About Police Shootings (in America, Duh)

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12 Jul 2016 13:14 #247917 by Karn

MadHatter wrote:

Karn wrote: My biggest concern is the future of law enforcement. We shed a bad light on LEO, we make them out to be the "bad guy", then who is going to want to be one? I get paid $8.60/hour as a Police Officer, that is about $56/day take home.

With the ever increasing liability law suits against officers, not departments, you have to get insurance or your personal assets can be taken away for even the most minor mistake in a "routine" traffic stop.
.


Ok you make 8.60 an hour?Are you in your first year because even then this page says that you make www.austintexas.gov/page/benefits-and-salary roughly 57,000 a year which in no way is 8.60 an hour.

You are at risk of being sued ? I must say I doubt that as you have qualified immunity which makes that almost impossible www.law.cornell.edu/wex/qualified_immunity


I do not live in Austin TX. I live in a small town. A tourist town, which can be scary considering most of my encounters are with transient (unknown) people, not my tax paying citizens. And yes, the McDonalds employee makes more than I do. McDonalds makes a lot more money than my city does. My city could not afford that kind of income for the staff. Just like any occupation in any city, the wages will vary greatly in different areas in the country. I am sure that LEO make a lot more money in CA ($81k in San Franxisco starting) then they do in Austin TX. Cost of living in every area, the size of the population, the amount of taxes taken from said population (the source of the income for your LEO's pay), all need to be factored in.

Qualified immunity is very real. That does not mean you cannot sue a LEO. It means that it "shield officials from harassment, distraction, and liability when they perform their duties reasonably". More specifically, "it protects government officials from lawsuits alleging that they violated plaintiffs’ rights, only allowing suits where officials violated a “clearly established” statutory or constitutional right." "When determining whether or not a right was “clearly established,” courts consider whether a hypothetical reasonable official would have known that the defendant’s conduct violated the plaintiff’s rights."

It is becoming harder to define these specific words: "duties reasonably", and "reasonable official". The shades of gray are becoming more blurred and there is no black or white when in any situation. Police do not have Absolute Immunity, which is a different thing, and they shouldn't. This is a balance that helps to keep people making "reasonable decisions".

Most people will sue the city/department, because let us be honest, that is where the money is. The city/department has a much bigger wallet than an individual.

Here are two articles about liability if you are still interested.

www.deedysupport.com/the-down-and-dirty-...sional-associations/

www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-police-insurance-idUSKCN0WJ2R1

Bottom line is it is adding to the stress and concerns for Police to do the job when they have to worry that the next action they take may be perceived wrong and cause a lifetime of pain and restitution. Most LEO decisions are made in less than a second, a reaction to an ever changing situation. With training we hope that the decisions we make are the right ones, but if we instill doubt, that hesitation could be costly.

Plus these shootings do not make LEO feel safe. Now people are calling 911, and ambushing the LEO when he gets there to "help". When you approach a vehicle, alone at night, on a dark road, the windows are tinted, you cannot see who or how many people are in the vehicle, how "safe" do you think the officer feels when he approaches that vehicle?

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12 Jul 2016 15:49 #247923 by Silas Mercury
How can you like Donald Trump ?? He is a disgusting human being. Is he even a human being ?? The Republicans have always been considered the bad guys. You had George W. Bush, for goodness sake. GEORGE W. BUSH !!??

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12 Jul 2016 15:57 #247925 by user15542
Silas, please check your tone. This is a religious Temple, not a place to fling insults at (even famous) people.

Also please show a little respect for your fellow Jedi who may have differing political leanings to yourself - deeming some (perhaps many) here supporters/members of "the bad guys" reveals a very specific prejudice in your thinking.

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12 Jul 2016 16:07 - 12 Jul 2016 16:08 #247926 by Silas Mercury
Sorry tzb and anyone i offended. I'm just really upset with the current political structure that their is today, and i think it's awful that after Ronald Reagan we're letting another celebrity run for office.
Last edit: 12 Jul 2016 16:08 by Silas Mercury.
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12 Jul 2016 16:27 #247927 by user15542
Regardless of their pre-political career, every president is a celebrity - the ultimate celebrity, perhaps the most famous person on the planet. Some would argue that's their major function, as a media-friendly figurehead, the public face for a party to hide behind who actually wields supreme power.

To be a celebrity just means to have achieved fame in your given field. I'm sure some celebrities would make very good presidents - even if I don't believe Trump is an example of that. Being a celebrity is unavoidable for a president, and in my opinion shouldn't exclude someone from becoming president. Perhaps it could even be viewed as an advantage that someone is already used to that level of public scrutiny and media attention.
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12 Jul 2016 16:35 - 12 Jul 2016 16:39 #247929 by MadHatter

Karn wrote:

MadHatter wrote:

Karn wrote: My biggest concern is the future of law enforcement. We shed a bad light on LEO, we make them out to be the "bad guy", then who is going to want to be one? I get paid $8.60/hour as a Police Officer, that is about $56/day take home.

With the ever increasing liability law suits against officers, not departments, you have to get insurance or your personal assets can be taken away for even the most minor mistake in a "routine" traffic stop.
.


Ok you make 8.60 an hour?Are you in your first year because even then this page says that you make www.austintexas.gov/page/benefits-and-salary roughly 57,000 a year which in no way is 8.60 an hour.

You are at risk of being sued ? I must say I doubt that as you have qualified immunity which makes that almost impossible www.law.cornell.edu/wex/qualified_immunity


I do not live in Austin TX. I live in a small town. A tourist town, which can be scary considering most of my encounters are with transient (unknown) people, not my tax paying citizens. And yes, the McDonalds employee makes more than I do. McDonalds makes a lot more money than my city does. My city could not afford that kind of income for the staff. Just like any occupation in any city, the wages will vary greatly in different areas in the country. I am sure that LEO make a lot more money in CA ($81k in San Franxisco starting) then they do in Austin TX. Cost of living in every area, the size of the population, the amount of taxes taken from said population (the source of the income for your LEO's pay), all need to be factored in.

Qualified immunity is very real. That does not mean you cannot sue a LEO. It means that it "shield officials from harassment, distraction, and liability when they perform their duties reasonably". More specifically, "it protects government officials from lawsuits alleging that they violated plaintiffs’ rights, only allowing suits where officials violated a “clearly established” statutory or constitutional right." "When determining whether or not a right was “clearly established,” courts consider whether a hypothetical reasonable official would have known that the defendant’s conduct violated the plaintiff’s rights."

It is becoming harder to define these specific words: "duties reasonably", and "reasonable official". The shades of gray are becoming more blurred and there is no black or white when in any situation. Police do not have Absolute Immunity, which is a different thing, and they shouldn't. This is a balance that helps to keep people making "reasonable decisions".

Most people will sue the city/department, because let us be honest, that is where the money is. The city/department has a much bigger wallet than an individual.

Here are two articles about liability if you are still interested.

www.deedysupport.com/the-down-and-dirty-...sional-associations/

www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-police-insurance-idUSKCN0WJ2R1

Bottom line is it is adding to the stress and concerns for Police to do the job when they have to worry that the next action they take may be perceived wrong and cause a lifetime of pain and restitution. Most LEO decisions are made in less than a second, a reaction to an ever changing situation. With training we hope that the decisions we make are the right ones, but if we instill doubt, that hesitation could be costly.

Plus these shootings do not make LEO feel safe. Now people are calling 911, and ambushing the LEO when he gets there to "help". When you approach a vehicle, alone at night, on a dark road, the windows are tinted, you cannot see who or how many people are in the vehicle, how "safe" do you think the officer feels when he approaches that vehicle?


Ok so I was wrong about where I thought you were and worked from a faulty premise. I will offer my apologies for that and say next time I will ask those sorts of things via pm. I hope that you can understand why I did have questions though considering that BLS says that the lowest salary for police officers that they record is 30k a year ( 15 an hr roughly) and that only ten percent of cops in Texas make 15-16 an hour. But in the end I was wrong and again my apologies.

I will say that an E3 in the military makes about 11 an hour in their first two years and that is if we calculate a 40 hour 5 day work week and do not account for duty days or longer hours with no more pay. So I have been there and feel the pain. Sorry man some jobs just do not pay what they are worth.

As far as fear of lawsuits think the fact that you have qualified immunity, have police union and city lawyers, and that most people sue the city means that this fear is a tad unfounded. Its very very hard to sue a police officers and even harder to get anything from them directly. So much so that most people will never bother.

As far as feeling unsafe I can get that your job is risky and a hard one. Its understandable when there seems to be a lot of hate that people feel unsafe. However look at it from the flip side. People get killed in no knock wrong house raids and the cops are covered because they acted on good faith and the like. How safe does that make a citizen feel? A concealed carry holder was recently shot and killed after informing the officer he had a CCW and was carrying how safe does that make me feel as a CCW holder? We are always told its polite to inform a cop of the fact that we are carrying but I now see a huge shift in CCW people saying to heck with that I will not get shot for trying to be polite. So while your worry is indeed coming from a justified place please look to it from the other side as well. I will be honest I have a deep mistrust of police officers due to first hand treatment and news reports like the ones listed. But I do also pity the situations you guys are often in. I stand up for good cops where they are justified so know that even those of us with a less then favorable view of the profession know that you guys are humans and do feel for you. (Heck I got family that are retired cops, current cops, and a detective.)

Knight of the Order
Training Master: Jestor
Apprentices: Lama Su, Leah
Just a pop culture Jedi doing what I can
Last edit: 12 Jul 2016 16:39 by MadHatter.
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12 Jul 2016 19:44 - 12 Jul 2016 19:46 #247962 by OB1Shinobi

Silas Mercury wrote: How can you like Donald Trump ??


this is a very good question, and if you are able to leave out the rest of your comment, and look to those who do support trump and ask this question without interrupting them or condemning them for their views, you might actually come to an answer that makes sense

which is not to say that youll agree with them, or that you should or shouldnt agree with them, but if you ask and listen from a place of sincere desire to really just understand where they are coming from,,, you just might actually,,,understand where they are coming from

“As long as you feel that you are the most important thing in the world you cannot really appreciate the world around you. You are like a horse with blinders, all you see is yourself apart from everything else.”
-Don Juan Matus
Last edit: 12 Jul 2016 19:46 by OB1Shinobi.
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12 Jul 2016 20:03 #247963 by Leah Starspectre

OB1Shinobi wrote:

Silas Mercury wrote: How can you like Donald Trump ??


this is a very good question, and if you are able to leave out the rest of your comment, and look to those who do support trump and ask this question without interrupting them or condemning them for their views, you might actually come to an answer that makes sense

which is not to say that youll agree with them, or that you should or shouldnt agree with them, but if you ask and listen from a place of sincere desire to really just understand where they are coming from,,, you just might actually,,,understand where they are coming from


Perhaps a better question would be: "What about Donald Trump's proposed plans and policies do you find engaging and worthy of support? or "What about Donald Trump's platform convinces you that his leadership could help the current culture of violence grow towards better unity and cooperation?"

And I'm interested to know the answer (though if it's too far off topic, feel free to PM me)
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12 Jul 2016 20:53 - 12 Jul 2016 21:54 #247969 by Snowy Aftermath
This political candidate stuff is way off topic. Start a new thread, please.

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Last edit: 12 Jul 2016 21:54 by Snowy Aftermath.
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12 Jul 2016 21:02 - 12 Jul 2016 21:21 #247973 by OB1Shinobi

Miss_Leah wrote:

OB1Shinobi wrote:

Silas Mercury wrote: How can you like Donald Trump ??


this is a very good question, and if you are able to leave out the rest of your comment, and look to those who do support trump and ask this question without interrupting them or condemning them for their views, you might actually come to an answer that makes sense

which is not to say that youll agree with them, or that you should or shouldnt agree with them, but if you ask and listen from a place of sincere desire to really just understand where they are coming from,,, you just might actually,,,understand where they are coming from


Perhaps a better question would be: "What about Donald Trump's proposed plans and policies do you find engaging and worthy of support? or "What about Donald Trump's platform convinces you that his leadership could help the current culture of violence grow towards better unity and cooperation?"

And I'm interested to know the answer (though if it's too far off topic, feel free to PM me)


i might be wrong but it looks like you are wording your questions in a way that reflects your own personal ideas and views

simple is good when you want to understand someone else's ideas and views

ask in a way that doesnt imply there is a wrong answer or give any suggestions of a correct or "good" answer

"why do you like trump?" is fine
you could also ask "what do you like about trump?" or "why do you think trump is the best candidate?"
these are all good questions IF YOUR GOAL IS TO UNDERSTAND THE OTHER PERSON

understanding others does not mean agreeing with them, it means recognizing their perceptions well enough to see how you yourself might make the same choices if you saw the world as they do

it doesnt even mean that you think that its ok to see the world as they do; you might go so far as to decide that they ought to die because of their worldview and their commitment to it

but before you can judge you have to understand, and often my experience has been that when i do take the time to really understand others, even though i disagree with them and sometimes at a fundamental level, i still dont judge them all that harshly for their views

i might talk to them harshly and i might do everything i can to counter their views, but i dont personally begrudge them for being on the other side of an ideological divide

which i think is a useful way for people to interact, and also relevant to the topic

“As long as you feel that you are the most important thing in the world you cannot really appreciate the world around you. You are like a horse with blinders, all you see is yourself apart from everything else.”
-Don Juan Matus
Last edit: 12 Jul 2016 21:21 by OB1Shinobi.

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