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Is the water live?
02 Feb 2020 15:45 #349213
by Gisteron
Better to leave questions unanswered than answers unquestioned
Replied by Gisteron on topic Is the water live?
It sounds like what you are saying, Erinis, is that spirituality can happily be rooted in bad reasoning or in none at all. By no means am I one to stand up and defend the idea of spirituality in general, but still I think we can do better than say that fallacious arguments are par for the course in it. That something had to create us is not felt or intuitive, unless one is brought up to feel and intuit it. And if an argument form ignorance (i.e. "just because you can't disprove it doesn't mean its nonsense" type of stuff) is what it takes to maintain a form of spirituality, then, to my ears, that's more of a condemnation of that form of spirituality, than it is of the intellect that dares abstain from it.
Better to leave questions unanswered than answers unquestioned
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02 Feb 2020 18:38 #349222
by Ambert The Traveller
Replied by Ambert The Traveller on topic Is the water live?
Water makes up a significant fraction of the human body, both by weight and by volume. By weight, the average human adult male is approximately 60% water, and the average adult female is approximately 55% water. The body water constitutes as much as 93% of the body weight of a newborn infant.
Most of animal body water is contained in various body fluids. These include intracellular fluid; extracellular fluid; plasma; interstitial fluid; and transcellular fluid. Water is also contained inside organs, in gastrointestinal, cerebrospinal, peritoneal, and ocular fluids.
(All the above from Wikipedia)
Allright, let's try some logic:
Would you say, you are alive? And does this include your body? Is your body alive? Wouldn't this being alive of your body then have to include the water that is a significant part of it?
Or let's assume the contrary and say water is dead. A baby would then be 93 % dead. Males 60% dead, females 55 % dead. Hm, probably the bones, too, the brain, all of it. Dead matter. No life to be found anywhere, according to this kind of materialist thinking?
I am afraid it not as simple as just applying some simple logics and deductions from arbitrary definitions.
Without water, no life as we know it can survive. Water gives life to basically everything we consider alive. Astronomers look for water on planets when they are looking for life. Surely, the occurence of life and the occurence of water correlate significantly.
----
"Who are they?"
"The Guardians of the Whills. Protectors of the Temple of the Kyber. But there's nothing left to protect, so now they're just causing trouble for everybody."
―Jyn Erso and Cassian Jeron Andor
Most of animal body water is contained in various body fluids. These include intracellular fluid; extracellular fluid; plasma; interstitial fluid; and transcellular fluid. Water is also contained inside organs, in gastrointestinal, cerebrospinal, peritoneal, and ocular fluids.
(All the above from Wikipedia)
Allright, let's try some logic:
Would you say, you are alive? And does this include your body? Is your body alive? Wouldn't this being alive of your body then have to include the water that is a significant part of it?
Or let's assume the contrary and say water is dead. A baby would then be 93 % dead. Males 60% dead, females 55 % dead. Hm, probably the bones, too, the brain, all of it. Dead matter. No life to be found anywhere, according to this kind of materialist thinking?
I am afraid it not as simple as just applying some simple logics and deductions from arbitrary definitions.
Without water, no life as we know it can survive. Water gives life to basically everything we consider alive. Astronomers look for water on planets when they are looking for life. Surely, the occurence of life and the occurence of water correlate significantly.
----
"Who are they?"
"The Guardians of the Whills. Protectors of the Temple of the Kyber. But there's nothing left to protect, so now they're just causing trouble for everybody."
―Jyn Erso and Cassian Jeron Andor
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02 Feb 2020 19:14 - 02 Feb 2020 19:27 #349223
by OB1Shinobi
People are complicated.
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic Is the water live?
Here is an interesting article on the topic.
https://www.nasa.gov/vision/universe/starsgalaxies/life's_working_definition.html
Life's Working Definition: Does It Work?
By: Astrobiology Magazine staff
Is it alive?
How to define "life" is a sweeping question that affects whole branches of biology, biochemistry, genetics, and ultimately the search for life elsewhere in the universe.
Comparing the semantic task to the ancient Hindu story of identifying an elephant by having each of six blind men touch only the tail, the trunk, or the leg, what answer a biologist might give can differ dramatically from the answer given by a theoretical physicist.
However, some initial agreement is possible. Living things tend to be complex and highly organized. They have the ability to take in energy from the environment and transform it for growth and reproduction. Organisms tend toward homeostasis: an equilibrium of parameters that define their internal environment. Living creatures respond, and their stimulation fosters a reaction-like motion, recoil, and in advanced forms, learning. Life is reproductive, as some kind of copying is needed for evolution to take hold through a population's mutation and natural selection. To grow and develop, living creatures need foremost to be consumers, since growth includes changing biomass, creating new individuals, and the shedding of waste.
To qualify as a living thing, a creature must meet some variation for all these criteria. For example, a crystal can grow, reach equilibrium, and even move in response to stimuli, but lacks what commonly would be thought of as a biological nervous system.
While a "bright line" definition is needed, the borderline cases give life's definition a distinctly gray and fuzzy quality. In hopes of restricting the working definition at least terrestrially, all known organisms seem to share a carbon-based chemistry, depend on water, and leave behind fossils with carbon or sulfur isotopes that point to present or past metabolism.
If these tendencies make for a rich set of characteristics, they have been criticized as ignoring the history of life itself. Terrestrially, life is classified among four biological families: archaea, bacteria, eukaryotes, and viruses. Archaea are the recently defined branch that often survives in extreme environments as single cells, and they share traits with both bacteria and eukaryotes. Bacteria, often referred to as prokaryotes, generally lack chlorophyll (except for cyanobacteria) and a cell nucleus, and they ferment and respire to produce energy. The eukaryotes include all organisms whose cells have a nucleus - so humans and all other animals are eukaryotes, as are plants, protists, and fungi. The final grouping includes the viruses, which don't have cells at all, but fragments of DNA and RNA that parasitically reproduce when they infect a compatible host cell. These classifications clarify the grand puzzle of existing life, but do little to provide a final definition.
Defining life takes on a more bewitching character when extended beyond the Earth's biosphere. The recent addition of extremophiles (archaea) to the tree of life underscores the notion that life is defined by what we know, what we have seen before, and often what we have succeeded in domesticating to a laboratory petri dish.
Astrobiology Magazine sought out expert opinion on this important question from Dr. Carol Cleland, who teaches philosophy at Colorado University in Boulder and is a member of NASA's Astrobiology Institute. While on sabbatical in Madrid, Spain, at the Centro de Astrobiologia (CSIC-INTA), she shared her thoughts on the power of definitions to shape science and philosophy.
Interview with Carol Cleland
Q: What is your opinion of attempts to define of "life?"
In a recent paper in Origins of Life and Evolution of the Biosphere, Christopher Chyba and I argue that it is a mistake to try to define 'life'. Such efforts reflect fundamental misunderstandings about the nature and power of definitions.
Definitions tell us about the meanings of words in our language, as opposed to telling us about the nature of the world. In the case of life, scientists are interested in the nature of life; they are not interested in what the word "life" happens to mean in our language. What we really need to focus on is coming up with an adequately general theory of living systems, as opposed to a definition of "life."
But in order to formulate a general theory of living systems, one needs more than a single example of life. As revealed by its remarkable biochemical and microbiological similarities, life on Earth has a common origin. Despite its amazing morphological diversity, terrestrial life represents only a single case. The key to formulating a general theory of living systems is to explore alternative possibilities for life. I am interested in formulating a strategy for searching for extraterrestrial life that allows one to push the boundaries of our Earth-centric concepts of life.
Q: In the category of what is "alive," would you exclude what you call the "borderline" cases - viruses, self-replicating proteins, or even non-traditional objects that have some information content, reproduce, consume, and die (like computer programs, forest fires, etc.)?
This is a complex question. Language is vague, and all terms face borderline cases. Is an unmarried twelve-year-old boy a "bachelor?" How about an eighteen year old? How many hairs does it take to turn a "bald" man into a man who is "not bald?" 20 or 100 or 1,000 hairs?
The fact that there are border line cases -- that we can't come up with a precise cut-off -- doesn't mean there isn't a difference between a bachelor and a married man, or a bald man and a man who is not bald. These difficulties don't represent profound difficulties; they merely represent the fact that language has a certain degree of flexibility. So I don't think that entities like viruses provide very interesting challenges to definitions of "life."
On the other hand, I don't think that defining "life" is a very useful activity for scientists to pursue since it is not going to tell us what we really want to know, which is "what is life." A scientific theory of life (which is not the same as a definition of life) would be able to answer these questions in a satisfying way.
As an analogy, the medieval alchemists classified many different kinds of substances as water, including nitric acid (which was called "aqua fortis"). They did this because nitric acid exhibited many of the sensible properties of water, and perhaps most importantly, it was a good solvent. It wasn't until the advent of molecular theory that scientists could understand why nitric acid, which has many of the properties of water, is nonetheless not water. Molecular theory clearly and convincingly explains why this is the case: water is H2O -- two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. Nitric acid has a different molecular composition.
A good theory of life would do the same for the cases that you mention, such as computer programs. Merely defining "life" in such a way that it incorporates one's favorite non-traditional "living" entity does not at all advance this project.
Q: What is your favored theory for how life could have arisen on Earth -clay crystals, RNA world, membranes, or some other option?
It seems to me that all theories of the origin of life face two major hurdles. The biggest one is explaining the origin of the complex cooperative schema worked out between proteins and nucleic acids -- the controlled production of self-replicating catalytic systems of biomolecules. All of the popular accounts of the origin of life strike me as side stepping this issue. Instead, they focus on the other hurdle: producing amino acids and nucleotides, and getting them to polymerize into proteins and nucleic acids (typically, RNA). But it seems to me that none of them have provided us with a very satisfying story about how this happened.
All the scenarios that have been proposed for producing RNA under plausible natural conditions lack experimental demonstration, and this includes the RNA world, clay crystals, and vesicle accounts. No one has been able to synthesize RNA without the help of protein catalysts or nucleic acid templates, and on top of this problem, there is the fragility of the RNA molecule to contend with.
But I still think that the more serious problem is the next stage of the process, the coordinating of proteins and RNA through a genetic code into a self-replicating catalytic system of molecules. The probability of this happening by chance (given a random mixture of proteins and RNA) seems astronomically low. Yet most researchers seem to assume that if they can make sense of the independent production of proteins and RNA under natural primordial conditions, the coordination will somehow take care of itself.
I suppose that if I had to pick a favorite theory, it would be Freeman Dyson's double origin theory, which postulates an initial protein world that eventually produced an RNA world as a by-product of an increasingly sophisticated metabolism. The RNA world, which starts out as an obligatory parasite of the protein world, eventually produces the cooperative schema, and hence life as we know it today. I like the fact that this account attempts to deal with the origin of the cooperative schema.
Q: Do you think there could have been multiple origins of life, or that life could have come to Earth from somewhere else?
Life arising more than once from nonliving materials could occur elsewhere than Earth, but it could also have occurred on Earth. It is possible that extraterrestrial life exists and that all life nonetheless has a common ancestor. Scientists now believe that microbes can survive interplanetary journeys ensconced in meteors produced by asteroid impacts on planetary bodies containing life. In other words, we could all be the descendants of Martians -- or Martians, if they happen to exist, could share a common ancestor with us! In short, the mere discovery of extraterrestrial life doesn't guarantee that life had more than one origin.
Q: As one of the great mysteries and challenges in science, do you think we can determine the origin of life through experimentation?
I hope so! But until we have an adequate theory of life to drive the formulation of the right experiments, it will be difficult to tell. I suppose it is always possible that life is not a natural category, and thus no universal theory of life can be formulated. But I doubt it.
It is also possible that life on Earth is the product of a very complex historical process that involves too many contingencies to be readily accessible to definitive experimental investigations. An adequately general theory of life would make this clear, however. Besides, historical research is quite capable of obtaining empirical evidence that can resolve historical questions of this sort-evidence that is just as convincing as that provided by classical experimental research! So even if we can't produce life in the lab from nonliving materials, it doesn't follow that we will never know how life originated on Earth.
What's Next?
The European Space Agency will launch a Mars mission in early summer 2003. Current plans are for its lander, Beagle 2, to perform biological experiments designed to search for evidence of life on Mars. As an example of how the definition of life can directly shape exploratory science, the scientific payload on Beagle 2 will investigate the common features thought to indicate life. For instance, Beagle 2 will look for the presence of water, the existence of carbonate minerals, the occurrence of organic residues, and any isotopic fractionation between organic and inorganic phases. Each of these will provide clues to the likelihood of life on Mars when matched against the prevailing environmental conditions, such as temperature, pressure, wind speed, UV flux, oxidation potential, and dust environment.
Abstract from Cleland, Chyba (2002): "There is no broadly accepted definition of 'life.' Suggested definitions face problems, often in the form of robust counter-examples. Here we use insights from philosophical investigations into language to argue that defining 'life' currently poses a dilemma analogous to that faced by those hoping to define 'water' before the existence of molecular theory. In the absence of an analogous theory of the nature of living systems, interminable controversy over the definition of life is inescapable."
https://www.nasa.gov/vision/universe/starsgalaxies/life's_working_definition.html
Warning: Spoiler!
Life's Working Definition: Does It Work?
By: Astrobiology Magazine staff
Is it alive?
How to define "life" is a sweeping question that affects whole branches of biology, biochemistry, genetics, and ultimately the search for life elsewhere in the universe.
Comparing the semantic task to the ancient Hindu story of identifying an elephant by having each of six blind men touch only the tail, the trunk, or the leg, what answer a biologist might give can differ dramatically from the answer given by a theoretical physicist.
However, some initial agreement is possible. Living things tend to be complex and highly organized. They have the ability to take in energy from the environment and transform it for growth and reproduction. Organisms tend toward homeostasis: an equilibrium of parameters that define their internal environment. Living creatures respond, and their stimulation fosters a reaction-like motion, recoil, and in advanced forms, learning. Life is reproductive, as some kind of copying is needed for evolution to take hold through a population's mutation and natural selection. To grow and develop, living creatures need foremost to be consumers, since growth includes changing biomass, creating new individuals, and the shedding of waste.
To qualify as a living thing, a creature must meet some variation for all these criteria. For example, a crystal can grow, reach equilibrium, and even move in response to stimuli, but lacks what commonly would be thought of as a biological nervous system.
While a "bright line" definition is needed, the borderline cases give life's definition a distinctly gray and fuzzy quality. In hopes of restricting the working definition at least terrestrially, all known organisms seem to share a carbon-based chemistry, depend on water, and leave behind fossils with carbon or sulfur isotopes that point to present or past metabolism.
If these tendencies make for a rich set of characteristics, they have been criticized as ignoring the history of life itself. Terrestrially, life is classified among four biological families: archaea, bacteria, eukaryotes, and viruses. Archaea are the recently defined branch that often survives in extreme environments as single cells, and they share traits with both bacteria and eukaryotes. Bacteria, often referred to as prokaryotes, generally lack chlorophyll (except for cyanobacteria) and a cell nucleus, and they ferment and respire to produce energy. The eukaryotes include all organisms whose cells have a nucleus - so humans and all other animals are eukaryotes, as are plants, protists, and fungi. The final grouping includes the viruses, which don't have cells at all, but fragments of DNA and RNA that parasitically reproduce when they infect a compatible host cell. These classifications clarify the grand puzzle of existing life, but do little to provide a final definition.
Defining life takes on a more bewitching character when extended beyond the Earth's biosphere. The recent addition of extremophiles (archaea) to the tree of life underscores the notion that life is defined by what we know, what we have seen before, and often what we have succeeded in domesticating to a laboratory petri dish.
Astrobiology Magazine sought out expert opinion on this important question from Dr. Carol Cleland, who teaches philosophy at Colorado University in Boulder and is a member of NASA's Astrobiology Institute. While on sabbatical in Madrid, Spain, at the Centro de Astrobiologia (CSIC-INTA), she shared her thoughts on the power of definitions to shape science and philosophy.
Interview with Carol Cleland
Q: What is your opinion of attempts to define of "life?"
In a recent paper in Origins of Life and Evolution of the Biosphere, Christopher Chyba and I argue that it is a mistake to try to define 'life'. Such efforts reflect fundamental misunderstandings about the nature and power of definitions.
Definitions tell us about the meanings of words in our language, as opposed to telling us about the nature of the world. In the case of life, scientists are interested in the nature of life; they are not interested in what the word "life" happens to mean in our language. What we really need to focus on is coming up with an adequately general theory of living systems, as opposed to a definition of "life."
But in order to formulate a general theory of living systems, one needs more than a single example of life. As revealed by its remarkable biochemical and microbiological similarities, life on Earth has a common origin. Despite its amazing morphological diversity, terrestrial life represents only a single case. The key to formulating a general theory of living systems is to explore alternative possibilities for life. I am interested in formulating a strategy for searching for extraterrestrial life that allows one to push the boundaries of our Earth-centric concepts of life.
Q: In the category of what is "alive," would you exclude what you call the "borderline" cases - viruses, self-replicating proteins, or even non-traditional objects that have some information content, reproduce, consume, and die (like computer programs, forest fires, etc.)?
This is a complex question. Language is vague, and all terms face borderline cases. Is an unmarried twelve-year-old boy a "bachelor?" How about an eighteen year old? How many hairs does it take to turn a "bald" man into a man who is "not bald?" 20 or 100 or 1,000 hairs?
The fact that there are border line cases -- that we can't come up with a precise cut-off -- doesn't mean there isn't a difference between a bachelor and a married man, or a bald man and a man who is not bald. These difficulties don't represent profound difficulties; they merely represent the fact that language has a certain degree of flexibility. So I don't think that entities like viruses provide very interesting challenges to definitions of "life."
On the other hand, I don't think that defining "life" is a very useful activity for scientists to pursue since it is not going to tell us what we really want to know, which is "what is life." A scientific theory of life (which is not the same as a definition of life) would be able to answer these questions in a satisfying way.
As an analogy, the medieval alchemists classified many different kinds of substances as water, including nitric acid (which was called "aqua fortis"). They did this because nitric acid exhibited many of the sensible properties of water, and perhaps most importantly, it was a good solvent. It wasn't until the advent of molecular theory that scientists could understand why nitric acid, which has many of the properties of water, is nonetheless not water. Molecular theory clearly and convincingly explains why this is the case: water is H2O -- two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. Nitric acid has a different molecular composition.
A good theory of life would do the same for the cases that you mention, such as computer programs. Merely defining "life" in such a way that it incorporates one's favorite non-traditional "living" entity does not at all advance this project.
Q: What is your favored theory for how life could have arisen on Earth -clay crystals, RNA world, membranes, or some other option?
It seems to me that all theories of the origin of life face two major hurdles. The biggest one is explaining the origin of the complex cooperative schema worked out between proteins and nucleic acids -- the controlled production of self-replicating catalytic systems of biomolecules. All of the popular accounts of the origin of life strike me as side stepping this issue. Instead, they focus on the other hurdle: producing amino acids and nucleotides, and getting them to polymerize into proteins and nucleic acids (typically, RNA). But it seems to me that none of them have provided us with a very satisfying story about how this happened.
All the scenarios that have been proposed for producing RNA under plausible natural conditions lack experimental demonstration, and this includes the RNA world, clay crystals, and vesicle accounts. No one has been able to synthesize RNA without the help of protein catalysts or nucleic acid templates, and on top of this problem, there is the fragility of the RNA molecule to contend with.
But I still think that the more serious problem is the next stage of the process, the coordinating of proteins and RNA through a genetic code into a self-replicating catalytic system of molecules. The probability of this happening by chance (given a random mixture of proteins and RNA) seems astronomically low. Yet most researchers seem to assume that if they can make sense of the independent production of proteins and RNA under natural primordial conditions, the coordination will somehow take care of itself.
I suppose that if I had to pick a favorite theory, it would be Freeman Dyson's double origin theory, which postulates an initial protein world that eventually produced an RNA world as a by-product of an increasingly sophisticated metabolism. The RNA world, which starts out as an obligatory parasite of the protein world, eventually produces the cooperative schema, and hence life as we know it today. I like the fact that this account attempts to deal with the origin of the cooperative schema.
Q: Do you think there could have been multiple origins of life, or that life could have come to Earth from somewhere else?
Life arising more than once from nonliving materials could occur elsewhere than Earth, but it could also have occurred on Earth. It is possible that extraterrestrial life exists and that all life nonetheless has a common ancestor. Scientists now believe that microbes can survive interplanetary journeys ensconced in meteors produced by asteroid impacts on planetary bodies containing life. In other words, we could all be the descendants of Martians -- or Martians, if they happen to exist, could share a common ancestor with us! In short, the mere discovery of extraterrestrial life doesn't guarantee that life had more than one origin.
Q: As one of the great mysteries and challenges in science, do you think we can determine the origin of life through experimentation?
I hope so! But until we have an adequate theory of life to drive the formulation of the right experiments, it will be difficult to tell. I suppose it is always possible that life is not a natural category, and thus no universal theory of life can be formulated. But I doubt it.
It is also possible that life on Earth is the product of a very complex historical process that involves too many contingencies to be readily accessible to definitive experimental investigations. An adequately general theory of life would make this clear, however. Besides, historical research is quite capable of obtaining empirical evidence that can resolve historical questions of this sort-evidence that is just as convincing as that provided by classical experimental research! So even if we can't produce life in the lab from nonliving materials, it doesn't follow that we will never know how life originated on Earth.
What's Next?
The European Space Agency will launch a Mars mission in early summer 2003. Current plans are for its lander, Beagle 2, to perform biological experiments designed to search for evidence of life on Mars. As an example of how the definition of life can directly shape exploratory science, the scientific payload on Beagle 2 will investigate the common features thought to indicate life. For instance, Beagle 2 will look for the presence of water, the existence of carbonate minerals, the occurrence of organic residues, and any isotopic fractionation between organic and inorganic phases. Each of these will provide clues to the likelihood of life on Mars when matched against the prevailing environmental conditions, such as temperature, pressure, wind speed, UV flux, oxidation potential, and dust environment.
Abstract from Cleland, Chyba (2002): "There is no broadly accepted definition of 'life.' Suggested definitions face problems, often in the form of robust counter-examples. Here we use insights from philosophical investigations into language to argue that defining 'life' currently poses a dilemma analogous to that faced by those hoping to define 'water' before the existence of molecular theory. In the absence of an analogous theory of the nature of living systems, interminable controversy over the definition of life is inescapable."
People are complicated.
Last edit: 02 Feb 2020 19:27 by OB1Shinobi.
The topic has been locked.
02 Feb 2020 19:20 #349224
by Br. John
Founder of The Order
Replied by Br. John on topic Is the water live?
Why does that make water alive? Is sodium alive? You cannot live without it. Oxygen? Hydrogen? Can't have water without them combined as H20
Essential Elements for Life https://chem.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/General_Chemistry/Book%3A_Chemistry_(Averill_and_Eldredge)/01%3A_Introduction_to_Chemistry/1.8%3A_Essential_Elements_for_Life
Essential Elements for Life https://chem.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/General_Chemistry/Book%3A_Chemistry_(Averill_and_Eldredge)/01%3A_Introduction_to_Chemistry/1.8%3A_Essential_Elements_for_Life
Founder of The Order
The topic has been locked.
02 Feb 2020 19:35 - 02 Feb 2020 19:48 #349225
by
It´s like conspiracy theory, which has the same concept. Question is, do you believe that God exists because society said so? It´s not such long time
when everyone thoughts that the Earth is flat, also nonsense and look how everybody believed that.
I don´t say that the existence of God is impossible, I am just trying to show you that everything simply cannot be understood just by head.
When you put your hand into fire (as a child who doesn´t have knowledge about fire), the first reaction of body is transfer information
into brain though nerves which contains cells (made from water) in addition the water same as blood is conductive.
As Ambert said, your body without water, and everybody could imagine what would happened with body if this information from nerves wouldn´t
be transmitted into brain. In this case is whole logic useless.[/b]
Qui-gon Jinn " Concentrate on the moment. Feel, don´t think. Use your instincts"
Replied by on topic Is the water live?
Yes sure, just because I can´t disapprove the existence of God it doesn´t mean its nonsense, but also you can´t prove it.Gisteron wrote:That something had to create us is not felt or intuitive, unless one is brought up to feel and intuit it. And if an argument form ignorance (i.e. "just because you can't disprove it doesn't mean its nonsense" type of stuff)
It´s like conspiracy theory, which has the same concept. Question is, do you believe that God exists because society said so? It´s not such long time
when everyone thoughts that the Earth is flat, also nonsense and look how everybody believed that.
I don´t say that the existence of God is impossible, I am just trying to show you that everything simply cannot be understood just by head.
When you put your hand into fire (as a child who doesn´t have knowledge about fire), the first reaction of body is transfer information
into brain though nerves which contains cells (made from water) in addition the water same as blood is conductive.
As Ambert said, your body without water, and everybody could imagine what would happened with body if this information from nerves wouldn´t
be transmitted into brain. In this case is whole logic useless.[/b]
Qui-gon Jinn " Concentrate on the moment. Feel, don´t think. Use your instincts"
Last edit: 02 Feb 2020 19:48 by .
The topic has been locked.
02 Feb 2020 20:55 - 02 Feb 2020 20:57 #349234
by
This struck me as one of the most contradictory statements ever made!. Lol jedi here love their knowledge right? But then all over the doctrine here there are soft areas that skim over this tenet and ignore the actual fact that we dont really know anything about the force or consciousness or where the universe even came from. Every religion except this jediism has clear and exact descriptions of the nature of reality, how it got here, the agencies involved and the process done to make it. But the one religion that puts knowledge highest does none of this. Instead the doctrine is a few lines defined by a single person and put up as something we are all supposed to agree to. And when we disagree on those things its said well that's ok individual belief is great and not all has to be followed. But present something, anything outside of the realm of science and look out!!! You in for the fight of your life!!. Know why? Because the actual doctrine here doesnt really tell us anything at all. It's not a basis for a religion that people can get behind at all! There is nothing there but a bit of ghost turd fluff and so we are all left to try and define these things on our own instead of relying in a clear and concise written doctrine that we can start using as a base of common discussion. Instead we all just start wherever we are and let the wars rage!
Replied by on topic Is the water live?
Manu wrote: Ignorance, yet Knowledge. Though I can appreciate the ineffable aspect of "the Force"
This struck me as one of the most contradictory statements ever made!. Lol jedi here love their knowledge right? But then all over the doctrine here there are soft areas that skim over this tenet and ignore the actual fact that we dont really know anything about the force or consciousness or where the universe even came from. Every religion except this jediism has clear and exact descriptions of the nature of reality, how it got here, the agencies involved and the process done to make it. But the one religion that puts knowledge highest does none of this. Instead the doctrine is a few lines defined by a single person and put up as something we are all supposed to agree to. And when we disagree on those things its said well that's ok individual belief is great and not all has to be followed. But present something, anything outside of the realm of science and look out!!! You in for the fight of your life!!. Know why? Because the actual doctrine here doesnt really tell us anything at all. It's not a basis for a religion that people can get behind at all! There is nothing there but a bit of ghost turd fluff and so we are all left to try and define these things on our own instead of relying in a clear and concise written doctrine that we can start using as a base of common discussion. Instead we all just start wherever we are and let the wars rage!
Last edit: 02 Feb 2020 20:57 by .
The topic has been locked.
02 Feb 2020 21:02 - 02 Feb 2020 21:04 #349235
by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic Is the water live?
Jediism doesn't prescribe a fairytale to help you sleep at night.... it invites you to build a subjective mindset to connect to objective reality given the best knowledge available at one's time. Not being like other religions is sorta the point... its better.
But back on topic, if we're just talking subjective reality and path, then yea water signifies a 'raft' of paradigms for me as the first conceptual domain in my top level training toolkit... which I see Wu Xing as representing in my take on Daoism. But water itself is just symbolic despite its associated attributes. I guess there is an argument for it to be considered sacred almost in the sense its one of the things required for survival, and as such can take special place in some embued perception of an engineered subjective reality (ie view).... but I wouldn't want to muddy that by placing expectations too much, things like that at that level need to be born of union between subconscious and consciousness, not just imagined and forced.
But back on topic, if we're just talking subjective reality and path, then yea water signifies a 'raft' of paradigms for me as the first conceptual domain in my top level training toolkit... which I see Wu Xing as representing in my take on Daoism. But water itself is just symbolic despite its associated attributes. I guess there is an argument for it to be considered sacred almost in the sense its one of the things required for survival, and as such can take special place in some embued perception of an engineered subjective reality (ie view).... but I wouldn't want to muddy that by placing expectations too much, things like that at that level need to be born of union between subconscious and consciousness, not just imagined and forced.
Last edit: 02 Feb 2020 21:04 by Adder.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Amaya, OB1Shinobi
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02 Feb 2020 21:02 #349236
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Replied by on topic Is the water live?
It just floors me that jedi would rather stay ignorant rather than honestly explore these things.
The force is ineffable, cant be known? That is one bold conclusion based in ignorance.
What if it's actually not? But present even the slightest possibility that we might know something about it and get a this knee jerk spinnin that "well we dont know, but its Definately not that!" Its the embracing of ignorance over knowledge.
The force is ineffable, cant be known? That is one bold conclusion based in ignorance.
What if it's actually not? But present even the slightest possibility that we might know something about it and get a this knee jerk spinnin that "well we dont know, but its Definately not that!" Its the embracing of ignorance over knowledge.
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02 Feb 2020 21:05 #349237
by OB1Shinobi
Didnt you once try to make a rational case in defense of belief in santa clause?
People are complicated.
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic Is the water live?
Fyxe wrote: Its the embracing of ignorance over knowledge.
Didnt you once try to make a rational case in defense of belief in santa clause?
People are complicated.
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02 Feb 2020 21:05 #349238
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Replied by on topic Is the water live?
How do you know it's a fairy tale? Why would you even say that? Can you prove your claim that it's a fairy tale? Why would you even write a fairy tale about it? Why not write what is believed about it? What is true for jedi?
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