Why so many people become disappointed with this community

It occurs to me as well as I think about all of the responses here that this is a great reminder to all of us that sometimes we need to revisit our Doctrine. Get back to the basics. Sometimes as leaders or more experienced members, we tend to put our focus on other projects or problems and try to solve them with grand gestures or debates. As Councillors, sometimes we get caught up in rules and procedure or writing new bylaws when the answer is sometimes staring us right in the face as part of our Teachings and Maxims. Conversations like this one do go a long way toward helping us all remember that the Doctrine is a resource available to all of us at any time to fall back on when we go astray.

I've seen use of the term leader a few times in this thread. I'm not sure where its coming from. Who is this leader! Do you need one, should you have one? I've always had a weird relationship with the concept... and a saying I've felt compelled to say a few times to people (not in the Jedi community) is "don't fall at the feet of the guru". Which goes back to what I was saying earlier, don't fall in love with the model of how one is seen.

And I don't think its me, because I do like to follow a leader more then lead, but tend to see the concept as a prescribed role and not an identity. So, a leader of what... Jediness? Rank does not equate to Jediness, nor does age, nor does even experience at being a Jedi probably. I like to see people as potentials, all equal in potentials but not necessarily all potentials having value to me, and I try not to define someone by their value to me - despite inherently assessing their behaviour in those terms. It might be the overlap of those two things which creates a sense of inappropriate or less then useful attachment that might continue to cause anxiety and stress. Sorry if I've gone offtopic.

Senan wrote:

Tellahane wrote:

Senan wrote: In effect, there is no way to properly "advertise" TOTJO in a sentence on our homepage just as there is no single sentence that can properly sum up being Christian in a way that won't be incredibly vague.

Why does it have to be a single sentence?

Because you keep quoting a single sentence on our homepage in your arguments supporting why this site is deceiving people... Or perhaps I am misunderstanding you?

Why does a better description for a single sentence, have to be a single sentence?

Tellahane wrote:

Senan wrote:

Tellahane wrote:

Senan wrote: In effect, there is no way to properly "advertise" TOTJO in a sentence on our homepage just as there is no single sentence that can properly sum up being Christian in a way that won't be incredibly vague.

Why does it have to be a single sentence?

Because you keep quoting a single sentence on our homepage in your arguments supporting why this site is deceiving people... Or perhaps I am misunderstanding you?

Why does a better description for a single sentence, have to be a single sentence?

How would you word it then? Is this really the crux of the issue you have with this place? A few words on a homepage? Or is it something deeper? My understanding of what your saying is not that this place needs to change its homepage but instead change its behaviour to match the current homepage. You have quit as a Knight over your dissatisfaction in this regard and you have eluded to the fact that many of us that are not of Knight rank cannot see your reasons for this. So I want to know, what are those reasons?

Why do people get disappointed with this place?

Because there are several pages of discussion on pages about disappointment 'caused' by this place and threads that are Jediism specific barely get a handful of replies.

So not so much disappointed in this place, but in how people focus their energies while here.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Tellahane wrote:

Senan wrote:

Tellahane wrote:

Senan wrote: In effect, there is no way to properly "advertise" TOTJO in a sentence on our homepage just as there is no single sentence that can properly sum up being Christian in a way that won't be incredibly vague.

Why does it have to be a single sentence?

Because you keep quoting a single sentence on our homepage in your arguments supporting why this site is deceiving people... Or perhaps I am misunderstanding you?

Why does a better description for a single sentence, have to be a single sentence?

How would you word it then? Is this really the crux of the issue you have with this place? A few words on a homepage? Or is it something deeper? My understanding of what your saying is not that this place needs to change its homepage but instead change its behaviour to match the current homepage. You have quit as a Knight over your dissatisfaction in this regard and you have eluded to the fact that many of us that are not of Knight rank cannot see your reasons for this. So I want to know, what are those reasons?

I mean senan already has a reply further up that covers it pretty well, but rather simply then putting "Jedi follow the doctrine" which implies following a very specific set of rules, call it for what it is, Jedi here spend time to study the Jedi Doctrine at this temple for the purpose of self reflection and understanding of how this doctrine fits into their lives and their personal interpretations, and from those develop a personal doctrine/path for them to live their lives by those views.

One implies that Jedi here follow a specific set of rules, the other sais its as exactly as it is here at the temple that its up for personal reflection and interpretation.

I'm not imposing my views on anyone or demanding changes as of such, I'm just saying be more clear to call it what it is. I'm not arguing the interpretation of doctrine is used, my argument is that if you interpret it at face value(following a specific set of rules) then that's not true because people are following variations of the doctrine based on their own personal journey's, so they aren't...really following "The Doctrine" as it stands from a dogmatic view, they are following their own interpretation and view of it, which is two different concepts. Just be more clear on what it actually is, I don't see any harm in just being more descriptive...

You can go through IP journals all day long and find people dis-agreeing with certain values of the doctrine and having different opinions about it, which is perfectly fine I'm not arguing against any of that, everyone seems to think I want to change how the temple works, I don't want to change how the temple works or I would still be fighting in council, I'm merely saying better explain what you are already...

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: How would you word it then? Is this really the crux of the issue you have with this place? A few words on a homepage? Or is it something deeper? My understanding of what your saying is not that this place needs to change its homepage but instead change its behaviour to match the current homepage. You have quit as a Knight over your dissatisfaction in this regard and you have eluded to the fact that many of us that are not of Knight rank cannot see your reasons for this. So I want to know, what are those reasons?

I believe Tellahane was pretty clear on his major issue and his reasoning to his actions with his first post in this thread. May I ask why you continue to push this on him?


I ask you because this is a prime example of one of the themes that runs through this thread continuously. If you do not understand his reasoning ask him to elaborate with some courtesy to your questions please. Your statements are more accusatory and rude than simply searching for his meaning.

For the record I wouldn't say anything if this isn't exactly the way the thread reads all the way through.

Much love,
Kobos

I don't know about anyone else, but I've developed my own position on what to expect based on a combination of what I've already witnessed here since I joined and philosophical material that highlights some very realistic potentials of this kind of place, which I've always felt would make a good directive for this temple to adopt and reach toward.

https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/47-Journals/105619-book-of-proteus-personal-log?start=50#241260

Within this re-interpretation is this:

OUR DOCTRINE

Our Temple utilizes its own Doctrine, a non-prescriptive set of values and principles that a Jedi may use as a guiding resource concerning their individual path as a Jedi.

This is how I've often seen people talk about it, so this is how I had suggested it to be worded.

Arisaig wrote: Why do people get disappointed with this place?

Because there are several pages of discussion on pages about disappointment 'caused' by this place and threads that are Jediism specific barely get a handful of replies.

So not so much disappointed in this place, but in how people focus their energies while here.

I suppose we can't fault people for their focus. This has been a very good discussion so far

I think a big hang up here and why we go in circles is that the title of this thread implies "so many" people are disappointed with this community, and the answer presented is to change some words on our homepage to be less about following the Doctrine strictly and more about using the Doctrine as a tool to explore one's own path. I can see the value in that, but I also think it is irresponsible to say this is why "so many" people are disappointed. There are a million other reasons that are equally valid, and Tellahane has mentioned that some of those reasons reveal themselves once a Jedi has advanced to the Knight rank and sees "behind the curtain", so to speak. I believe Kyrin simply wants to know what it is going on behind this veil that is disappointing people to the point of making them leave because this might be a much bigger issue to address than simply changing the way we present ourselves to newcomers at the front door. I'm speculating, of course, but that is my take on it.