About Police Shootings (in America, Duh)

12 Nov 2019 15:20 #345443 by ZealotX

OB1Shinobi wrote: I think we need to do this in our day to day lives with the people around us, yes, but not with police shootings. Theres no way youre going to know the actual character of a police officer. You assume you know their character, but thats an incorrect assumption. We have to judge shootings based off of the actual evidence. The evidence includes all the backstory: why were the police called/what was the dispatch? How did the police approach the suspect and was it reasonable given the nature of the dispatch? How did the suspect behave when approached? This is why body cams are so important.

who's arguing that EVERY police shooting is bad? I don't know anyone who's saying that. But if a person in car tells the officer that they have a gun and they have a permit for it and the officer basically murders them out of fear that... after being warned... that his life is in danger because a gun exists somewhere in the vehicle. It's like you, as the suspect, have to be more mature, more calm, more respectful, more everything... than the guy wearing the badge. And that's what I have a problem with.

I've been living in Cincinnati temporarily which is the same city where a campus police officer basically kills a guy trying to drive away over missing front plate and expired driver's license. ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Samuel_DuBose )

I don't see the point in arguing every shooting where it is arguably a good decision. If you get food poisoning from a restaurant with rats is it a good defense to say "but what about all the times we didn't kill people with our food and what about the times we didn't have rats?" "Tamir Rice was a tragedy, but what about all the other kids who weren't shot or all the other kids that are hardcore criminals who shoot people over video games?" What does that have to do with any situation involving an unarmed person getting shot and killed? Do you think their family gives one ounce of an F (scuse my lingo) about some other kid when their innocent CHILD is shot dead, not by some bad kid, but by an officer of the law representing their government? Do you think it is even remotely consolation? And yes, I'll say it. How many innocent white kids have been shot playing with guns by police officers?

How did Tamir Rice behave when approached? He was shot in like 2 seconds. Plus he's a kid. What's the argument? That cops are allowed be scared and freak out and break protocol but no one on the other side of their gun is allowed to do the same under penalty of death?

I found the video of the white suspect shot in the hall (I think it was at a hotel) equally disturbing because even though he had the opportunity to comply he was clearly trying to comply but was being given ridiculous instructions by the officer. "crawl to me" Seriously? No... Clearly he should have had him put his hands up and the against the wall and then WAIT THERE for the officer to approach, pat him down or whatever, to determine if he had a weapon. Then he should have put one cuff on with his hands still on the wall, and put them behind his back, one by one, and that's only IF there was reason to detain the guy. If there wasn't he could have just talked to him. So I'm bringing up all these other cases because I see no reason to make excuses for the very specific behavior of some police officers that is in question. I don't see a credible reason to muddy those waters by talking about situations with behavior that is not in question.

OB1Shinobi wrote: How many times have you been locked up? What drugs have you sold? What drugs have you done? These are personal questions but, respectfully, i think your ideas about drug dealers make sense to you because your only knowledge of them comes from popular entertainment. I get the impression that youve never been involved with the druggie life (the real druggie life) pr the crime life at all. I understand thats personal. We can talk about it in PM if youd prefer. Or not. Actually living the life gives you a more realistic perspective.

I have been arrested 2 times, handcuffed 3 times. Both arrests had to do with traffic violations; the results of both cases I find excessive as well as an example of the system trying to squeeze money out of its citizens. The other, and the closest I've ever come to getting shot, was when my father got notified that there was a possible break in at our church and we both went there to check it out and meet whatever officer that got dispatched. And if there was an issue (with a suspect) I didn't want my father being there alone so I got there first. And as I looked at the windows for signs of a break in, little did I know that the cop would assume I was the suspect. I tried to explain the situation to him but he believed all of nothing I said. He decided I was probably guilty and proceeded to arrest me. He put me face down on the concrete, pulled my hand and arm back in a very uncomfortable position, put his knee in my back, and cuffed me. Fortunately, my father pulled up or I would have gone to jail.

No, I've never sold drugs. However I know people, very personally, who have. I've never used drugs (outside of marijuana in my 30s) but I know someone who has and someone who has paranoid schizophrenia, likely from drugs the first time he was locked up, and never been the same since. And ever since then he's been mostly homeless and probably gets arrested sometimes on purpose just to get out of the cold. He told me sometimes the cops just beat him up for no reason. Maybe that's true, maybe it's not. I'm 40 years old. Not everything I know is from TV. And if I had been shot, it wouldn't have been because I was joy riding, but because I was actually trying to do what I believed to be the right thing; protecting my father. Point is, you don't have to be doing something bad or somehow "asking for it" to get shot by law enforcement. And if I felt MY life was in danger then I can only imagine it worse for those who look like me but but have adapted to life in the streets where they need a different mentality in order to survive.

OB1Shinobi wrote: But you cant be around crack heads or heroin addicts and not see that youre destroying people for money.

Not all drug dealers sell crack or heroin. And when people are coming to them to get it, its not a situation everyone is going to interpret as them destroying that person. Trust me, I thought the opposite 20 years ago. As a matter of fact, when TV was all I had to inform my opinion I just thought selling drugs was terrible period and the people who did it were destroying their community. I'm not now saying its somehow a good thing. I'm just saying its not a black and white issue. How many bartenders think they're destroying people who come into their bar and buy multiple drinks until they get wasted? How many pharmacists and doctors think they're destroying people when they prescribe opiates that the person might get addicted to? Some people go to drug dealers, but some people go to doctors for the same thing. And so that's why I'm telling you its not that simple. Which is why drugs should be seen as a public health issue rather than strictly a criminal issue. I know we weren't around during prohibition but think about how much violence there was between the police and guys selling alcohol. Think about it. How many people die from alcohol? How many people are in AA because of alcohol? But its perfectly legal and bartenders don't have to carry guns because they're afraid of other bartenders. Correct me if I'm wrong.

As much as we have criminalized drugs, has it stopped drug abuse? Do you think the gangsters that pushed alcohol were that different from the gangsters today who push drugs? Where do you think they learned from? It's the exact same dynamics. They're selling a black market product that people want and there's competition from other illegal suppliers that sometimes don't respect territorial boundaries because they want more profits. How is that so different from corporations? Corporations destroy lives with greed too but its legal so they don't have to worry about getting shot. Not mention that a lot of "legit business" are started with illegal money; the number of which is actually depressing to me. And if the only difference is the law, who does the law serve? Who can change the law? What's the difference between a bar and a marijuana dispensary? And why is it always "your fault" when the rules could be different if "everyone" simply got on board with changing them?

My family is from Jamaica. Weed was legalized there not too long ago. Before that a lot of people were getting killed, both by other people, and by the police. And it created a bad relationship between police, government (babylon) and citizens. And do you know the biggest reason it was illegal? Because it was illegal in the United States. You think Jamaica was just so against marijuana? It's part of the culture. And how many people have ever died from actually using it? So I hear you. I'm not unreasonable. But I want you to see that there's another side to this thing and even if you see a difference between weed and heroin, that doesn't mean a person using or selling it is treated any different.

And yes, I could make similar arguments with prostitution, gambling, etc. It is society that judges these things and makes it illegal in an attempt to legislate them away. But it doesn't work. It just creates a dangerous underground in which no one has any legal obligation or protection. And so if you sell weed in Ohio you can go to jail for years but if you sell it in California you can go to the bank and deposit your profits. And instead of taking you to jail, maybe the cop decides to shoot you instead. And maybe you're scared of cops so you run. And maybe you hire kids because they'll only go to juvenile detention if they get caught, instead of prison. There are a lot of consequences, unintended or intended, that can make matters worse. And I say everyone needs to be responsible; including lawmakers and the people who vote for them.
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12 Nov 2019 16:58 #345447 by ZealotX

OB1Shinobi wrote: It took me a while to figure this out but ive come to this conclusion: the decision as to whether or not to fire is the important thing. This is a yes/no answer to the question “is deadly force appropriate?” There is no shooting people in the leg, theres no shooting to wound, and there are no “warning shots”. If an officer fires, it is to kill. The important issue is what should the policies on use of deadly force be? If the decision to fire is justified based on the existing policy then it doesnt matter how many bullets were used. Use as many as seems necessary.

The job of police officers is to arrest people. If you know the law you're in a much better position when you deal with them. They will make you think you have to answer their questions when most often, it is simply a trap. They have nothing on you but they will if you give them something. So, do police officers often do the right thing? Of course. Dayton, Ohio is my home town. Dave Chappelle just had a concert there in the wake of a mass shooting. We support the police when they do what they're supposed to do. We pay them to protect us.

We don't pay cops to plant evidence on us. We don't pay them to make sure we're in the right area because we don't look like other residents. We don't pay them to make sure we're not carrying weapons or run our ID when there is no crime that they're responding to. There is a wide range of behaviors that not all police have in common, but enough have for it to be a problem. Have you listened to the Mark Furhman tapes? The fact is that many officers have explicit or implicit bias.

It doesn't have to be this way. But first we have to recognize there's a problem before there can be an acceptable solution. Because, guess what, NO I'm not going to be receptive to treating people of a similar age group the same any more than treating people of the same race the same. Why do you even know how many black kids have been suspects in other crimes? What made you even look that up? What made you think that was relevant information? What about all the good kids like mine, who don't do anything criminal and don't deserve to be treated like they have? What about millions of black people who aren't criminals? Do we factor into the equation anywhere? Do positive statistics ever work in our favor?

Sometimes its the person's fault. But sometimes its the officer. I can't play with a toy because of what? Because someone will think that ME (for some reason) playing with a toy isn't playing and therefore, the gun isn't a toy gun. No, somehow I MUST be running around Walmart with a loaded weapon? You've heard zero gun shots, zero cries for help, zero screaming, zero people are running away from me, but one person gets scared because their brain thinks that this is something someone who looks like me might do. THAT is the truth. And because of that call, police officers get there and add their own biases and assumptions to the point where maybe I'm a terrorist and everyone around me is a potential hostage and so they feel like they have to shoot me to protect everyone else. But the whole story is ridiculous and there were several opportunities to avoid that outcome but people ignored the biases of the caller.

Irrational behavior is not limited to suspects. And sometimes rational behavior can be bad too. I shouldn't have to live in fear because of what other people have done who look like me. I'm me. They are them. If an officer sees them when he sees me that's a problem. And that makes me and others more likely to see those guys in the white hoods when we see them. And that's a problem too. But I can't say the person reacting to the problem is wrong without first addressing the problem they're reacting to. And I definitely am not going to treat people like they're imagining things when they are the victim of implicit or explicit bias while people who share that bias are like "oh well... tried to save him, but he had one of those black diseases", or ... "oh well, turns out he was reaching for his wallet but he should have perfectly heard and followed my instructions if he wanted to live today because some people try to shoot us."

This idea that someone COULD be doing something threatening is being taken to an extreme. And its based on the idea that every criminal suspect is some kind of stupid wannabe action star who can, with hands already up, reach for, pull out, and shoot 2-4 officers before any of them, who already have weapons pointed center mass, can pull the trigger. And of course when they all tell the story about the kid they had to shoot, that's exactly what happened. And when the story is repeated on the news, other people hear it and think, "yup. Those *bleeps* are crazy." This is how the stereotype gets reinforced and then new police reacting to that reinforced stereotype.

And it goes both ways. Police get stereotyped too and so a suspect has to then think, what's the best way to survive the encounter. Is it to run? Is it to shoot? Or is it to cooperate when he or she might still get killed. There is a long history, way longer than BLM, that some people are reacting to and somehow these "unfortunate mistakes" tend to happen a lot in the same community. We now have cops shooting people in their own homes. It's been out of control but it gets worse when cops are made to think they have the authority to act like James Bond. They don't have a license to kill. Their job is to arrest suspects to be tried by the judicial system. The fact they manage to do this more often if you don't look like me, says something. But no, I'm not going to cosign or justify anyone's fear of me, just because I'm 6'2 and over 250lbs. How much less would I justify a fear of children. That is the problem of those who are afraid. And those who are afraid will continue to create that reality.
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12 Nov 2019 21:02 #345453 by Rex
"The job of police officers is to arrest people."

"If you know the law you're in a much better position when you deal with them."

If you think your rights are abrogated at any point in an encounter with an LEO, record the entire thing if possible, and call a lawyer afterwards. Any time a government official steps over the bounds of their authority, and does something ultra vires that gives you standing, you are entitled to remedy.
If you're being stopped, just ask them *politely* if you're under arrest, and if their requests are commands.

Unfortunately the standards for a police killing someone is different from a regular person doing the same thing. Justice is harder to serve, but in cases like Botham Jean's murder, it does happen.

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12 Nov 2019 23:00 #345454 by Carlos.Martinez3
Here in the states , cops are a strange thing. Like most things , change comes from action. Here is no exception.
My dealings with police isn’t a good thing when it happens. At that point all avenues are taken or tried.
Cops are my last resort always. Citizens have a very unique ability to mob or to help. Some times ya don’t need much help but some times it can help.
Read and heard about the kid who brought a gun to school and the teacher grabbed him - held him till all was over. One act of bravery may save a life or influence another. There are jerks out there. I try to tell my family and children and friends but not everything is sunshine and daisys - don’t put your self in that spot. If you do find yourself there... know what to do. I tell people here anything they feel threatened call the police and log it. Even if it’s the cops there - call some one. Ask for a boss. Be smart. Be safe think. Know your limits. Learn em. Bravery is cool some times but a smart person will ask a cop if they are drawn to call their supervisor and get some one there - things usually change or at least help. There’s always a bigger fish can apply here- every body works for someone. A log of activity can help those in charge see more than just random shots in the dark.

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14 Nov 2019 13:54 - 14 Nov 2019 13:55 #345525 by ZealotX

Rex wrote: "The job of police officers is to arrest people."

Google: The duties of a police officer, also known as a law enforcement officer, focus on protecting people and property. They patrol the areas they are assigned, which sometimes include entire jurisdictions, respond to calls, enforce laws, make arrests, issue citations, and occasionally testify in court cases.

(as opposed to "killing bad guys")

The point is, that if protecting people means having to take someone else's life, then that's fine if that's what you have to do even though its still making a choice between one life and another. However, if it's property, then that's not okay because a life is more valuable than any property. But if the only perceived threat is to the officer, then this is wear bias and fear often enter into the equation and the police, in my opinion, act outside of their mandate.

Far too often, the police show up to a scene, and because they're more scared than anyone else, they escalate the situation into a life or death game of some kind of old western. Except the police, standing at a distance, must be more ready to kill you at all times than whatever defensive action you could possibly take against them. And on one hand its tactical from a personal perspective. They're getting taught martial arts techniques as well as shooter techniques designed to make make sure they don't get hurt... that THEY are protected.

Although that seems very reasonable...

If you condition the mind to think they're in danger and you trigger their training as a reflex, they might mentally "go back to Nam" and now "Charlie" is trying to get them. I don't mean to make it sound so extreme, but understand what I'm saying. When it becomes about the cop and the cop's life and the cop's safety... its no longer about protecting and serving the community. The risk to one's safety is inherent to the job. When a firefighter goes into a burning building they know their life is in danger and their gear is 100% protection. They don't just run away if the fire's too big. With police, I can understand if there's a report of shots fired. You should change your approach. Your weapon should be drawn. You should be taking cover and using squad tactics. But if you treat every situation the same, that's how a lot of unarmed people get killed. And again... that's not their job. The worst behavior I've seen is when a cop cannot catch a fleeing suspect so they shoot them in the back. And they can't seem to develop non-lethal weapons that can be used at a distance (like the bolo gun in Death Stranding). And even then its like they have to shoot to kill.

But I'm telling you guys... it's their job to arrest, not to kill. We have to decide, as a society, how much we value human life. If its a fetus a lot of people lose their minds over trying to protect it. But if its 13+, someone's child, someone's grand baby, they're fine if the kid looks scary. "oh noooooo he has on a hoodie! Shoot!" The police don't take it as their job to protect and serve the suspect because in their minds that person is the offender and not part of the community. But a different suspect... they might even take to Burger King after he guns down a church. Someone else though, can simply have a gun in the car and get shot even after telling the cop that he has a license for it. It's ridiculous. And a lot of it boils down to how scared someone is and how much they rely on their gun to overcome that fear. And my opinion is that if you're THAT scared you shouldn't even have a gun, much less a badge that says you get to use one.
Last edit: 14 Nov 2019 13:55 by ZealotX.
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14 Nov 2019 18:42 - 14 Nov 2019 18:51 #345535 by Rex
The force continuum might sound like something we believe in here, but it covers lethal use of force when LEOs are attempting to do their job. If the possibility of using lethal force wasn't in LE's purview, why are they issued handguns? Edit: there are 3 depts in the US I could find which had some unarmed officers, so not all police are armed.

If what you meant to say was that Police aren't hit squads meant to shoot first instead of arrest, yes that is what they should be.

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Last edit: 14 Nov 2019 18:51 by Rex. Reason: Fact checked myself
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22 Nov 2019 17:01 - 22 Nov 2019 17:03 #345929 by OB1Shinobi

ZealotX wrote: Yes. In this case I understand why the officer thought he had to fire. But do I think the man had to die? No.

He didnt have to die, he could have put down the gun. He could have not assaulted someone with a gun in the first place. He could have not tried to drag her away when the police showed up. He got himself killed by beating and threatening to murder that woman and by not obeying the police when they arrived. He is not the victim here, that woman is. Her son is. Even the police officer who now has to reconcile the fact that he killed someone is more of a victim than the guy who was killed, imo.

It was a very dangerous and volatile situation and he was more than likely disturbed.

Responding to people with mental health issues is a serious topic which, thankfully is beginning to get attention among law enforcement agencies. Most LEO and agencies dont have appropriate training or response teams. THAT BEING SAID: There is a comedian named Ron White who did a bit about the death penalty where he said something along these lines: if youre the kind of crazy person that eats crayons and finger-paints with doodoo then I feel empathy for you and say we should feed you for the rest of your life.If youre the kind of crazy person that murders grandmothers and children...eh, you should have ate crayons and finger painted with doodoo, lol. I agree with his basic sentiment: if your mental health issue drives you to murdering people, eh, youre a murderer. Id rather see the murderer killed than his victims killed.

You don't have a lot of time to think. I assume the officer fired to protect the woman because it wasn't clear whether she was a hostage or whether he was just going to shoot her no matter what. But I WISH he could have been engaged in conversation by asking him questions. "Sir, what happened? Is your mother okay? What happened to your mother? What's her name? What did this woman do to you that made you mad?"

This last bit makes me wonder if you actually did watch the video. The guy screaming "thats my momma" was not the guy with the gun.

Where I agree with you is that I think police need to be trained to be more patient and to be able to relate to suspects in a way that personalizes everyone involved - a way that is respectful of peoples dignity, even if they are suspected of something. The real-world application of that is more complicated than I think most people realize.
What i have to point out is that you dont know that the officer didnt try asking him questions. Im quite confident the officer was saying something to the guy, but we cant hear it. All we hear is the woman's son in the background yelling "thats my momma!". We have no clue what the officer said. Also notice the cop didnt fire until the guy tried dragging her away (possibly by her hair, we cant tell). So, the cop didnt just blast this dude, he fired when he saw the suspect was going to escalate the situation.

But the problem is that a lot of this decision is based on the level of fear that the officer has. The more afraid he is the more likely he is to interpret the situation as a lost cause and the person as unreasonable or nonresponsive. There was another situation with a disturbed man but his family was able to diffuse both the suspect AND the officer, convincing the officer that the individual wasn't a threat. One of them even had to get between the officer and the individual. When a disturbed individual gets their hands on a gun... that's very serious.

I posted a specific video of a specific incident to open the discussion to a specific sub-topic: "why do police fire so many rounds when they shoot people". Its ok if we talk about other incidents but if we you want to bring up a specific incident please include links to sources which give a thorough explanation of the event.

[/quote]But if you notice most of the controversy over police shootings, isn't when the suspect has a gun or even when the suspect is disturbed. [/quote]

I see people flipping out about all kinds of police shootings.

I'm a bit older (I GUESS) now so I remember back in the day when there were less guns and people actually got in fist fights. If I talked about fist fights with the current generation they'd probably be like "Ok, Boomer". I'm not a Boomer. It wasn't that long ago!

Same! The irony is they also think they are "harder" because they do something stupidly extreme lol not fully understanding the only reason theyre jumping the gun is because theyre afraid theyll get their a$$ beat.

The problem is that shootings of UNARMED people happen too.

Yes, and then people who have no clue about the reality of cops being shot chime in that because the person was unarmed that they werent dangerous. You dont actually know a person is unarmed until theyve been restrained and searched. this guy was passed out from heroin on a bus. After the being revived, an officer was talking to him and he pulled out a gun and killed one of the firefighters who came there to help him.

This guy said he wasnt armed and was talking calmly and coolly with the police officer until he oh-so-casually
removed a pistol from his coat and killed the officer.

People are complicated.
Last edit: 22 Nov 2019 17:03 by OB1Shinobi.

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23 Nov 2019 13:53 - 23 Nov 2019 14:13 #345958 by OB1Shinobi
The Washington Post has been compiling a database of police shootings for several years, now. The search filters are OK, you can search by gender, state, race, age, mental illness, body cam footage, weapon type, and unarmed. In the past i have encountered a pay wall but theres a lot you can get out of it without having to subscribe and its a great resource for anyone interested in the topic. Its based on news reports and in many cases some of the details (such as race or type of weapon) are unknown.

Based on what IS known, we can say that 810 people have been fatally shot by police so far this year. 458 of them were armed with a gun, 141 were armed with a knife, 20 were in possession of a toy weapon (one of those was 14 yrs old, the rest were adults) 52 were potentially using a vehicle as a weapon, 49 had “other” weapon, 35 were unarmed, and 55 were categorized “unknown”.


People are complicated.
Last edit: 23 Nov 2019 14:13 by OB1Shinobi.
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23 Nov 2019 21:39 - 23 Nov 2019 21:58 #345989 by OB1Shinobi

ZealotX wrote: But a different suspect... they might even take to Burger King after he guns down a church.

That didnt happen. Black Twitter and the far left SJW bozo media bobble-heads are lying to you.
Heres a link: www.google.com/amp/s/www.snopes.com/news...oof-burger-king/amp/

Heres a video:

People are complicated.
Last edit: 23 Nov 2019 21:58 by OB1Shinobi.

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23 Nov 2019 21:54 - 23 Nov 2019 22:14 #345991 by JamesSand
As an investigator It's not your job to determine guilt, it's your job to collect facts in order for a judge (or other system) to determine guilt.

You're also required to ensure anyone being questioned, whether they conducted the alleged act, or are being questioned for other reasons, is aware of their rights and responsibilities, and is offered appropriate water and bathroom breaks.

It's not a far stretch to imagine in certain jurisdictions or circumstances, you are required to offer some kind of food as well.

Edit: Just putting this in to emphasise, in case anyone is not clear (noting that this may vary with different countries and government styles, but it is broadly the concept) - if you murder a child with a chainsaw, and a police officer sees you do it - as long as you put the chainsaw down and make it obvious you are no longer a threat before the police officer can shoot you - they can not shoot you.
They can shoot you if you are still a threat, or about to be a threat, or look like you might be about to be a threat*, but if you are not a threat, if the alleged crime is over, they are not the judge, they can not conduct an on the spot execution to save the taxpayer money, they can only arrest you, and ask questions within their jurisdiction (the least of which is generally just to confirm your identity, so they can hand you over to higher investigative authorities)

*Which is why cops in movies say things like "make my day" if you make a threatening move, they can (legally) act to stop you - which is probably (again broadly, I don't have Ob1s interest in fact checking) the primary defence used by police in shooting investigations.

As far as having your kate and edith too - People seem to swing wildly from wanting Police to be friendly park rangers, to wanting them to be judge, jury and executioner.

What do you want? Cops to shoot first, shoot more, shoot again, and not ask questions, or do you want them to be impartial, humane, and uphold due process?

Do you want them to have powers to protect themselves, and the innocent?

Noting, that whatever powers you give them - they're not going to get everything right 100% of the time. Hindsight and a thousand shaky vertical-shot phone camera chunks of footage are great - none of which they have access to at the time they are required to make a decision.

and if you give them no powers - well, would you do a job where you have to deal with people at their worsts moments every day, but you have no right to protect the innocent or yourself? Would you turn up to that? If so, how much would you want to be paid for that risk to your health (both physical and mental) ?
Last edit: 23 Nov 2019 22:14 by JamesSand.
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