About Police Shootings (in America, Duh)

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14 Jul 2016 14:41 - 14 Jul 2016 14:50 #248132 by OB1Shinobi

Miss_Leah wrote:

Adder wrote: You'd think mandatory body camera's and vehicle camera's would reduce or even eliminate the inappropriate/illegal conduct by Police. But they might have to have all actions reviewed by an independent third party in ongoing terms, to vet for misconduct. Then it should be safe to assert that its not the Police's fault for the proportion of any particular group in shootings, if the conduct is proper, and it might point to a higher criminal activity of those particular groups more then anything else.


But is the issue truly being solved if police are only conducting themselves properly because they're being watched?


yes and no

there are a lot of things that should happen to "solve" the issue

obviously, police need media coverage to be fair to the trth of events and not just to getting attention

and we need more programs that allow and encourage citizens to be able to volunteer to be police ourselves for a duration of time, and/or to accompany police from time to time so we can see first hand what the demands of the job are

police should be part of the communities they patrol

imo there should be an officer whose only weapon is his or her body cam and radio, and these should be the first (and only) officers most people see, most of the time

and all of them should have cams at al times
cams should be like miranda rights, if the footage is compromised, so is the arrest

but these are all just ideas to change the undesired outcome (inappropriate killing by police) and not the cause

if we identify the "cause" of the problem as simply "us vs them" then there is no solution.
i have no idea what is the ratio of "average citizen who isnt trying to hurt anybody" to "genuine bad guy who IS trying to hurt somebody" but the police DO have to work together to deal with people who ARE dangerous and violent and unstable

and even dealing with average citizens is tough because lets be real, its never good as a citizen to be talking to the police

bad things happen to people who interact with the police and no one wants to have to accept the lousy thing thats about to happen

so even people who are otherwise decent can be hostile, although its usually only a mental "youre a fucking jerk" kind of hostile, not really anything that intends physical harm

but when someone is treating you like a jerk its only natural to be defensive and feel "us vs them" because in a way it IS "us vs them"

not to mention that the "us vs them" is a basic component of the human psyche; im sure it can be traced to our evolution and its not going anywhere in and of itself

so if the external events and the unacceptable outcomes can be reduced, i think thats as good of a solution as anyone can hope for

??

we can attempt to to redefine who the "us" is and who the "them" is/are

but the definitions have to hold up under fire, and coming up with definitions (more complex than "we are the police and you are not") that can really do so is not very easy to do

“As long as you feel that you are the most important thing in the world you cannot really appreciate the world around you. You are like a horse with blinders, all you see is yourself apart from everything else.”
-Don Juan Matus
Last edit: 14 Jul 2016 14:50 by OB1Shinobi.
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14 Jul 2016 14:56 - 14 Jul 2016 14:56 #248135 by Leah Starspectre
Yes, that's exactly what I mean, cams may help undesirable outcomes, but they don't solve the underlying issue. It's breaking off a weed by the stem without pulling out the roots.

In order to improve the "us vs them" mentality, we need to take a hard look at those who lead us (both directly, as in politics, and indirectly, as in other areas: media, education, corporations, etc) - they are supposed to act as representatives of the population at large, so if the leaders of a country are racist, misogynistic, bigots, is it any wonder why so many people are following suit?
Last edit: 14 Jul 2016 14:56 by Leah Starspectre.
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14 Jul 2016 22:38 - 14 Jul 2016 22:39 #248184 by Adder

Miss_Leah wrote: Yes, that's exactly what I mean, cams may help undesirable outcomes, but they don't solve the underlying issue. It's breaking off a weed by the stem without pulling out the roots.

In order to improve the "us vs them" mentality, we need to take a hard look at those who lead us (both directly, as in politics, and indirectly, as in other areas: media, education, corporations, etc) - they are supposed to act as representatives of the population at large, so if the leaders of a country are racist, misogynistic, bigots, is it any wonder why so many people are following suit?


I'd imagine even a family dynamic can be enough to entrench bigotry and I don't think government can reach there, but it could happen anywhere or entirely in ones head even, so maybe better screening for employment along with the better monitoring. We cannot 'fix' everyone, the system just needs to be as robust as possible.... tangible things which can be done to make improvements might not solve the problem entirely but progress is a good thing (if it can happen). I just don't think its one root which can be pulled.

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Last edit: 14 Jul 2016 22:39 by Adder.
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15 Jul 2016 02:20 - 15 Jul 2016 02:38 #248191 by OB1Shinobi

Miss_Leah wrote: Yes, that's exactly what I mean, cams may help undesirable outcomes, but they don't solve the underlying issue. It's breaking off a weed by the stem without pulling out the roots.

In order to improve the "us vs them" mentality, we need to take a hard look at those who lead us (both directly, as in politics, and indirectly, as in other areas: media, education, corporations, etc) - they are supposed to act as representatives of the population at large, so if the leaders of a country are racist, misogynistic, bigots, is it any wonder why so many people are following suit?


what im getting from your post is. "we need to reevaluate and reorganize our entire civilization" which is all well and good and i agree
but even after we do this there will still be the reality that cops deal with in an adversarial context

us vs them is inescapable when there is really an US and there is really a THEM

and there is an us and them in police work

even the average citizen who isnt out to get anyone will see police as antagonists simply because the only time police deal with you is in situations where they are likely to arrest or ticket you

so its inherently adversarial

we cant change that really, but we can (maybe) structure the organization and protocol so as to emphasize that the role of public servant is just as important as or maybe even more important than the role of enforcer and disciplinarian

i think thats a more workable solution than reordering the whole culture

which i think we do need to reorder our culture, but thats so vast that it is difficult imo to make a case that its the solution for any specific problem

“As long as you feel that you are the most important thing in the world you cannot really appreciate the world around you. You are like a horse with blinders, all you see is yourself apart from everything else.”
-Don Juan Matus
Last edit: 15 Jul 2016 02:38 by OB1Shinobi.

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25 Jul 2016 13:09 - 25 Jul 2016 13:12 #249228 by novaadwhite
There is only one solution and that is for everyone to learn to love one another. There is too much hate in existance.

There are alot that will watch from the outsides and say that it's not a race thing.
There are also those that are inside of the situation , meaning this is their lives or a deep look was taken on the matter. These people will say it is a race thing.

Personally, I have alot of police officers in my family and I feel as though it is a race thing. The wrong people have been given guns and badges and the country as a whole will support the death until it happens to someone they see as more important.

In a personal situation, at the age of 5 , i remember my mother being pulled out of her car and forced to lay on the ground with police pointing guns at her. Officers then searched the vehicle and let her go after seeing me and my brother in the back seat watching. We never found out why this happened.

I also have a few friends (one who is the lapd academy) who were rather attacked by officers but never reported because
( who do you call? them? ). I've personally been stopped and searched by officers a few times , however , I am a straight edge , dorky looking guy so all they would find on me would be a cellphone ,wallet and a nintendo ds. They are extremely rude when you ask them why you are being searched but i know the reason is due to race. Of course I do not resist because I do not want give a them a valid reason.

The scary part about this is if the officer decides to shoot, unless someone has full footage, reports will say that i was an armed gang member (even without tattoos ) attacked an officer and the world will believe it. I'd only have family and the anime club to vouch for me. :laugh:

The point of this is; The violence ends when HATE does. We cannot ask for peace nor demand it until we sacrifice our ill feelings for that of love & compassion for one another.

(also: i've heard there are areas in the UK where police don't carry guns... can anyone tell me what that is like? )
Last edit: 25 Jul 2016 13:12 by novaadwhite.

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25 Jul 2016 15:20 #249234 by Silas Mercury
the police in the UK have only carried guns since the paris attacks

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25 Jul 2016 15:30 - 25 Jul 2016 15:31 #249238 by Edan

Silas Mercury wrote: the police in the UK have only carried guns since the paris attacks


Not true... I've seen police officers with guns for a long time.. way before Paris... Usually in London in train stations.
More likely they've been carrying them since the 7/7 bombings.

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Compassion in the place of cruelty
Action in the place of apathy
Peace in the place of violence
Mercy in the place of vengeance

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Last edit: 25 Jul 2016 15:31 by Edan.

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25 Jul 2016 15:48 #249242 by OB1Shinobi
i think our police force would do better if less of them carried guns

“As long as you feel that you are the most important thing in the world you cannot really appreciate the world around you. You are like a horse with blinders, all you see is yourself apart from everything else.”
-Don Juan Matus

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25 Jul 2016 15:51 #249246 by Silas Mercury
No, I think it's good that they carry guns. Better if they carry guns that fire blanks. Rule by fear of force, not by force itself, after all.

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25 Jul 2016 20:25 - 25 Jul 2016 20:28 #249299 by Lightstrider
I would like to see something like an amplified, more active neighborhood watch type structure where neighborhoods, parts of a community in a way police themselves. By getting to know each other, who the trouble makers are, who is in what situation (of course it's hard because a lot of people don't want everyone to know their business, and also some people get off on getting into other people's business), just generally looking out and being situationally aware as a community can really put the pressure off police and allow them to focus on more important and serious issues.

Various shops, businesses, recreational places and attractions need more security. Here in Russia they have security everywhere, metal detectors at the bigger malls and at least simple plain clothed 'bouncer' style people in stores and walking around. Where I'm at the police ride 3-4 officers in car, all carrying fully automatic AKs and submachine guns, there are also foot patrols and they setup on different roads stopping random people to check them out. Police here aren't shooting everyone. But can't really compare Russia to the USA.

Because of our bill of rights and constitution, I'm glad police don't have this level of power and authority to just stop everyoe to ask for papers. The weigh stations throughout and between each republic here are checkpoints where they can flag you down, make you walk through a building with detectors, input your passport into their system, search your car. With the way things are going though in the US, this will become possible if the citizens themselves don't start taking an active role in the safety and wellbeing of their own communities, let alone themselves. Right now metaphorically it's like if you live in an area with torandos, you build a house with a basement but today people don't even have them they just die and wonder why.

This is for me the primary, modern function of the militia today but using this term scares people because of the clowns out there on both sides. I think it's time for there to be a medium between individuals of the community and the police. A lot of small problems can be dealt with 'in house' before becoming the bigger problems we experience. This organization I wish to see cannot come from the government it has to be started by people in their communities. Something like this is the last option before we go into a fully blown, martial law style police state kissing our bill of rights and constitution goodbye.

Talking about guns is a strawman agrument so insiders and grown children can immediately wash themselves of any responsibility it would take to actually engage the larger issues at play like our monetary/foreign policies for example.
Last edit: 25 Jul 2016 20:28 by Lightstrider.
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