Psychometry

Yabuturtle wrote: Actually there is a lot of evidence for it. You have to know where to look, but there are many rituals and spiritual power that can affect the world and others. It isn't like in the movies. It's actually much more subtle. Anyone who has practiced magic or any kind of spiritual power knows what I'm talking about

Actually actually no, there is none. At least none that is ever being presented. I mean you say this exact same line almost every time it comes up, sometimes even multiple times. Every part of it, about rituals, and about how it's "not like in the movies", as if that's a description of what you are talking about, and then finishing with everyone who already believes it knows what you are talking about, but of course you wouldn't enlighten any of those of us who don't. Imagine if the science you speak so lovingly about before the "but" part of your argument operated like this: "Oh, there is plenty evidence of plate tectonics, it's just not like what you see in a coke glass and everyone who studied geology knows what I'm talking about. And why are those who would question what I'm talking about even be around to talk about this anyway? Clearly, this line of conversation is not for them, but for believers only."

There are many things we do not know about this world. Even with all of our science, it cannot answer everything.

Agreed. There are also plenty things we do know about this world. We cannot answer everything with all of our science, but "not everything" is still plenty more than the "nothing at all" we can answer by appeals to magic.

There ARE ways to develop it. Why do you think people have practiced this art for thousands of years? For fun?

Some would do it for fun, yes. Some do it for the money they can scam out of others, too. Most, I would hope, though, are not so cynical and actually believe this nonsense. That doesn't mean they are right about it, but then you don't have to be correct to be dedicated. All it takes is conviction, and people get convinced of all sorts of claims, irrespective of their accuracy or validity.
Oh, and noone has practiced any kind of magic for thousands of years. Most people barely live as long as a century, and that's in the modern day where reproduction on average occurs about a decade later than it used to, resources are abundant, and medicine actually knows what it's doing some of the time. And of course even those accumulated centuries still aren't quite enough to develop any magical powers that can be demonstrated in environments that are well controlled against trickery, apparently. Weird, innit?

That wouldn't make any sense. Magic or spiritual power isn't as practiced as it used to be and the ones that know a lot of it are kind of hidden, either because their power would make others afraid of them or by not telling people it gives them an advantage over others. If you knew telekinesis, an art not practiced very much and if you wanted an advantage over people, would you start talking about it?

Maybe. Maybe not. Are you saying that in all of those thousands of years you mentioned earlier, there wasn't one person who had genuinely developed magical powers and wasn't either so arrogant as to underestimate their peers' courage, or so cynical as to withhold it for their own personal gain? I suppose that could be so, but then we'd be stuck with no evidence. Yet in the beginning of this post you said there was plenty. So what is it, are you claiming there is, or are you making excuses as to why there isn't? Make up your mind.

Some also may keep it a secret since if such power is used irresponsibly, it would be bad. Lunatics with such power can cause devastating consequences.

Yes, another indication that noone actually ever developed such powers. There have been sick and evil people in pretty much every profession and of any sophistication. Yet noone who developed magical powers was afflicted like that, in all those thousands of years? I doubt it. If anything, a more plausible explanation is that obtaining such powers is either impossible to the evil, or it cures the evil right out of those who acquire the power. Otherwise we'd expect at least one lunatic at least one time display anything of the sort, and are stuck trying to explain why nothing of the sort ever happened.

Psychic abilities, magic, psionics, the force, whatever you may wish to call it. It's very real and true.

Maybe. Do you happen to have anything that would indicate it to be so, rather than excuses why you don't?

Some have doubts and I get that very much. Because I had those same doubts until I discovered it was real myself. Through association with those who practiced such arts, developing techniques of my own, communing with nature ect. I now know it is real for certain.

Well, since you are back to your preaching routine, allow me to indulge in mine. If you can't show it, then you don't know it. The amount of confidence you have changes nothing about that.

Sure there are those who claim such abilities and do not have it. But that does not mean the art doesn't exist. Like those fake psychics you've seen on tv, People get so used to seeing people claim abilities and don't have it and end up overlooking the people who actually ARE psychic and have abilities.

Yea, well, the real ones, should there be any, are welcome to come forth and demonstrate that their powers exist. They don't have to disclose how to acquire them if that's too dangerous or too valuable of a secret, but until they can demonstrate that there is even a "there" there, we are stuck with only fakes doing it and while I understand the frustration those who think they know non-fakes or are such themselves, it is not the skeptic's fault that they only ever get to deal with fakes, nor their responsibility to seek out the real ones. The burden of proof rests with those making the claim, not with those doubting it.

I also found it quite interesting that despite those who focus on science and not on the mystical and idolize many scientists, often forget there WERE scientists that practiced the occult, mysticism or at least had an interest in it. Da Vinci, Newton, George Washington Carver ect. And I know people were more religious back then but there were atheists too even in ancient times.

Yes, and guess which of their hobbies actually produced useful results? I'll give you a hint, it's the one to do with testing, self-awareness and self-criticism. Isaac Newton co-developed what we now remember as calculus, set the foundation for mechanics, optics and hydrodynamics. Pretty much all of engineering now exploits natural relations first described by Newton. Then he started trying to turn lead into gold and all his useful contributions ceased while nothing else came of it. Blaise Pascal was instrumental to modern day probability theory, linear and abstract algebra, and of course thermodynamics. Then he found Jesus in his life and discontinued his study of the world around him in favour of producing cheap and transparently dishonest religious sophistry instead.
If the occult or mystical studies of some of the great pioneers of science had spawned useful contributions to our understanding of the world, or even our place in it, maybe you'd have a point. As it stands, though, most of the time it only ever got in the way of that, more mildly so at the best of times.

You do not have to take anyone's word for it really. It is best for you to find this knowledge for yourself and I encourage everyone to. Believe me, THAT is where you will find your proof. I felt the same way and did not believe in any of it but now I know it exists.Some things cannot be shown in a microscope or in front of your eyes which can deceive you. Looking through different eyes and experiencing it is a way to find the proof that you seek.

And next time I go to a clothier they'll just say that my clothes will be best if I craft them from my own cloth, woven from my own hair. Heck, imagine your Jedi master not giving you any assignments but telling you that you are better off finding some yourself. No. Sir. It is not my job to "find my proof" for your claims. If you have nothing to back up your claims, that's fine. You say there is plenty, but you also make plenty excuses why there shouldn't be any... What ever. You are not obligated to believe things with good reasons or to provide good reasons to anyone who questions your claims. Likewise, noone is obligated to take your claims seriously, or respect your beliefs (not the same as respecting you, mind you), much less if they aren't backed by anything whatsoever.

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote:
It’s called personal responsibility and self search . Seek and you will find .

No it's actually called wishful thinking and delusional idea. Yes I can actually prove everything I believe, knight. I don't believe things I cant back up. Meaning I dont rely on faith, which is not a reliable means to discern truth.

Ok - some are not like you - can u live in a world that’s - not like you exactly ? That’s the million dolla’ question.
Can we live in a world where as an individual - we are exactly that ? Can u live and function in a world where no one sees like you ? These are basic human questions we all have to ask ourselfs and find out for ourselfs.

No, no actually I cannot. Not when that means allowing people to indulge in dangerous delusions like what has has been entertained here. It is my charge as a ranger to defend others from such delusions and that includes even those you entertain Carlos.

Gisteron wrote:

Yabuturtle wrote: Actually there is a lot of evidence for it. You have to know where to look, but there are many rituals and spiritual power that can affect the world and others. It isn't like in the movies. It's actually much more subtle. Anyone who has practiced magic or any kind of spiritual power knows what I'm talking about

Actually actually no, there is none. At least none that is ever being presented. I mean you say this exact same line almost every time it comes up, sometimes even multiple times. Every part of it, about rituals, and about how it's "not like in the movies", as if that's a description of what you are talking about, and then finishing with everyone who already believes it knows what you are talking about, but of course you wouldn't enlighten any of those of us who don't. Imagine if the science you speak so lovingly about before the "but" part of your argument operated like this: "Oh, there is plenty evidence of plate tectonics, it's just not like what you see in a coke glass and everyone who studied geology knows what I'm talking about. And why are those who would question what I'm talking about even be around to talk about this anyway? Clearly, this line of conversation is not for them, but for believers only."

There are many things we do not know about this world. Even with all of our science, it cannot answer everything.

Agreed. There are also plenty things we do know about this world. We cannot answer everything with all of our science, but "not everything" is still plenty more than the "nothing at all" we can answer by appeals to magic.

There ARE ways to develop it. Why do you think people have practiced this art for thousands of years? For fun?

Some would do it for fun, yes. Some do it for the money they can scam out of others, too. Most, I would hope, though, are not so cynical and actually believe this nonsense. That doesn't mean they are right about it, but then you don't have to be correct to be dedicated. All it takes is conviction, and people get convinced of all sorts of claims, irrespective of their accuracy or validity.
Oh, and noone has practiced any kind of magic for thousands of years. Most people barely live as long as a century, and that's in the modern day where reproduction on average occurs about a decade later than it used to, resources are abundant, and medicine actually knows what it's doing some of the time. And of course even those accumulated centuries still aren't quite enough to develop any magical powers that can be demonstrated in environments that are well controlled against trickery, apparently. Weird, innit?

That wouldn't make any sense. Magic or spiritual power isn't as practiced as it used to be and the ones that know a lot of it are kind of hidden, either because their power would make others afraid of them or by not telling people it gives them an advantage over others. If you knew telekinesis, an art not practiced very much and if you wanted an advantage over people, would you start talking about it?

Maybe. Maybe not. Are you saying that in all of those thousands of years you mentioned earlier, there wasn't one person who had genuinely developed magical powers and wasn't either so arrogant as to underestimate their peers' courage, or so cynical as to withhold it for their own personal gain? I suppose that could be so, but then we'd be stuck with no evidence. Yet in the beginning of this post you said there was plenty. So what is it, are you claiming there is, or are you making excuses as to why there isn't? Make up your mind.

Some also may keep it a secret since if such power is used irresponsibly, it would be bad. Lunatics with such power can cause devastating consequences.

Yes, another indication that noone actually ever developed such powers. There have been sick and evil people in pretty much every profession and of any sophistication. Yet noone who developed magical powers was afflicted like that, in all those thousands of years? I doubt it. If anything, a more plausible explanation is that obtaining such powers is either impossible to the evil, or it cures the evil right out of those who acquire the power. Otherwise we'd expect at least one lunatic at least one time display anything of the sort, and are stuck trying to explain why nothing of the sort ever happened.

Psychic abilities, magic, psionics, the force, whatever you may wish to call it. It's very real and true.

Maybe. Do you happen to have anything that would indicate it to be so, rather than excuses why you don't?

Some have doubts and I get that very much. Because I had those same doubts until I discovered it was real myself. Through association with those who practiced such arts, developing techniques of my own, communing with nature ect. I now know it is real for certain.

Well, since you are back to your preaching routine, allow me to indulge in mine. If you can't show it, then you don't know it. The amount of confidence you have changes nothing about that.

Sure there are those who claim such abilities and do not have it. But that does not mean the art doesn't exist. Like those fake psychics you've seen on tv, People get so used to seeing people claim abilities and don't have it and end up overlooking the people who actually ARE psychic and have abilities.

Yea, well, the real ones, should there be any, are welcome to come forth and demonstrate that their powers exist. They don't have to disclose how to acquire them if that's too dangerous or too valuable of a secret, but until they can demonstrate that there is even a "there" there, we are stuck with only fakes doing it and while I understand the frustration those who think they know non-fakes or are such themselves, it is not the skeptic's fault that they only ever get to deal with fakes, nor their responsibility to seek out the real ones. The burden of proof rests with those making the claim, not with those doubting it.

I also found it quite interesting that despite those who focus on science and not on the mystical and idolize many scientists, often forget there WERE scientists that practiced the occult, mysticism or at least had an interest in it. Da Vinci, Newton, George Washington Carver ect. And I know people were more religious back then but there were atheists too even in ancient times.

Yes, and guess which of their hobbies actually produced useful results? I'll give you a hint, it's the one to do with testing, self-awareness and self-criticism. Isaac Newton co-developed what we now remember as calculus, set the foundation for mechanics, optics and hydrodynamics. Pretty much all of engineering now exploits natural relations first described by Newton. Then he started trying to turn lead into gold and all his useful contributions ceased while nothing else came of it. Blaise Pascal was instrumental to modern day probability theory, linear and abstract algebra, and of course thermodynamics. Then he found Jesus in his life and discontinued his study of the world around him in favour of producing cheap and transparently dishonest religious sophistry instead.
If the occult or mystical studies of some of the great pioneers of science had spawned useful contributions to our understanding of the world, or even our place in it, maybe you'd have a point. As it stands, though, most of the time it only ever got in the way of that, more mildly so at the best of times.

You do not have to take anyone's word for it really. It is best for you to find this knowledge for yourself and I encourage everyone to. Believe me, THAT is where you will find your proof. I felt the same way and did not believe in any of it but now I know it exists.Some things cannot be shown in a microscope or in front of your eyes which can deceive you. Looking through different eyes and experiencing it is a way to find the proof that you seek.

And next time I go to a clothier they'll just say that my clothes will be best if I craft them from my own cloth, woven from my own hair. Heck, imagine your Jedi master not giving you any assignments but telling you that you are better off finding some yourself. No. Sir. It is not my job to "find my proof" for your claims. If you have nothing to back up your claims, that's fine. You say there is plenty, but you also make plenty excuses why there shouldn't be any... What ever. You are not obligated to believe things with good reasons or to provide good reasons to anyone who questions your claims. Likewise, noone is obligated to take your claims seriously, or respect your beliefs (not the same as respecting you, mind you), much less if they aren't backed by anything whatsoever.

You know, I'm not really sure if you read any of the stuff people have written but you do act kind of a jerk with these kinds of subjects. If you had read my stuff earlier you would have known (as we have said for the millionth time) that this stuff cannot be proven the way you WANT it to be proven. If you were in front of me I could teach you these things. I myself don't have telekinesis so it really depends on what you're looking for. I do know rituals, I do know certain incantations.

I just told you you need to experience it to find the proof that you seek. If you cannot do that because you are thinking it is more comfortable to believe that such power doesn't exist then be our guest. Who knows why. Either because it makes you feel superior to call them all an old wives tale or it would actually scare you a little bit to know that such power exists.

I'm not the one saying you're a moron for not believing it or trying to put you down because of your belief. There is evidence. Just because YOU don't accept it, doesn't mean it isn't evidence. Psychics do exist and I know this because I have met them, both real and fake. If the proof is not right in front of your face then it cannot and will never ever exist and everyone is a kook for believing in it because you didn't take the time to search the knowledge for yourself like I and others did. Even if I made a video on it, that wouldn't satisfy you because you will say it is photo shopped or something.

As I said, things that cannot be proved CAN be experienced. If I cast a spell that will increase your luck, health ect. or use a crystal to help speed up healing of wounds and do it right in front of you, you will think it is fake because nothing happened. You weren't enveloped with magic sparkling energy so therefore it didn't happen when in reality it DID happen, but it was happening in a more subtle and slower way. That's how most of these forces work. It does not work the way movies portray them. Maybe in some far off galaxy, there is an alien race that can do such things but as it stands, magic, spiritual power does not work like that here, at least with our magic.

If you are hoping to turn me to your side, you are mistaken. You cannot expect to naysay, offer very little reasons and act negative and expect people to turn them to your side and your way of thinking. It didn't work the last few times, why would it work now? I already know this power exists.

Even with experiences such as my relationship with nature or the time when my brother was injured from a cut he got from a rock. Bad enough where he had to go to a doctor. My mother had used a crystal known for healing, prayed and it was able to heal faster. He didn't heal like Wolverine, but he did heal faster than it normally would and even the doctors were surprised and couldn't explain it. Because there ARE things that cannot be explained so easily but it can be experienced.

Look up books of magic, call a psychic or mystic, work with them, and see if they give you a different experience. Take it from me, a guy who didn't believe in this stuff but now I do. That is where you will find the proof that you seek. Nothing more is to be discussed about this and you going on threads naysaying on these things are not going to help. It is not only rude but off topic.

You can find the proof that you seek, let it come to you, it doesn't matter to me really. I have said what needed to be said. Believe it or not. It's up to you.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote:
It’s called personal responsibility and self search . Seek and you will find .

No it's actually called wishful thinking and delusional idea. Yes I can actually prove everything I believe, knight. I don't believe things I cant back up. Meaning I dont rely on faith, which is not a reliable means to discern truth.

Ok - some are not like you - can u live in a world that’s - not like you exactly ? That’s the million dolla’ question.
Can we live in a world where as an individual - we are exactly that ? Can u live and function in a world where no one sees like you ? These are basic human questions we all have to ask ourselfs and find out for ourselfs.

No, no actually I cannot. Not when that means allowing people to indulge in dangerous delusions like what has has been entertained here. It is my charge as a ranger to defend others from such delusions and that includes even those you entertain Carlos.

Ahahahahaha the hubris of this statement. Yet you understand so little...

Now this is directed at your way of thinking. Thinking that you're going to find a lot of material proof for things that happen beyond this material plane is illogical. At best you'll only be able to measure the effects or has on this material world. You won't be able to quantify etheric movement or dissect the elemental forces. You're approaching this entire subject from the wrong perspective..

Also, you're urge to confirm your own bias and not "allowing people to indulge" is misguided to say the least...

Who are you to force your limited way of thinking on others? As if you have the end all of all knowledge.. pfft.. you keep talking as if you have definitive and substantive evidence completely disproving the existence of the Subtle Realms.. even though scientists are now contemplating alternative universes..

Where's your evidence? You're so convinced of your OPINION, where are you're facts? I've tested both astral projection and telekinesis. Tell me how I mistook what I experienced. Show me the evidence.. until then your unfounded and derogatory attitudes should be ignored by any who wish to.. especially those you assault..

See, in the streets, we call what you do "shooting slugs".. insulting the person by insulting the action or the idea.. an indirect shot.. however you perceive it, that's what it is.. it doesn't get by me at all. Your arrogance shows, loud and clear..

Why aren't you a knight again?

1. People will believe whatever it is they will believe. Having some self-ordered directive to "correct" people from those beliefs is one of the most ignorant things one could possibly waste their time on. I would recommend leaving that kind of stuff to the evangelical Christians.

2. Trying to counter someone using the same attitude that you accuse the other person of having is not only futile, but de-gressive in terms of if you ever want them to genuinely consider whatever it is you're trying to tell them.

These are examples of what gives the temple the impression of being a snobby clubhouse of kids who don't know how to maturely discuss things because they sound like they are only here to win a validation game.

Is psychology a science!? Just parts of it perhaps!?
The jedi path for me is more about the relationship between cognition and action, then the rigor of accurately increasing the body of scientific knowledge. Limiting my mind to objective reality would be a huge limitation and a massive bore!!!! There shouldn't be anything wrong with talking about concepts and subjective reality beyond objective reality... unless they are claimed to be part of objective reality and even then concern about it should be done in a supportive way and curious manner, IMO, as proper delusion is the belief in something which otherwise does not exist (as far as can be ascertained). But one does not need belief to work with concepts or explore them, so discussion should be welcomed and encouraged I would think, but with a cautious eye for going too far.

I wanted to ignore it but my passion got the better of me I guess.. I don't mind a debate, even a spirited one. What got me was the blatant bludgeoning going on. Like hitting your project instead of you with a stick.. but a lot of people have sticks. Everybody does really.. there's no reason we can't just draw our thoughts out in the sand..

@Adder:

I've always tried to approach things with a kinda open but skeptic mind. Especially when my family was very religious. I didn't take to "blind faith" very well.. and it's never biblically been described as such. In fact, having a sober mind means to be more objective, clearer in our thinking. So to say faith is "evidence of things unseen" enforces that there was an experience of something real, just unseen.. the faith is in the experience, like gnosis i guess imo lol

Uzima Moto wrote: II've always tried to approach things with a kinda open but skeptic mind. Especially when my family was very religious. I didn't take to "blind faith" very well.. and it's never biblically been described as such. In fact, having a sober mind means to be more objective, clearer in our thinking. So to say faith is "evidence of things unseen" enforces that there was an experience of something real, just unseen.. the faith is in the experience, like gnosis i guess imo lol

Yes I agree. To me faith is like the tension between the unknown rational and known irrational
And as such a system of faith serves to mediate/reconcile that tension. :blink:

So I don't know whether you read the post you quoted in its entirety, because at no point did you make clear that you were responding to any individual point made or indeed to the entirety of the post, since you reiterated pretty much things I had responded to in it. If you care to have a look at it, I actually read and responded to individual passages, one at a time. Now maybe I misunderstood each and every one of them, but I find it somewhat ironic to be accused of not reading what I respond to when I do, every time, and you almost never do, which is clearly evidenced by the repeated mischaracterizations of or outright fabrications about things I said. Of course, were I to call your lying about my reading habits coupled with the hypocritical projection they are jerk-ish behaviour like you call my substantive criticisms (that often enough treat your position way too generously as if it were actually realistic), I'd be suspended or banned, like you would probably say is overdue anyway. So I won't. Anyway, I addressed all of your substantive points in this thread and repeatedly in older ones, so I shan't repeat myself again like you never get tired of. The only thing now I care to address is this here passage:

Yabuturtle wrote: If you are hoping to turn me to your side, you are mistaken. You cannot expect to naysay, offer very little reasons and act negative and expect people to turn them to your side and your way of thinking. It didn't work the last few times, why would it work now? I already know this power exists.

Call me arrogant if you must, but to me this is not at all about you. I ask for evidence in the hope of either learning something new myself or exposing something for the fiction it is lest others be duped into it. Whether you will be swayed by your own claims' lack of merit is of very little concern to me. This is the third or fourth time you ask whether my motivation is to sway you, but apparently your careful reading of my responses to that query in the past have escaped you once again. I understand. My memory, too, is far these days from what it once was.
The last bit of the quoted passage is also displaying just the kind of flaw you claim I have, when I don't and you do. I do not "already know", you see. If I did, there'd be no point of us having the discussion. You say that no evidence could sway me (as if you have tried to present any and this isn't yet another excuse for not doing so), yet riddle me, if you can, why then I even ask for any? You, on the other hand, admit openly that you have it all figured out already, and that nothing I say can move you. Who, pray tell, is the open-minded one between the two of us, the one who asks the questions, or the one who already has all the answers?

I never really liked the idea that they call it "psuedo" science. Parapsychology is even considered that but really anything they refuse to understand or not in every text book must mean it's a fake science

But you may as well call Newton, George Washington Carver and Da Vinci pseudo scientists too. Why would these respected scientists even bother trying to study the mystical practices if it was all a waste of time. Doesn't add up to me.

There is an energy field around us and a soul. Without that energy, are bodies are lifeless, but like a robot If a robot doesn't have electricity or some kind of power it doesn't move. So there must be some kind of energy causing us to move

There is something very invigorating about it too. The mystical is always interesting but like with science it can blow up in your face, if you dabble with what they call the dark side. Interestingly, I have met quite a few mental patients, one of them being relatives who would hear voices, see things that are not there, and just so happened to have dabbled with the dark occult, which I don't think is just a coincidence.

Using psychometry to also commune with the dead is quite interesting. Sometimes dreams that one has are actually visits that people have with the departed and you can tell it is real. Much how like my father died, I knew it wasn't a dream. I can tell and hear what he was saying even though he said no words, and telepathy can have something to do with it. A visit will feel different than just a regular dream.