Is the water live?

OB1Shinobi wrote:

Fyxe wrote: Its the embracing of ignorance over knowledge.

Didnt you once try to make a rational case in defense of belief in santa clause?

No I dont think so? But what if I did? He is an idea right? Something that evolved in culture over time and something that we pass on to the kids and actually take action to make real as adults? So is Santa claus real? Yes of course he is. Hes real because we are all real, he is everyone that has ever put a present under the tree for another with the name Santa on it. Jediism could be this same thing! Instead we play here and just fight with each other over these ideas and just pretend we are changing the world instead of actually going out and doing it.

Fyxe wrote: How do you know it's a fairy tale?

What you chose to believe in is up to you. I like my belief to be reflexive, open source, and deeply referential to objective reality :blink:

Fyxe wrote: Why would you even say that?

Because you just posted about the nature of belief in Jediism.

Fyxe wrote: Can you prove your claim that it's a fairy tale?

Prove what is a fairytale?

Fyxe wrote: Why would you even write a fairy tale about it?

You already asked that two sentences ago, see my answer abv.

Fyxe wrote: Why not write what is believed about it?

Because belief is a tool, some tools are complex and some are simple, find what suits you, but the framework of Jediism allows the range from simple to complex. It seems you either don't get it or don't agree and like to tell everyone else they are wrong... so feel free to ask yourself the same questions as you do here, or justify your own position as part of the asking.

Fyxe wrote: What is true for jedi?

Firsthand experience, trust, honesty, and commitment I suppose, but I prefer the term accuracy to truth.

NOPE, wrong on all counts.

Believe is not a choice or a tool. You cant choose what to believe in. it just happens. so what do you believe about the force? I mean what do you actually believe about its structure, where it came from, where its going and why it exists?

Then write about that and make it a doctrine. then live by it.

Fyxe wrote: ... jedi here love their knowledge right? But then all over the doctrine here there are soft areas that skim over this tenet and ignore the actual fact that we dont really know anything about the force or consciousness or where the universe even came from. Every religion except this jediism has clear and exact descriptions of the nature of reality, how it got here, the agencies involved and the process done to make it. But the one religion that puts knowledge highest does none of this.

Correct. Now read what you wrote in that passage agan, take a step back, and think. Why is that so? What is it about a commitment to knowledge that makes people admit when they are lacking some?

See, it's very easy to just make up nonsense and proclaim it to be gospel truth. It's so easy, thousands upon thousands of prophets have done so throughout history, and more are coming up every day. What few were heard gathered a following and what retained it after their passing had it evolve into churches. And how many blood was shed in an effort to find out who is right in the end, who has any of their gods truly on their side!

There is no confronting ignorance without acknowledging it. No crusade starts by thinking there no lands to conquer. Ignorance is maintained only by and within those who think they have it all long figured out already, those who think they have nothing left to learn, that they have the definitive, final answers, the final solutions to all the world's problems. Knowledge, on the other hand, is accumulated by the humble. Not the overly virtuous pseudo-humble, who keep singing songs of their ignorance, hoping to be compared to Socrates, the wisest of them all, but those who rightly acknowledge and admit their limitations and work on expanding their horizons. Knowledge isn't grown in those who already know, nor those who think they cannot know, but in those who have yet more to learn and are willing to get on with it. Ignorant is not the one who keeps pushing the issues, begging to learn more, questioning themselves and those around them, and everything anyone thinks they know so well. Ignorant are those who'd rather have the answers handed to them, lest they ever need to think on their own again, as are those who make up their own truths, revealed to them by what they convinced themselves to be the ultimate authority - even if it is but their own and naught else - never to be challenged again.
Ignorant is not the one who doesn't know, Fyxe. Ignorant is the one who won't.

... present something, anything outside of the realm of science and look out!!! You in for the fight of your life!!

That's incorrect. There are huge threads, even entire forum sections that operate well without any such constraints. Just because you got in a fight over scientific accuracy doesn't mean everyone has to. And you only got in such fights when ever you tried to claim scientific accuracy for your woo in the first place. That choice was entirely with you.

Know why? Because the actual doctrine here doesnt really tell us anything at all. It's not a basis for a religion that people can get behind at all! There is nothing there but a bit of ghost turd fluff and so we are all left to try and define these things on our own instead of relying in a clear and concise written doctrine that we can start using as a base of common discussion. Instead we all just start wherever we are and let the wars rage!

So... just like in every other religion, then? What's your point? What would you rather this be like? One Dear Leader^TM preaching before a bowing mass who all chant "Yes, Master!" at his every word? What's the complaint here? Is this too liberal for your liking? Too un-dogmatic? Too much about thinking and too little about obedience? Too much - dare I say it - about knowledge, and not enough about ignorance? About peace, rather than passion? About harmony rather than tyranny? What are you looking for, Fyxe? Why do drag every thread into this discussion and not leave them be about their respective topics? What is the problem?

Erinis wrote: By that statement Manu, thus: Spirituality goes beyond logic, I meant that lot of spiritual teaching,
including religions aren´t usually understood by logic only, but by feelings and intuition also. You know
for example, God, nobody saw "him", heard him, but still, the assumption is, that something had to
create us. If you can´t support it by objective facts does it mean that God doesn´t exist?

Notice what you did there? The observation for God creating us is a logical inference based on the pattern that all living things are "born" from another being. So the idea of God still arises from logical thinking. Intuition and creativity are not against logic... it simply is a novel connection made by the logical mind between previously seemingly unrelated objects/events.

Fyxe wrote:

Manu wrote: Ignorance, yet Knowledge. Though I can appreciate the ineffable aspect of "the Force"

This struck me as one of the most contradictory statements ever made!. Lol jedi here love their knowledge right? But then all over the doctrine here there are soft areas that skim over this tenet and ignore the actual fact that we dont really know anything about the force or consciousness or where the universe even came from. Every religion except this jediism has clear and exact descriptions of the nature of reality, how it got here, the agencies involved and the process done to make it. But the one religion that puts knowledge highest does none of this. Instead the doctrine is a few lines defined by a single person and put up as something we are all supposed to agree to. And when we disagree on those things its said well that's ok individual belief is great and not all has to be followed. But present something, anything outside of the realm of science and look out!!! You in for the fight of your life!!. Know why? Because the actual doctrine here doesnt really tell us anything at all. It's not a basis for a religion that people can get behind at all! There is nothing there but a bit of ghost turd fluff and so we are all left to try and define these things on our own instead of relying in a clear and concise written doctrine that we can start using as a base of common discussion. Instead we all just start wherever we are and let the wars rage!

How is the statement contradictory?

You seem to hunger for a coherent explanation regarding our origins and the mechanics of the world. You hunger for science, not religion, Haha.

Jediism as a religion is concerned with orthopraxy (how to behave) rather than orthodoxy (being told the nature of the world), and in general regard the different orthodoxies of world religions as archetypal expressions rather than hard truths.

Fyxe wrote: NOPE, wrong on all counts.

Believe is not a choice or a tool. You cant choose what to believe in. it just happens

Yes you can, I do it all the time...so who is 'wrong'?

Adder wrote:

Fyxe wrote: NOPE, wrong on all counts.

Believe is not a choice or a tool. You cant choose what to believe in. it just happens

Yes you can, I do it all the time...so who is 'wrong'?

You are. What you are describing is faith not belief.

Ever heard of the story of the wine tasters? Same car - way side the ways of explaining the taste to them. To me - this is a great representation of what we are all trying to do with the Force at one time or another-
Can some believe and have faith that water is alive and some not ? Can two different ways of being and ideas dwell in the same room or place or even path ? How can what others believe change my direct attention? Why is that on my radar? These were questions I asked myself and eventually moved from them to new questions. One of the biggest questions I asked myself during my oath was can those who arnt like me - have the same freedoms as me? Could I find the same things they did or even more? Can they understand things differently than me- yet be talking about the same thing??

Fyxe wrote:

Adder wrote:

Fyxe wrote: NOPE, wrong on all counts.

Believe is not a choice or a tool. You cant choose what to believe in. it just happens

Yes you can, I do it all the time...so who is 'wrong'?

You are. What you are describing is faith not belief.

How would you know? Feel free to clarify your understanding and how that applies to me!