Force Powers

I think Forceuser believes in him and what he says. What I am trying to tell you is that although you do not subscribe to its history, it may not be useful to question everything.

He just wanted to speak on something personal that seems to be close to his heart. The way you question everything (something I appreciate) is not going to make him want to open up.

What would you say to people who believe in the theory of evolution and those who believe in religion? Adam and Eve vs The theory of evolution?

The theory of evolution is constantly changing because new discoveries which are added to accentuate or refute other discoveries. We could therefore say that this theory is neither true nor false.

Some religions tell us (In a nutshell) that God created man in his image. What is the evidence apart from the writings?

Would you say that the whole planet is wrong? Or according to your belief, would you say that only a part is wrong?

You could also say that everyone is right because you can neither refute nor validate everything.

Forceuser thinks that he has faculties, he also thinks that they are powers of Force.

Although like you I do not agree with what he says, neither will I tell him that he is lying or that he is wrong. Maybe in these words, he tries to tell us something else.

As a Jedi we must be intelligent and critical, but we must also let people believe.

Do you ask all the believers you know (maybe you are) to give evidence of the existence of their god? You can give all the arguments you want, they will tell you that God exists and that he created man in his image.

It would be an endless debate until the answer to all questions is known.

Gisteron wrote: <snip>...All in all I'm not saying your partner's grandmother wasn't clairaudient (though, needless to say, I have my doubts). But generally speaking I would invite to ask oneself questions like these about anyone claiming such powers, including oneself, before relying on voices of this sort. In fact, I think one is well advised to seek out medical attention, if one hears voices of any sort, benevolent or helpful or otherwise, before assuming that it must be divine communication or a psychic power.

You raise an interesting point about medical attention, not because the medical community is not really in a position to understand the function of the brain sufficiently to deploy particularly effective therapeutic application IMO, but because in my limited experience in this there is a distinct difference between hallucinatory voices and prophetic voices. Not just the peculiar and useful timing but the nature of the experience of them, for they again only in my experience, are distinctly clear and precisely timed. Versus hallucinatory voices which are often extended, on the periphery of intelligibility and variability in clarity and content. Reading that back it sounds a bit trivial, but in terms of the experience of voice it's like those things represent very distinct energy levels such that they almost feel entirely different types of experience (but not necessarily as I've only very limited experience with this stuff).

In regards to the mental health advice, it might be worth nothing that the medical community seems to be only really capable of providing a basic level of care rather then an effective systematic cure, and as such they have tended to a definition of mental disease which is less characterized by the presence of how society might define 'unusual' symptoms - to instead a place of providing care for people who need it.... the inevitable by-product of the slow pace of developing knowledge and technology in these complex fields causing a disproportionate awareness and capability in treating symptoms rather then causes. To the extent that a Doctor might ask a person presenting with mild symptoms if it is a problem, and if not..... do nothing. So I think it's more effective advice to tell someone who has symptoms you might classify as abnormal to visit a Doc if its giving them concern, rather then making a blanket assertion that the presence alone of symptoms which you yourself might consider to be abnormal associates their difference to what you consider unhealthy or damaged. Otherwise it can come off to others as you sneakily telling them they have a mental health problem, and its obvious to others.... which for most people is fine, but runs the risk of making actual vulnerable people feel more pain, because when it comes to psychological unsolicited advice your words can be equivalent to a prodding finger in an open wound; ie it's not like a nasty cut, where it's useful advice to tell someone they should get a Doc to have a look at that wound. IMO it's much better to promote the empowerment of the person you might think has a probem, by keeping the topic distinct from their identity as a healthy person - unless your a qualified medical practitioner of course!?

Sidetracked, but I only mention it because on these topics its easy for less well meaning folk to pick up on that habit of purporting to offer helpful advice in such a way as to actual demean and depower a person in an argument. Not to suggest you gave that impression to me.

But back to the topic, the 'power' as such in this case seems very inconsistent which is why it couldn't be called a skill. It's existence remains without clear cause so falls into the god of the gaps. Which I'm not sure is a bad thing if one has an interest and application in closing that gap.

Adder wrote: ... in my limited experience in this there is a distinct difference between hallucinatory voices and prophetic voices. Not just the peculiar and useful timing but the nature of the experience of them, for they again only in my experience, are distinctly clear and precisely timed. Versus hallucinatory voices which are often extended, on the periphery of intelligibility and variability in clarity and content.

Yet, who is to say that only one kind is prophetic? Maybe the clear and well-timed ones are the ones we can most easily link to events happening at later dates. But just because such links are easier to draw - and of course they would be, if the content of the voice's message is so much clearer - does that mean that they are less actual in what you call the hallucinatory voice? Perhaps there is research into it that I am unaware of. Even recognizing the qualitative distinction you are drawing, I'm hesitant to recognize "prophetic" and "hallucinatory" as more than classifications for now. What testable and successful theory predicts that supernatural revelations would not come in vague or extended sensations? What is the reason that a clear and conveniently timed message cannot be but a trick of one's mind, healthy or otherwise?

So I think it's more effective advice to tell someone who has symptoms you might classify as abnormal to visit a Doc if its giving them concern, rather then making a blanket assertion that the presence alone of symptoms which you yourself might consider to be abnormal associates their difference to what you consider unhealthy or damaged.

Well... Granted, hearing voices is not something I would personally think of as a mark of mental health. However, I am not qualified to make a diagnosis about such matters, so I don't go around telling people that they have a problem, let alone what sort of actions they need to take to remedy it, though, admittedly, the passage you quote from my post sounds very much like that's exactly what I'm doing. What I'm recommending is for people most of whom would be as unqualified in the area of mental health as myself to refrain from diagnosing themselves and to instead seek out the opinion of a trained professional. Perhaps there is bias in my perspective, as I happen to live in a country where healthcare is both affordable and excellent. To me, the question of whether or not some abnormality gives the patient worry is a secondary one, because I overlook that in some places even getting looked at by a doctor already counts as a form of treatment and comes with a bill attached. Moreover, to me the mere recognition - or perception, as the case may be - that something out of the ordinary is going on is already an admission that there is something there worth having a look at. Where I'm coming from, I'd rather have someone visit a doctor and walk away assured that there was nothing to worry about, than decide for themselves beforehand that there wasn't, and fail to find out while there was still time.

Sure, but it seems your assuming whomever it was intended for haven't already.... and while I like the better to be safe then sorry angle, its only when its not running the risk of causing its own harm. Anyway, I know what I mean lol.

But the early intervention has merit on its own as from what I've read psychosis has a distinct initial phase called prodromal, which if addressed within could have a better chance of avoiding an enduring psychosis. Neurons that fire together, wire together, so grinning and bearing mental health 'problems' might not be the best course of action. But everyone is different, and different is not unhealthy... unless it causes problems for the person and/or their contacts, AFAIK. As obviously what we call normal is because its been through a process of normalization! :silly:

What would you say to people who believe in the theory of evolution and those who believe in religion? Adam and Eve vs The theory of evolution?

The theory of evolution is constantly changing because new discoveries which are added to accentuate or refute other discoveries. We could therefore say that this theory is neither true nor false.

I appreciate your insight. Here's how I would answer that question.

The theory of Evolution is still a "theory" because theory means a little bit more when used in science. Evolution has actually been reproduced in laboratory conditions with bacteria. The point you were trying to make is understandable. However, when someone makes a claim that unicorns are real, for example... I'd like a little more evidence than just their word because there's no zoo that has ever had one, no safari that's ever spotted one, etc. And people sometimes spend years looking for "Nessi" or Big Foot because they are believers.

But to me, these mythical creatures fall in the category of "very unlikely". Because it's not outrageous to think that a horse could grow a horn like a deer. But if you tell me its a magical horse, now you've crossed the line. Now you are supporting the existence of a unicorn based on a belief in magic. Prove magic exists. Do that first. Then let's talk about your unicorn. I'll be much more persuadable.

There are people who can easily believe a human can walk on water. They don't question how. Someone says it happened and they don't question that person's credibility. They believe because they want to believe in magic. And they believe in magic because they want to believe in God as the ultimate genie and magic user... or "forceuser" if you will.

But magic came about because of human ignorance; because we saw things we couldn't explain. But as we developed tools and intelligence we created science to investigate and explain those things we didn't understand and thus superstitions were replaced by knowledge and experience. Man can fly now, not because of levitation and some magical ability to defy gravity, but because of understanding aerodynamics and lift; by understanding and working with, not against, the laws of physics.

But there always seems to be two camps. Those who want to believe and those who want to know. And believers often believe so strongly that they compare their belief to knowledge and experience. They tell you they saw an angel or an alien ship. But chances are these things were in their minds as possibilities before they saw them. I simply think of this as confirmation bias. Biases do affect science as well, but the difference in science is that it is falsifiable. It's trying to prove something is true by testing it, not by saying "oh there's some things we should just take on faith". No, science classifies those things and makes sure that we know it hasn't been proven to an absolute certainty. Doesn't mean it isn't true, but that we can't say 100% this is why it works that way. Our "math" could still be wrong.

I'm still seeing things in science that feel like magic so that wonder is still there for me. I've seen levitation, but levitation caused by magnetism which is one of the forces of nature. So I simply don't buy into the idea that some ideas simply cannot be explained. There could be things you can't prove. But can you explain how you can control the physical forces between objects with your mind? It's too convenient to say, "I can do it, but... I don't have control so I can't prove it." Well then, how do you know then that YOU are the one doing whatever you perceive is coming from you? To me that is simply another bias. If you want to have super powers and believe its possible, how far a stretch is it really? ... to imagine that something caused by other forces is actually being caused by you?

Like I said, if you kick a ball high enough into the air, air currents can act on that ball to change its trajectory. I've seen it. When I play basketball I know that if I spin the ball a certain way I can make it come back to me. That's not magic or the force. That's physics. I can spin a basketball on my finger long enough to see how more skilled people can do it much longer. That's not the force. That's the physical force you apply to the ball and the balance of how its weight shifts on your finger. A lot of people use spin when bowling to perform strikes. Some use a curve so sharp it almost goes into the gutter. I use a slight curve that looks more like its going straight because I only need the head pin to fall at within a particular degree span. Again... that's physics. It can be amazing to watch (well not me, but other bowlers and athletes), but its still based on physics.

And when everything we know for sure is based on certain laws or premises, and someone comes along and tells you those basic fundamental premises can be circumvented by just the mind when the mind exerts no physical force... sorry but I need a LITTLE MORE to buy into something so WORLD CHANGING, than just the word of someone on the internet. I remember not long ago I was commenting on a video about how game changing Unreal's new 3D engine is because of its unlimited polygons. And someone was like "you're just a guy on the internet". And that's so true. It's important to understand that. It helps keeps things in perspective. So my interest in game development, even though older in age than many gamers, my experience with both programming and 3D graphics... all has to be taken with a grain of salt. I haven't built credibility with everyone and no one needs to believe me. That's so very true. And I'm not asking anyone to, because I understand that I'm just a guy on the internet.

But likewise, so is forceuser (with all due respect to him). So if we keep that in perspective the burden of proof is on the believer, not on science or more science-minded folk to try and prove the believer wrong.

I am only a very small dot on this screen. Nothing more

For those very few who can see something might not be as it seems.
Maybe for a laugh look into the placebo effect.

And just maybe you will find some thing science can't explain where others have totally healed them selves of things that could and should not be possible.
Only by the thought energy of one person.

For some this will be the tip of the iceberg.
For others it will be a giant wall that can't be overcome

forceuser wrote: I am only a very small dot on this screen. Nothing more

For those very few who can see something might not be as it seems.
Maybe for a laugh look into the placebo effect.

And just maybe you will find some thing science can't explain where others have totally healed them selves of things that could and should not be possible.
Only by the thought energy of one person.

For some this will be the tip of the iceberg.
For others it will be a giant wall that can't be overcome

In my opinion, and with all due respect, you are simply trying to use the placebo effect outside of its context.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/brain-sense/201201/the-placebo-effect-how-it-works#:~:text=Estimates%20of%20the%20placebo%20cure,pain%2C%20mood%2C%20or%20attitude.

If this placebo effect could explain (even remotely) any sort of "magical ability", then it would be reasonable that we could do an experiment in which a certain percentage of us would be able to levitate objects with our minds.

"In some respects, the placebo effect offers the best of all possible alternatives: therapeutic effects without the risk of negative side effects. That's why dozens of brain researchers are working to sort through the complexity of the numerous brain regions and neurotransmitters that produce placebo results. Theirs is no easy task. The placebo effect is not a single phenomenon, but the result of the complex interplay of anatomical, biochemical, and psychological factors. The same can be said for all our perceptions, I suspect. We see, hear, taste, touch, and smell pretty much what we expect to."

The mind, I'll be the first to say, is an extremely powerful biomechanical computer. That being said, no matter how amazing a PC gets it cannot perform real magic. You could increase the processing power by orders of terraflops and it still wouldn't be able to exactly predict the future, only probabilities.

But the amazing thing is that anyone can make predictions, even with a normal brain, that will sometimes come true. All the experience you have in your brain applied to your knowledge of history and the result is what you think will happen. This is an educated guess and you're likely to be more right than if you were guessing blindly. And even if you are very wrong, perhaps someone else will be very right. A million people making a million different predictions, someone is most likely going to get it right just like someone is likely to guess the right number and win the lottery.

These effects are due to statistical anomalies, not magic, not ability or foresight. The person who guessed the future isn't suddenly Nostradamus. And we shouldn't suddenly follow them or ask for their wisdom.

I can hit a half court shot backwards. I've done it more than once. Can I do it on command? Is it magic? Absolutely not. So what does it mean? Nothing. Just that I grew up trying to make crazy shots so I adapted different techniques to make it more likely to succeed. Does that make me a magician? No.

The article I posted talks about the fact that headaches go away on their own. So even though people should know that many people might equate the pill they're taking to headache relief; ESPECIALLY if the pill says that it may take 20-30 minutes to "work". How then do you know it was the pill, and not the headache going away because of the conditions for making the headache, much like a thunderstorm, have subsided.

And to me, that's what a headache is like. It's simply like a thunderstorm in your brain.

Nothing I'm saying is meant to dismiss you or say that you're lying or whatever else. I don't know you hardly enough to say any of those things. What I'm saying is that perhaps you are like those people in the study that thought their headaches going away was the result of the pill they were given because that was the idea in their own heads... their "belief".

You can believe something with absolute certainty. And you convince yourself so strongly and thoroughly that you convince others by your sincerity. But that doesn't mean there isn't another logical explanation for what you experienced. That's all I'm saying.

It seems like we are talking about two different things.

So I guess its possible you made a basketball shot from half court.
But some people want to believe they can make that shot so bad they actually talk themselves into believing they made it.
Maybe even your friends want to support you so much they even believe you made it.

I guess we could all set around all day and belittle
Every thing that has happened around the world

For example if you saw a man lift up the car you are driving with one hand.

You would talk yourself and everyone around you into believing it was because helium in the tires. Or on a calm day maybe it was the wind.

Or maybe it was the heavy bag the small girl just put in the trunk that offset the balance of the car and made it possible .

See I guess that was easy. now we have it all figured out how the guy did.

It seems we have hit that wall we cant get over again.

So for me anyway I'm just going to take a few steps and walk around it.

But that doesn't mean there isn't another logical explanation for what you experienced.


From cannon -
There was a Jedi master who could Force lightening a different color. When presented to the Council he was told - that’s yours do with it as you will - aaaaaand he disappeared in meditation for quite some time.


Results may vary as well as definitions and labels and identifications

Too sure
Some of us are - I know I get too sure some times. Almost about anything after a while. It’s a student thing. Think about it - the longer some one learns - the harder the hubris fall or the higher they build. It’s pretty common.


Logical or not - there seems to be MORE than one explanation for a few things.
Hope this helps

I think you are a 100% right on 99.9% of things that happen in life there is usually a good explanation for it even if we are unable to see or understand it at the time.
Even if we don't understand it. I would say you are right I'm sure there's anomalies or things that just happen that we don't understand but still explainable.
From others with far more knowledge or experience.

And I'm sure it is hard to understand unless you have experienced things for yourself but I am talking about the 0.001% of things that.
Just don't make sense physically scientifically or mathematically.

You Would have to throw it in the category of an act of G-d ,
Witchcraft
Sorcery
Paranormal.
Using drugs or alcohol
Hallucinations.
Or a psychological disorder.
or force power just because I don't really know how to define it.

I guess you would have to systematically go through and deduct what happened very thoroughly on each one of these possibilities.

And most of the time I try to only give accounts of things that multiple people have also witnessed.

Because some of the things I've experienced you would swear was science fiction .
And That it's hard to believe.

And of course I dare not say anything.

I'm pretty sure the few people who can relate to what I'm saying are people who have experienced something similar. Or they have strong Telepathy/Psychic abilities.

I'm sure for everyone else I don't blame you this totally sounds like someone who's on drugs or heavy medication. Or
Severe psychological problems.

I totally understand and I don't mind the hate mail.
I'm not looking to change people's minds or make friends
I have to say it would be nice to find someone else who had similar experiences who can relate to What I'm saying, because it can be a pretty lonely place.

That's why life seems to go so much better when one's mind is focused on work and the immediate things around us.

Like
Getting more education the environment . politics . work.Religion.etc.