The Field, and Lynn McTaggert

I think the issue with any scientific approach to something such as this, is that the Force is something regarded as interpreted through personal subjective perception and belief more than objective hard-fact observation. This is because you can't take something that is regarded as spiritual and cram it down into a rigid scientific view. The scientific method doesn't compress something as open as this, instead it "crops" it down to a very certain, rigid shape of a view, based on what only "absolutely is", and not "what it could be", most of the time, and thereby cutting off many aspects which to many people, are crucial to their personal perception and connection toward it, just for someone else's "scientific proof". (I have no idea if I'm making enough sense, but I'm trying). I do know that "good" science, can only be regarded as good in terms of the nature of the topic at hand - and in this case, "good" science, I think would be regarded as anything that can only present scientific possibilities than scientific "hard facts", simply because something such as the Force very obviously exists beyond our limited knowledge in science.

What did that old man say in that second TEDTall you posted?

Something about "trusting its true, even though we currently lack the science to prove it"...

Something like that, lol... In the first TEDTalk on consciousness...

That is why there should be other material, but only actual science should claim to be such in the curriculum.

You can have all you want on spirituality and mysticism, but let it call itself such. Let philosophers philosophize, and let the scientists discover how the world actually works.

Having both is better, especially since the path of becoming a Jedi is about discovering the truth. Not just personal truth, and certainly not subjective truth alone, though the latter can be helpful in a mental and emotional journey. Some people's minds work differently enough that it is very difficult to box everything off into rational, logical compartments. I understand that.

But you can have someone learn different spiritual traditions, and different philosophies, and find out what they think is best, without having junk science in the curriculum.

So I'm not really sure why it's an issue.

Ty wrote: I understand some people are perfectly happy to seize on a belief just because it feels good to believe it, but that isn't the Jedi way, from what I understand. That is a form of self-deception, and can be dangerous.

Very true. But it is also the way the majority of people think and believe. My comments were not about the "Jedi way" but about an understanding of why people like McTaggart do the things they do, and why people believe them.

My personal perspective is that the "Jedi way" is about self exploration and understanding, in whatever form that takes. Some scientific knowledge doesnt hurt, but its not the only answer.

This curriculum is not for the majority of people. It is for people who want to dedicate themselves to the doctrine of the Jedi.

It is for people who, while they may not be able to think that way naturally, learn to think critically. It is for people who can employ logic, empathy, and the knowledge they have to best solve a situation. That is a form of wisdom.

It is for people who want to master their emotions, and not give into them in any way- whether that is rage on the highway, or an emotion of happiness at finding out something that you already believe is confirmed to be true. Emotions can blind us to the truth- confirmation bias ensures we are delighted at finding any information that agrees with us, and are much more likely to accept any agreeable information than disagreeable, no matter which is actually true.

It may be that some people will never reach that level of mastery- that's fine, I assume that is why there are Apprentice, Jedi Knight, and Jedi Master levels in the organization. But it is, as you said, about the path. And you cannot have a path to wisdom starting by letting people think it is ok to simply accept the first view that comes along. People need to learn to evaluate evidence, think critically, and know what is objectively true.

Only once they have that foundation should they begin researching other things that they can use to learn about the spiritual, more nebulous side of life. Otherwise, you risk letting someone's path be corrupted or misguided by them accepting things that are not true, and then consolidating those beliefs without any real evaluation of evidence.

There's no real issue..

Just chatting...

Now, we have to explore options... So...

I hope everyone is watching these videos, and evaluating, or offering alternatives...

Bitchin' won't solve nothing's....

I hope all of the Knights (hint-hint) are doing justcas I suggested...

Indeed you are right Ty,


But it does not require a scientific approach to achieve that, or to follow the doctrine.


Again, im not disagreeing, just offering a different perspective.

So we want a lesson on someone trying to prove a unified field.... they cannot even work out how gravity works, and that acts like a unified field locally. Whatever result you get is going to be cobbled together in some way. I'd be worried people thought we were trying to teach some actual pseudo-science position on it.

At least coming from such an obvious uninformed source it could have seemed clear it was about the emerging interest in the wider public in 'energy' and spirituality. In fact the heated position against her by some supports that.

So sorry for being late to the party, but what is the purpose of the replacement lesson required? I thought the original lesson was the lesson, warts and all.

If we are going to replace it with some 'scientific' introduction to things which relate to the concept of the Force we could look at Mathematics, Biology or Physics. I actually prefer math (as it relates to both objective and subjective worlds), but the physics approach is fun, albeit fringe/experimental. Biology link's neatly into psychology and emotion but all these are subtle different versions of how individual Jedi might relate to the Force. Remembering the concept of the Force varies between people.

As to her inclusion on personal grounds, I personally think a Jedi should try not to hate anyone, but certainly not promote that hatred... so disagreement with her other practices are also irrelevant to me. That said, there is a lot of interesting stuff out there and I'm always open to making things better
:side:

Something else to consider:

The scientific method works with the process of measuring, dividing, dissecting (a rather male-prinicple approach that has taken us only so far in understanding our world scientifically, until we hit barriers where it doesn't work anymore).

At its most fundamental state, the nature of the Force, as we have come to understand it at this point, is that of unification. Therefore, it can be said that, the path to talking about it, and understanding it in anyway, must be through this approach of unification (which, at least current science, cannot properly fathom because that is not the approach that it relies on). This is why the Force is approached in the spiritual manner, because it not only observes, but even demonstrates on profound levels, the nature of the Force in ways that science cannot, because of the difference in their methods. When working with the tangible, then yes, the scientific method can do some service, but only on the tangible level. But that is a level that only accounts for an indefinitely minuscule amount of truth, probably not even a fraction enough to learn about the nature of the Force properly.

Good point, Adder. And I, for one, have never said I hated her. I'll even give the ground that what she's talking about does have some merit, albeit not really scientific credibility. She may be, or at least have been, a good journalist ... After all, bad journalists don't usually get a column in the Times.

I haven't anything against there being some contemporary scientific theory presented in the IP ; something presented as 'a little we may thing about how the universe works' rather than anything trying to explain the Force. If we come down to trying to explain away the Force scientifically wherein is the wonder of it ?

When things like this are presented as the Force (intentionally or not), it makes any sort of spiritually centred ministry quite ... difficult.

:dry: