup takes place.

Essentially, the more seriousness and weight people put into an idea onto which they mount their identities, and then use that as a soapbox in discussions against others who are doing the same thing, the more these miscommunications and instances of headbutting I think are likely to occur. I just don't know if things could ever be any other way given the ideology of what this temple is all about and how easy it is to fall into and cling onto the sensational image of the Jedi as portrayed in the doctrine.

Proteus wrote:

Its a melting pot of ideas and concepts and philosophies and worldviews all trying to learn to live together. We do lessons here but we also learn to exist with others that may not think like you do or behave as you want them to behave. To learn to just accept that and let them be who they want to be.

Now, on top of that, let's add on the fact that this all has to happen in a rather sententious environment, where the very nature of our identity is mounted on "striving to be worthy of virtue". This tends to be an easily shaky setup, since people are more often than not, here to literally mount their personal identities onto an idea that is almost constantly debated here (if not on a community wide level, then on a situational level), and therefore, their personal identity in turn is debated. It should be no surprise or mystery why blowups in a place like this happen, just like in many mainstream churches, where this same setup takes place.

Essentially, the more seriousness and weight people put into an idea onto which they mount their identities, and then use that as a soapbox in discussions against others who are doing the same thing, the more these miscommunications and instances of headbutting I think are likely to occur. I just don't know if things could ever be any other way given the ideology of what this temple is all about and how easy it is to fall into and cling onto the sensational image of the Jedi as portrayed in the doctrine.

Just a thought, get rid of the doctrine! Make it a nice document in the library for sure but seriously get rid of it as a main page and fix the line in the home page that states jedi here follow it, be honest about the temple's environment, the perceived environment as you come in is so much different then it actually is, just doing a better job of describing the setting an the environment from even before you get a chance to register would go a long way I think towards setting people's mindsets as they come in to the temple. Hell I may even re-apply for membership if honesty becomes the better policy. Call me selfish for this one but at least then I Can look around and see a bunch of self-studies instead of well..lets just say things that bother me personally.

I mean I can remember some big debates in knight forums about education for apprenticeships having minimums or some standard materials that have to be covered no matter what etc.. and so on that were 50/50 about the exact same problems were discussing down here so its not like this is purely at the guest/membership level it strikes all the way up the chain into council.

Tellahane wrote:
Just a thought, get rid of the doctrine!

You continue to make the mistake that people here are not following the doctrine. I think the focus of the philosophy here is for each of us to do the work to decide what the doctrine means to them. How do they personally interpret it and enact in in their lives. You fail because you judge and thus condemn all that fail to see your personal interpretation the way you think they should be seeing it.

If one wants to study the doctrine, you can do it alone or you can do it with me and a group at 13:00 temple time on the unofficial discord