Is the light and dark?

ནའдհдཀ༑ནკ wrote:

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote: label-it as you like and act as you wish.

I honestly don't like this quote. I don't think it's about acting as we are expected to but we have to be held to some standard of action.

If one is absolved of consequence because they take this quote literally and state that it's what YOU told them.

My view: there is no God to grovel to, no authority to punish or reward us, no afterlife to look forward to. (And if there is, I'll find out in due time)

To be a Jedi is to learn the relationship of cause and consequence, and act according to your own will. Not some God's. Not because a Code told you to. There is no outside authority. Everything you do is all you.

Codes and rules and such are simply an attempt at a description of reality. Jottings on a map. But the map is not the terrain. And you are no child, you don't get to cry and blame the map for taking the wrong way.

ནའдհдཀ༑ནკ wrote: Where I work we have a homeless issue. I sympathize with them due to the conditions they must endure, but I have a responsibility to the facility I monitor and cannot accept them loitering in my facility. Some of these people are people who cannot take proper care of themselves. Do I have a responsibility to them that goes against the regulations of my facility management?

I can get self management, ensuring that I act as I perceive a good person should, but won't there always be someone who sees what I'm doing as mean or evil?

Let's go back to the questions I posed:

Are you actively hurting yourself?
No, no you are not- because this is about your livelihood. Unfortunately, you have to have money to get along in this world. You might be mentally anguished by the problem, in which case, I would tell you that if it's getting to you maybe you should seek out a new job or go see a psychologist about the problem so you can find a resolution to your mental anguish over it.

Are you actively hurting someone else?
Unless you are actually being (vocally) cruel or getting unnecessarily (use of force applies) physical with them when you tell them they to get off of the property, then no- you're not actively hurting them. They have other options.

It's not about whether or not what one person perceives as being "evil" or "mean" by some random person. That's where being Objective comes in.

Now, is there something you -could- do? Something that might help the situation? Maybe, but it requires you knowing a lot about the area you operate in. What shelters are around, what outreach programs might be able to get out where you are and work with this homeless community to help them get off the streets appropriately. And even at that, there may be no programs that could help them. But if you wanted to do something for them, that's where I would start.

Sven One wrote: I agree that it's narrow minded to only observe the light side of what we view as the Force and versus to shut out all dark sides of the force and you cannot I believe not all of them. Now, of course I do not support "forced" views on society or how one should live and it really depends on your country that you live in what is deemed "lawful" even if it's not and again that is also a subject of debate based on who your talking to or referencing.

I do not again with murder, rape, forms of mental or physical abuse to someone, forcings ones beliefs onto someone else, drunkenness, drugs, child abuse and so on...and these are just some of the things I don't agree with and you can agree with them or not and that is fine. Are these signs of dark sides of the Force? In my opinion yes but, to others no.

Anger, is a hard one and one that as a Jedi I think we should refrain from but, everyone gets angry at some point but, it's also what you do with it. Fictional and non fictional Jedi believe Anger is of The Dark side.

Passion, I think often is one of those grey areas IMO because I am a person that wants to be passionate about what I do in life. Who wants to be too serious all the time?

Just a few that I can think of atm if I come up with more I'll post.

"Anger is of The Dark side." Anger is a natural emotion and is not of the dark side unless used and abuse excessively. Then it is a tool of the dark side used by the evil. No different than a: gun, knife or club etc.

There is no light and there is no dark, the is only existence. These two things are ways in which we use lenses to precieve the reality we wish to alter. This is why there is moral conflict. I will not say that I don't have my perceptions of what is light and what is dark but they are in fact irrelevant to the existence of the Force.

ནའдհдཀ༑ནკ wrote:
Honestly I'd go with this being a church thing, as Kyrin stated that they don't believe in an afterlife does that suggest we don't believe we live on through the force after this life?

Honestly your comments about energy and life are pretty close to how I feel about it as well. Energy is something that goes on no matter what. The energy that is me will eventually break up and become a thousand other things in the future - maybe even a part of new life in a tree or a plant or an animal. However the being that I am, the distinct entity, has never existed before and will never exist again. Meaning I don't believe some cohesive blob of energy/consciousness/soul that is me will inhabit another body in the future. I also believe in ancestral energy. Everyone that came before me in my ancestry is a part of me and that will be carried forward into my offspring in the next generation. Maybe we even carry some of our ancestors memory, somewhere locked in our genetic makeup. There is research going on now that suggests this.

Found my way here courtesy of the shoutbox. Let's see what I can make of this one... (Sorry if it's short and if I repeat points already made. I'm in a tiny bit of a hurry right now.)

First, in regards to the OP, yes TOTJO tends to be of the mindset of allowing people to practice as they wish. By that I mean, TOTJO takes no issue if you want to consider yourself a Christian Jedi, a Pagan Jedi (of any brand), or even an atheist Jedi. By that same token, TOTJO takes no issue if you want to consider Jediism your personal religion or a personal philosophy / life style. Also, we tend to recognize that each person's path is individual and how you get to the answers you seek is going to be unique to you, and the goal of Jediism is equally unique because of that.

So, now that I've addressed that, I'm going to go to the comment that brought me here in the first place:

The common recurring comment of however you feel about it is what you should do. But if I were to apply it literally at any moment, if I feel like killing or raping I should because that is what I sense is good for me at that moment.

If I were to state that I was pursuing guidance from the dark side, an outsider for sure would read into this to suggest that WE are okay with that because WE don't have set guidelines pertaining to a person's personal practices.

One, I believe you've misunderstood TOTJO's willingness to accept those of different paths on the site. As TOTJO is a place of learning, yes those who follow a "dark path" tend to be allowed here. However, they have to follow the rules of the site as much as you or I. However, that said, because TOTJO is a place that encourages the individual path, there is no we being ok with anything... And to piggyback off of what Manu said:

Just as a general disclaimer, no member of this organization is ok with murder or rape. The Doctrine should let on at least as much.

So that leads me to the doctrine. I'm gonna just copy a few lines on the front page itself and not get into the actual doctrine:

• In the Force, and in the inherent worth of all life within it.
• In the sanctity of the human person. We oppose the use of torture and cruel or unusual punishment, including the death penalty.

First, these two lines make it very clear that Jediism as it is taught at TOTJO does not accept rape and murder as something that is acceptable. Both actions actively attack the worth of a person's life and violate their personal sanctity. So no, you don't get to say that just because you feel it's ok to rape or murder someone, an outsider coming by might see that as TOTJO's endorsement of your activity in taking the "each person as a personal path" approach. No one here would sanction such activities and it's right there on the front page.

Now, our front page also comments on moral ambiguity, but here's the thing: generally speaking, on a global level, rape and murder are not considered morally ambiguous. They are met with disdain and basically every government has laws punishing murderers and rapists. There are very few things that we as humans have agreed upon, but the wrongness of murder and rape are two of those things.

I say "generally speaking" because I saw someone comment about ISIL in a post. Yes, there are outlying, extremist organizations out there that take a far looser moral approach to such actions; these organizations are generally considered by the rest of the world as being cults, terrorist organizations, and generally threats to human society as a whole, and therefore do not negate the fact that the rest of human society considers their actions wrong and repugnant.


[hr]
As a reminder, there are those who come through these halls, digital though they may be, who have suffered first hand from these sorts of actions being committed either against them or in front of them / against someone whom they love. Many of them come here looking for a new place to call their spiritual home while they are in recovery or even post-recovery from such actions. Casual discussions on the moral ambiguity on such things such as this one can cause undue hardship on their road to recovery, while giving a first time viewer who has gone through such things the entirely wrong impression, regardless of where they are on their path to recovery.

Honestly, I would say that any discussion on the moral ambiguity of rape and murder doesn't belong here, but I'm not a mod and it's not my decision to make. That said, if you really want to spend a thread commenting on how actions can be morally ambiguous, there are far better actions to choose from than rape or murder. I would ask in the future, you look to those other actions and not these extremes. Please, and thank you.

Rickie wrote:

Sven One wrote: I agree that it's narrow minded to only observe the light side of what we view as the Force and versus to shut out all dark sides of the force and you cannot I believe not all of them. Now, of course I do not support "forced" views on society or how one should live and it really depends on your country that you live in what is deemed "lawful" even if it's not and again that is also a subject of debate based on who your talking to or referencing.

I do not again with murder, rape, forms of mental or physical abuse to someone, forcings ones beliefs onto someone else, drunkenness, drugs, child abuse and so on...and these are just some of the things I don't agree with and you can agree with them or not and that is fine. Are these signs of dark sides of the Force? In my opinion yes but, to others no.

Anger, is a hard one and one that as a Jedi I think we should refrain from but, everyone gets angry at some point but, it's also what you do with it. Fictional and non fictional Jedi believe Anger is of The Dark side.

Passion, I think often is one of those grey areas IMO because I am a person that wants to be passionate about what I do in life. Who wants to be too serious all the time?

Just a few that I can think of atm if I come up with more I'll post.

"Anger is of The Dark side." Anger is a natural emotion and is not of the dark side unless used and abuse excessively. Then it is a tool of the dark side used by the evil. No different than a: gun, knife or club etc.

Kobos wrote: There is no light and there is no dark, the is only existence. These two things are ways in which we use lenses to precieve the reality we wish to alter. This is why there is moral conflict. I will not say that I don't have my perceptions of what is light and what is dark but they are in fact irrelevant to the existence of the Force.

I would dare to argue this. After all, nearly all religious beginnings state that in the beginning there was only darkness. Light was brought into being and from that we were created. My interpretation of this is that we are beings of light, thus succumbing to the darkness is against our very existence. I would agree that they are in fact lenses of the greater FORCE. Science states that energy can not be destroyed only transitioned into another form. That also suggests that we, being built of energy must transition into another state when our bodies stop functioning. Energy does not just dissipate it transforms.

If I connect the dots here, regardless how I live my energy returns to the force. However, do I become dark energy or LIFE (light) energy? This is simply my perception and as it has been stated, I cannot state that it is true beyond my own belief. Again, I suggest that I am not just living as I see fit, I have learned these things that set my beliefs and impressed upon me that they are truth. If I would have lived as I wanted, I might not have attended school, lost the desire to continue to learn and then I likely would not believe these things. I again suggest that we live by a code, rules, and based on learned practices, not on any old random whim.

I believe that the light is a path we have been in some way predestined to follow, but that darkness is there to distract us and tempt us away from the light. This does not mean that we cannot explore and handle the darkside within us, after all darkness was there first. We are demonstrating to the force that we deserve to continue to support life by avoiding the temptations of the darkside. The IPs basically spell this out for us in how Campbell talks about Myths, Legends, and the story of the Hero.

What is the point of the IP if not to learn this? What is the point of life if not to grow and continually learn to support and protect the sacredness of life in connection with the force, both light and dark. I know you won't tell me that my interpretations are wrong as they are mine and that is all that matters as has been stated again and again in this post, but could it be? When I read the doctrine posted on this site, it also suggests and prompts these ideals in me as well.

I feel like we are encouraging something in those that come here through the doctrine and the lessons that are presented here. I don't see that we are simply accepting the statement of "Do what you want, live as you will, believe whatever, because there is guidance here to help members learn to accept something that maybe they haven't yet learned. Interpretations may vary, practices may vary, and beliefs may vary but we are still being presented instructions and concepts to develop a greater understanding of the all encompassing force are we not?

Avalon wrote: Found my way here courtesy of the shoutbox. Let's see what I can make of this one... (Sorry if it's short and if I repeat points already made. I'm in a tiny bit of a hurry right now.)

First, in regards to the OP, yes TOTJO tends to be of the mindset of allowing people to practice as they wish. By that I mean, TOTJO takes no issue if you want to consider yourself a Christian Jedi, a Pagan Jedi (of any brand), or even an atheist Jedi. By that same token, TOTJO takes no issue if you want to consider Jediism your personal religion or a personal philosophy / life style. Also, we tend to recognize that each person's path is individual and how you get to the answers you seek is going to be unique to you, and the goal of Jediism is equally unique because of that.

So, now that I've addressed that, I'm going to go to the comment that brought me here in the first place:

The common recurring comment of however you feel about it is what you should do. But if I were to apply it literally at any moment, if I feel like killing or raping I should because that is what I sense is good for me at that moment.

If I were to state that I was pursuing guidance from the dark side, an outsider for sure would read into this to suggest that WE are okay with that because WE don't have set guidelines pertaining to a person's personal practices.

One, I believe you've misunderstood TOTJO's willingness to accept those of different paths on the site. As TOTJO is a place of learning, yes those who follow a "dark path" tend to be allowed here. However, they have to follow the rules of the site as much as you or I. However, that said, because TOTJO is a place that encourages the individual path, there is no we being ok with anything... And to piggyback off of what Manu said:

Just as a general disclaimer, no member of this organization is ok with murder or rape. The Doctrine should let on at least as much.

So that leads me to the doctrine. I'm gonna just copy a few lines on the front page itself and not get into the actual doctrine:

• In the Force, and in the inherent worth of all life within it.
• In the sanctity of the human person. We oppose the use of torture and cruel or unusual punishment, including the death penalty.

First, these two lines make it very clear that Jediism as it is taught at TOTJO does not accept rape and murder as something that is acceptable. Both actions actively attack the worth of a person's life and violate their personal sanctity. So no, you don't get to say that just because you feel it's ok to rape or murder someone, an outsider coming by might see that as TOTJO's endorsement of your activity in taking the "each person as a personal path" approach. No one here would sanction such activities and it's right there on the front page.

Now, our front page also comments on moral ambiguity, but here's the thing: generally speaking, on a global level, rape and murder are not considered morally ambiguous. They are met with disdain and basically every government has laws punishing murderers and rapists. There are very few things that we as humans have agreed upon, but the wrongness of murder and rape are two of those things.

I say "generally speaking" because I saw someone comment about ISIL in a post. Yes, there are outlying, extremist organizations out there that take a far looser moral approach to such actions; these organizations are generally considered by the rest of the world as being cults, terrorist organizations, and generally threats to human society as a whole, and therefore do not negate the fact that the rest of human society considers their actions wrong and repugnant.


[hr]
As a reminder, there are those who come through these halls, digital though they may be, who have suffered first hand from these sorts of actions being committed either against them or in front of them / against someone whom they love. Many of them come here looking for a new place to call their spiritual home while they are in recovery or even post-recovery from such actions. Casual discussions on the moral ambiguity on such things such as this one can cause undue hardship on their road to recovery, while giving a first time viewer who has gone through such things the entirely wrong impression, regardless of where they are on their path to recovery.

Honestly, I would say that any discussion on the moral ambiguity of rape and murder doesn't belong here, but I'm not a mod and it's not my decision to make. That said, if you really want to spend a thread commenting on how actions can be morally ambiguous, there are far better actions to choose from than rape or murder. I would ask in the future, you look to those other actions and not these extremes. Please, and thank you.

Any impression that I have presented that these aspects of life are anything other than despicable, I apologize for. I believe I have such venom for these things, and as such presented them in this forum, because I have first had experience with both of these extreme actions. This is why I have to refute the statement of "Live as you WANT," or "Do what you WANT." Members of my family has suffered because someone acted on this mantra and did what THEY wanted. We should live as we are taught, and we should be taught to respect and treasure all life. There are people who do believe that these things are okay and I feel that we should have an obligation to combat this mindset, however, the statement that we should not interfere with someone's beliefs and allow them to live as they want IMO encourages these despicable acts, as tolerable and truly marginalizes them as something we just need to accept.

I can only assume that this is why I cannot accept this common reference that has been repeated again and again throughout this post, "Act as you want."

ནའдհдཀ༑ནკ wrote: From another discussion...

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote: No one is denied anything here really. As far as practices are concerned . Eveynone is encouraged to take their own path and practice and take their own lead on things for themselfs and their own life's.

Just a question to this statement, IF I was choosing a practice and/or a path that was obviously leading to the dark side, would it still be encouraged? If that was my views my hope and desire to come to power by idolizing one such as the mythical persona of Emperor Palpatine?

Honestly I've heard some discussion that have given me pause on this. If my view was that the only way the "evils" of the world could be beaten or controlled we're only if I come to power and force everyone to live just and proper lives, would that received encouragement or no?

There is a country music song I heard, "Most people are good" I believe is the title. And if most people are good or light, do we still accept one obviously in pursuit of the dark.

We have rules and laws as a society that might interfere with one person's personal ideals, but for the betterment of society as a whole we ask them to control this ideal. Honestly I kind of feel like the statement, "do what makes you feel good," is an opening dialog for anarchy.

However, at the same time laying down strict and adherent guidelines is a form of enacting a dictatorship.

Simply put, I'd assume that our goal for being in this faith, is to allow us to someday rejoice in our reabsorbing to the life force without fear that death is the end of life. And from that teachings should be guiding us to that goal correct.

So if someone pursuing a dark path should be intervened with to prevent them from having a fear of death and a pursuit of finding a way to extend life indefinitely? I guess my point being in most every other religion, there is black and white with very little gray, but in Jediism it feels like there might actually be more gray than light or dark that we are meant to review.

I know we don't want to tread on a persons personal views, but as I stated in the OP, I feel there comes a time that we have a responsibility to attempt to direct a person down a different path than their current chosen one, that is really all I am saying here. And what I have been asking is WHEN is that point, and HOW do we go about it in a proper and respectful manner.

Avalon wrote: Honestly, I would say that any discussion on the moral ambiguity of rape and murder doesn't belong here, but I'm not a mod and it's not my decision to make. That said, if you really want to spend a thread commenting on how actions can be morally ambiguous, there are far better actions to choose from than rape or murder. I would ask in the future, you look to those other actions and not these extremes. Please, and thank you.

I can understand your reasons for saying this and I know that it can be a sensitive subject for some. However I don't think its right to ask that it not be discussed. Its really an attempt at censorship and while this place has certain rules on censored language it does not include the discussion of any subject such as this. Instead It would be better to ask simply that if these are discussed that they be discussed with the utmost attention to their sensitive nature.

ནའдհдཀ༑ནკ wrote: I would dare to argue this. After all, nearly all religious beginnings state that in the beginning there was only darkness. Light was brought into being and from that we were created. My interpretation of this is that we are beings of light, thus succumbing to the darkness is against our very existence.

I think this might be an equivocation in the term darkness. In one aspect you seem to use it in the context of the absence of light and later use it in the context of evil. Given the idea that this description is a poetic interpretation of the creation of the universe, wouldn't this mean that "The Force" one thing that would be considered eternal, is darkness itself? and from that light emerged? In this concept there is also the idea that the universe will return to The Force in heat death, so isn't darkness inevitable no matter how much we fight against it?

oh, so you did find it.