Society has decided that we are so scared of guns that we need more guns and so anyone can get a gun; which includes criminals and mentally disturbed individuals. Some people came home from service with PTSD and in reality THEY shouldn't have guns either. So yes, guns don't kill people, people do. HOWEVER, if you fail to control guns from getting into the wrong hands then that's also a people problem. If I'm in car and someone shoots someone and jumps in my car I'm probably on the hook for that murder too. But if I sell you a gun and don't care what you do with it I have no legal responsibility. Imagine if selling a gun meant that you had to share legal responsibility for what the person you sold it to did with it... wouldn't there be fewer situations like this? If you sell a person drugs you can go to jail because we've decided that drugs are dangerous. And if that person overdoses and dies you can be charged, I believe, with their death. But you can sell a gun and simply wash your hands of it.
"you should have ate crayons and finger painted with doodoo, lol. I agree with his basic sentiment: if your mental health issue drives you to murdering people, eh, youre a murderer. Id rather see the murderer killed than his victims killed."
But what if you replace his crayons with a gun? And what if he's not a murderer when you kill him? We're basically killing him because he could be a murderer and we don't know. We're assuming he will because we're scared of him. Most animals, even large ones, will attack a human if they are sufficiently scared and concerned for their own safety or the safety of another animal they're protecting. So under the wrong circumstances crayons and doodoo can "present" as something very dangerous. It's just that they don't feel threatened while they're painting with doodoo.
Harambe was a classic case (even though yes I'm comparing an animal to a person). They shot him because they didn't know what he would do and they were afraid and assumed he would hurt the child who had fallen in his pen. It wasn't his fault the child fell. And it wasn't his choice to be a display for human children to see. Maybe he would have protected the child and tried to help. But people couldn't take that risk. I think that's how cops generally treat situations with people with mental health issues. If the person seems out of control, they get scared. But we're also, as a society, contributing to the position that person is in and by extension the situation that person creates.
"This last bit makes me wonder if you actually did watch the video. The guy screaming "thats my momma" was not the guy with the gun."
I did. It was actually an article that said that the voice was another unidentified man. Had I read that part my response would have been different. That's what made me think there was a mental health issue. Without that, then I would have to withdraw my previous reasoning. And I agree with you about how the officer handled the situation. If the guy was at least talking then it gives you more, psychologically, to work with. I know its asking a lot to want officers to know some psychology but since its a matter of life and death... I kind of want them to.
Same! The irony is they also think they are "harder" because they do something stupidly extreme lol not fully understanding the only reason theyre jumping the gun is because theyre afraid theyll get their a$$ beat.
yeah, exactly. That's why I, even though guns are fun to shoot, I don't like the idea of them really. Because its too easy to kill someone. And I wish it wasn't that easy to kill someone. I think its kind of like money. If money is harder to get people tend to appreciate it more and hold on to it better and make wiser decisions with it. If its easy to get they get reckless and take it for granted. It's cheap and they treat it like they themselves are just as cheap. But yes, one of my favorite quotes is one from Dune, "fear is the mind killer".
You dont actually know a person is unarmed until theyve been restrained and searched.
I agree. That's true. Hindsight is 20/20 but I think its good to look at these things and think about what you might have done differently. In the case of the man on the bus, I think they should check people for weapons while they're unconscious. In both cases, I BELIEVE, that if they weren't questioned about weapons they would not have fired. If you disagree that's okay. But I think this is what's happening. People usually carry guns because they're afraid of guns being used on them. I think it helps to add to a certain paranoia and when you combine drugs into the mix then that paranoia is multiplied x3.
I had an old friend that I took care of for awhile because he was homeless and he was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia after spending time in jail where he most likely was introduced to drugs. He was not the same when he got out and seeing how he acted around people, he could go off at any minute and get upset. People on drugs are not your normal average criminals and they, imo, have to be handled differently. And part of it, honestly, a lot of people get it into their heads that they're "not going back." You know what that means, right? If they believe they're going to get arrested it triggers that fight or flight response because for some, that arrest feels like a death sentence or worse. So they know, that once this officer pats them down, they're going to then find out that the gun isn't legal.
While officers should check for weapons for safety you also have the issue of officers looking for reasons to bust people. And when an officer goes from talking to you to trying to find out if you're carrying, that could trigger suspicions that the officer is looking for evidence to use against you. You and I might look at the video and say, no, the officer was acting properly although I don't know why he picked that moment to check for weapons. He was fine before and no one seemed threatened. But if the guy had priors, he knew all that was going to come up if the officers ran his id and they would definitely do that if they found a gun on him. So then for him it was a life or death struggle before the officer understood that's what he was triggering.
So even though it may sound like I'm defending the person in the wrong, I think SOP needs work. Standard procedure should, if a person is incapacitated, check for weapons so that EMTs and whoever else is there is safe. If you're questioning a guy you need to let him know early on that he's not a suspect and not in trouble. If he is a suspect or is in trouble then your gun needs to be drawn but aimed at a 30-60 degree angle and the suspect need to get their hands in the air.
The problem is that he was asked a question which had a triggering potential and wasn't prepared for the reaction. Because what people often hear is more than what the officer thinks he's saying. What they hear is "I'm about to arrest you and ruin your life over this. Feel free to cooperate while I bend you over and spread your legs." Officers often use terms like buddy and in an instant they're very much not your friend. And because it can turn on a dime I think you have to be careful not to trigger people if you can avoid it. And you do that by giving them the information they need to feel safe. Neither of those guys felt safe. And the guy who shot himself afterwards is just evidence of how he made a rash instinctive move because he probably knew he was in trouble. I think even temporary insanity could apply in some of these cases.
Part of the problem is the relationship between the police and the community. Some of these people are repeat offenders so they know the system. They may have been screwed over by the system several times before. We don't know their history; neither does the officer at the scene. I think the reality is that everyone wants to go home alive. And if the officer's job sometimes involves detaining people and keeping them from going home for a long time then that prospect is worth risking their lives (or perhaps even suicide by cop) to escape from. So I think we need gun reform, criminal justice reform, legalization of marijuana, etc. so that people stop thinking its the end of the world if an officer detains them. I would maybe even consider not arresting people at the scene anymore unless there's physical violence and let them report to their hearing on their own or report to jail before issuing an arrest warrant. The system goes way overboard on jail. I can tell you that for sure. Most crimes should honestly just be a predetermined fine and a hearing only if you choose to fight it. Jail does little but harden criminals and make them more likely to re-offend. If the officers in these concealed weapon videos said "hey I'm sorry but I gotta write you a ticket. If you pass a drug test you can easily get out of it though." there's a good chance no one would have died. It may be a stretch but I can feel their fear.
