The Field, and Lynn McTaggert

Ty wrote: but I do think that there should be a bit of a foundation in science somewhere in the IP.

Why?

Ty wrote: There is nothing in this universe which cannot be understood through the laws of mathematics, though we may not be able to understand it at this time.

Hmm, so, because currently, we can say this about everything we know, this must be true about that which we still have to learn about?

I dont think that logic stands up, lol...

Only because, you dont know that it is true... You can surmise, sure, and I would agree that it does seem logical...

But, it would seem a very unscientific thing to state, isnt it?

Jedi are not about mysticism. A recurring theme in all of the SW literature is they are perceived that way by those who are ignorant of the way things truly work. The Jedi combine some spiritual things with knowledge, and expanding their minds to be able to perceive the world around them, but you could, in the SW universe, prove the force exists through science. There were machines that used the force, and detected it.

I am unfamilar with the fiction, outside of the movies..

How did they prove the force, scientifically?

I have an idea what you mean, but, I dont want to presume...

There is no reason it should be different in our world. We should be willing to admit we do not know what the force is, instead of being wishy-washy and saying that it's something that is individual to each person, because it isn't. If something exists outside of yourself, then it has its own characteristics and properties that make it an objectively separate thing. It may be perceived differently by different people, but it does not actually change just because they see it differently. It's similar to the old hindu parable of the blind men holding different parts of the elephant.

We do say it is individual... And, means something different to each person...

But, what we mean is, that we each experience it differntly...

You know what hot sauce is, right?

Well, lets you and I keep tasting hotter and hotter sauces until one of us says "Its too hot", and the other says, "No, this is more like salsa, lets keep tasting"....

We will all experience it differently, and that is how, and why, we say it is individual...

Is what I experience, and 'according to hoyle' force? Well, to me it is...

Caution, language gets rough....
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There is clearly some kind of energy that pervades everything. We do not know exactly what it is, or how to find it quite yet, but we will. Eventually, we will be able to see it, examine it, manipulate it. We do not know if it has consciousness, but based on what we know of consciousness, that requires a brain, so that is unlikely.

Why is it a bad thing to point all this out?

I dont think anyone said it was...

Im having fun...

steamboat28 wrote:

Ty wrote: but I do think that there should be a bit of a foundation in science somewhere in the IP.

Why?

Why not?

Do you feel it has less value than anything else in the IP?

Is it held with some disdain within these halls?

It seems more than a few would like it to be a part of the IP, so there is a demand.

So the why answers itself

Certainly the scientific method is a better baseline than hiding behind the "Truth from a certain point of view." or more ambiguous "personal experience."



Or is it because it is more demanding upon ones theories, thoughts, and beliefs?

One thing I can say I have noticed as a trend in Totjo, there isnt a good amount of skepticism or peer review in regards to growth.

So how can one say one has really grown at all? Especially within the paradigm of Totjo, or the lessons of the IP?

steamboat28 wrote:

Ty wrote: but I do think that there should be a bit of a foundation in science somewhere in the IP.

Why?

Because, simply put, the scientific method is the best tool we have for gaining knowledge on new topics.



Jestor, the logic stands up. Just because those before Sir Isaac Newton could not have done calculus, because it was not known until Newton invented it, did not mean the mathematical truths that Newton discovered were not always there. Mathematics are discovered much the same way a glacier over the next hill would have been discovered by early explorers.

In the Star Wars fiction, the Force actually was a field of energy. There were some races that used it as an energy source, similar to the way we use nuclear power.
Other races built scientific equipment to measure the force, which are generally employed to find Jedi and murder them, in most of the canon. The Force in the SW literature is not alive, and it does not have a conscious will. It is an energy field that pervades most living things. I say most, because there are actually some very explicit exceptions.
I couldn't tell you how they proved the force existed scientifically, because a book about that would have been boring as hell, so no one wrote one. But they certainly had to have done, before they could do all the other things they did.
Making machines that use the force requires knowledge of science as well as the Force, and so would have needed to fit the Force into a scientific framework.

Which isn't hard. People here often seem to think of science almost as a boogeyman, but all science is, is a way of thinking. It dictates that we be open to any possibility until we have proof for one over another, and then to go with what seems most likely. It dictates that if we declare something to be the truth, then it must be verifiably the truth by other parties. It dictates that we have evidence for claims, and that we answer questions as best we know how by seeking answers, instead of handwaving and saying it is the fault of a higher power, the supernatural, or the force.

Science does not refute anything without proof, but it also makes no claims on anything until it has some way of examining it. But too many people take this to mean that because science cannot currently be used to examine something, we never will be able to. This is plainly a rediculous assertion based on the historical record. We didn't always have telescopes, microscopes, or the CERN supercollider. But we do now, and all of these things help us see something we never could have dreamed of before they existed.

You don't have to say that the force is scientific in nature, because that's a misnomer. But the best way to know something about anything is through scientific enquiry, since, as humans, our "gut notions" are extremely fallible. We can't even trust our memories, for heaven's sake! People can be made to remember things that never happened, or forget things that did, and people do things like remember dreams as reality all the time. If you want to be certain of something, the best way we currently know of is through scientific inquiry.

Because of the Doctrine's structure and the way of the Jedi as a whole, throughout the books and other philosophies that are similar, science should be included- and not junk science, but real science. If anyone actually cares about the many parts of the doctrine and the fictional Jedi order's principles, a great portion of it was teaching- and to teach, you must know. To know, you must have first sought out that knowledge.

Until someone can come up with a way that works better than science (it sure as hell isn't "it feels right to me, therefore it must be true"), science should be included in the IP.

Where can I find out more about this thing called... science! :lol:

It's not magic or anything, its just good process for describing the parameters of repeat-ability. It does not handle complexity too neatly, and the brain from which we seem to experience is very complex on its own as a physical structure, not to mention its capabilities regarding awareness. Science is a great tool to forge pieces of a larger puzzle, and the more we have, when put in the right order, shows as much more then any single piece on its own. Unfortunately its so complex that by comparison even large pieces put together can deceive as to the real image it is part of. Now I dont know what we are talking about either!!!!

Ty wrote:

steamboat28 wrote:

Ty wrote: but I do think that there should be a bit of a foundation in science somewhere in the IP.

Why?

Because, simply put, the scientific method is the best tool we have for gaining knowledge on new topics.

No disagreement on this point...

Just sayin'....

Jestor, the logic stands up. Just because those before Sir Isaac Newton could not have done calculus, because it was not known until Newton invented it, did not mean the mathematical truths that Newton discovered were not always there. Mathematics are discovered much the same way a glacier over the next hill would have been discovered by early explorers.

It dictates that we be open to any possibility until we have proof for one over another

Science does not refute anything without proof, but it also makes no claims on anything until it has some way of examining it. But too many people take this to mean that because science cannot currently be used to examine something, we never will be able to. This is plainly a rediculous assertion based on the historical record.

Well, my point, backed by a couple of your quotes, was that because the "XYZ method" (of a science that can shed further light on the questions we can't yet answer, or be aware of the particulars of the problem solving ) is not yet understood, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist....

I wouldn't say Newton invented calculus, but rather, defined, and brought something already in existence (that's what you said, right?) into the light....

In the Star Wars fiction, the Force actually was a field of energy. There were some races that used it as an energy source, similar to the way we use nuclear power.
Other races built scientific equipment to measure the force, which are generally employed to find Jedi and murder them, in most of the canon. The Force in the SW literature is not alive, and it does not have a conscious will. It is an energy field that pervades most living things. I say most, because there are actually some very explicit exceptions.
I couldn't tell you how they proved the force existed scientifically, because a book about that would have been boring as hell, so no one wrote one. But they certainly had to have done, before they could do all the other things they did.
Making machines that use the force requires knowledge of science as well as the Force, and so would have needed to fit the Force into a scientific framework.

Well...

Its fiction, lol...

So, for all we know, the machines that "used" the force for an energy source just didn't have the technology to measure another form of yet undiscovered radiation..

Plus, its fiction ....

We can't argue science, and use the fiction as the bar we are shooting for...

My thinking, anyway...

Which isn't hard. People here often seem to think of science almost as a boogeyman, but all science is, is a way of thinking. It dictates that we be open to any possibility until we have proof for one over another, and then to go with what seems most likely. It dictates that if we declare something to be the truth, then it must be verifiably the truth by other parties. It dictates that we have evidence for claims, and that we answer questions as best we know how by seeking answers, instead of handwaving and saying it is the fault of a higher power, the supernatural, or the force.

No, we don't think science a boogyman, but, we don't discount our feeling, and understandings, just because science has yet to.prove it...

I'm gonna throw Newton's name in here, and say like his defining calculus....

We just haven't defined it....

As your next quote shows...

Science does not refute anything without proof, but it also makes no claims on anything until it has some way of examining it. But too many people take this to mean that because science cannot currently be used to examine something, we never will be able to. This is plainly a rediculous assertion based on the historical record. We didn't always have telescopes, microscopes, or the CERN supercollider. But we do now, and all of these things help us see something we never could have dreamed of before they existed.

Khaos wrote: Certainly the scientific method is a better baseline than hiding behind the "Truth from a certain point of view." or more ambiguous "personal experience."

Ty wrote: Because, simply put, the scientific method is the best tool we have for gaining knowledge on new topics.

No, I mean why specifically in the IP? Are we assuming that a mostly-adult membership on a website on the INTERNET doesn't have access to any other ways of understanding science than the IP? Would you teach science in a school for the performing arts, or a seminary? Should basic science be (re)taught in programs for plumbing and welding certificates?

I'm not discounting science (except to admit that it has its limits). I'm simply saying that the IP is the place for foundational teachings of TOTJO-style Jediism, not a remedial chemistry course or a physics lecture.

steamboat28 wrote:

Khaos wrote: Certainly the scientific method is a better baseline than hiding behind the "Truth from a certain point of view." or more ambiguous "personal experience."

Ty wrote: Because, simply put, the scientific method is the best tool we have for gaining knowledge on new topics.

No, I mean why specifically in the IP? Are we assuming that a mostly-adult membership on a website on the INTERNET doesn't have access to any other ways of understanding science than the IP? Would you teach science in a school for the performing arts, or a seminary? Should basic science be (re)taught in programs for plumbing and welding certificates?

I'm not discounting science (except to admit that it has its limits). I'm simply saying that the IP is the place for foundational teachings of TOTJO-style Jediism, not a remedial chemistry course or a physics lecture.

And why when I say something "for dummies" when we talk about the sciences...

Believe it or not, I've already had someone watching this thread (jokingly?) somewhat say that if we brought in science that was too difficult, then they weren't sure they would understand....

And, that does go for me too, lol, seriously....

I didn't study science past high school, and back then, the cold war was wrapping up, cell phones were only for the rich, and Pluto was still a planet....

So kept that in mind....

Then, I kept my brain in a chemical coma periodically throught the time,

Not a lot of self improvement going on for me then,but O.M.G., the experiences I had, lol..

The IP is not for in-depth study, could we put something more credible next to, or instead of, McTaggart, I guess so, :lol:...

I'm not even strong on the sciences in my apprenticeships, I'll leave that to brighter minds...

I teach, perception, acceptance, love, laughs, and cookies... So sayth, jestor...

Just not necessarily in that order...

Maybe a little science too...

Jestor wrote :

The IP is not for in-depth study, could we put something more credible next to, or instead of, McTaggart, I guess so, :lol:...

Now there's a thought ....

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

:blink:

... I need to go to the toilet.

What always amazes me is how so many people think that the IP is our doctrine and what we live by.

It is not. The IP is a tool to open people’s minds to new ways of thinking, new ideas affording people the opportunity to explore things they may have never considered before.

If anyone is confused as to what the Doctrine is (the doctrine we strive to live by), here is a Link to Doctrine

I think if people spent as much time discussing the lessons in the IP as much as they discuss how they would like things replace or have their opinions acted on then the individual might make more progress towards understanding.

Wescli Wardest wrote: What always amazes me is how so many people think that the IP is our doctrine and what we live by.

It is not.

I think many people have mentioned before that this is never, ever clearly stated, and is therefore exceedingly confusing. Perhaps you should clear that up in the next iteration of the IP.

The IP is pretty basic stuff, and at least for me, is all material I'm mostly familiar with. The only reason I haven't completed the entire kit and kaboodle already is because my internet is a pain, and downloads all the material at roughly a rate of one hour of video per day. That, and even though I've read ahead, so to speak, I still want to post everything in order.

When I complain about the IP, it isn't just to complain. It is because it doesn't do it's stated purpose, really. It does help as a tool for self reflection, but I wanted to take the IP to learn more about what Jedi believe, about the order- about what the Force might actually be in daily life, other than a metaphysical concept. About how Jedi actually function in society, and what they do to follow the doctrine.

It doesn't help you understand the doctrine well enough. It doesn't help you understand why the pursuit of knowledge is important, it doesn't help you understand why empathy is important, and it doesn't help you understand the harm unbridled emotions can do- at least not directly.
Can science do all that? No. But a few very basic videos on science, similar to what I linked before, certainly could help illustrate our place in the universe, and why the pursuit of knowledge is a beautiful thing.

My complaint isn't about the IP as a whole, though, because I'm fairly sure most of the things I wanted to learn from the IP come later down the line. So, my complaint is just about The Field. Always has been.
Just McTaggert. If the IP is such a highly personal thing, and should contain only things to help you discover what you think the force is, it should have more than just one book by one crazy lady. Keep her in, if you like- but point out that her science is crap, and stick something else in there too.

I just don't think lies, or the work of such a vile woman, have a place in the instructional manual of a religion built on knowledge, wisdom, and empathy.

Can things in the IP be changed? Sure. We talk about it more than people may realize.

Adding disclaimers and being more clear in purpose can be done, but things take time. We try to be very careful in how things are worded as well. We even go as far as to talk about the use of a single word in the language of a doc.

I doubt we will ever get things perfect the first go around and will usually have to amend things over and over as we go. That is part of being a living religion.

And the IP does cover the doctrine once the individual has gotten far enough along to reach that point. But I doubt the IP will ever be fully comprehensible for the individual trying to reach some greater understanding of how the doctrine is a part of daily life. That is why we have apprenticeships. And even that will probably not get everyone to the same point. Learning is a continual endeavor that lasts a lifetime. And our views, ideas and opinions will change throughout the course of our lives.

And no matter how many times someone is called crazy or vile, that will not discredit any one work. I only look at the work and for truth in that work.

I did not create the IP. I even expressed my own distastes for The Field when I went through the IP. That does not mean I found nothing of value in the work.

No one’s concerns fall on deaf ears. I want to assure everyone of that. But I also want people to realize that things do not happen quickly all the time. As long as I have been here the Council has taken time to consider and discuss everything before acting on it.

Some say that politics is the art of compromise. One of my favorite people said that politics is the art of principal, compromise invites corruption. I believe that to be true. But when we talk to each other and truly try to understand each other’s views and way of thinking, then an outcome which is beneficial to all can be reached. It just takes time.

Wescli Wardest wrote: And the IP does cover the doctrine once the individual has gotten far enough along to reach that point. But I doubt the IP will ever be fully comprehensible for the individual trying to reach some greater understanding of how the doctrine is a part of daily life.

Wescli Wardest wrote: That is why we have apprenticeships.

I'd like to make two points here, really quickly:

1. The fact that the IP covers the doctrine, barely and only at the end, seems about as backward a thing as you can make it. This makes zero sense to me for numerous reasons, not least of which the fact that the Doctrine seems to be a foundational part of TotJO that (in any other faith or religion) would come right at the front so you know what you're getting into. It also makes no sense to me because you don't teach the Doctrine in the IP, you just ask our interpretations of it. Which is fine, but that means that the Doctrine isn't really a doctrine, it's just a bunch of phrases we all know but don't agree on.
2. Everyone has this assumption that everyone at TotJO is here to be a Knight. I think we forget that the IP and training/ranking courses are entirely optional, and that some people might be here just for the congregational aspect. Those sorts of people (to draw an analogy, the kind of people that are in a church every sunday to learn, but not volunteer, lead, or rise through the ranks of the clergy) are Jedi, too. And if we relegate teaching to the IP and Apprenticeships, those people will never learn anything more about this organization than what they can find us arguing about on the forums, and that's not okay with me. While maybe they shouldn't be handed everything on a silver platter, "plain" Members are still members, and they should be treated like it, not relegated to being second-class citizens who are forgotten about because they may not have the drive, desire, or time for the IP while the rest of us are on the quest for a spiritual enlightenment or a fancy title.

steamboat28 wrote:

Wescli Wardest wrote: What always amazes me is how so many people think that the IP is our doctrine and what we live by.

It is not.

I think many people have mentioned before that this is never, ever clearly stated, and is therefore exceedingly confusing. Perhaps you should clear that up in the next iteration of the IP.

Well, the doctrine link is at the top of the site, and does not take you to.the studies...

And the studies link at the bottom of the site, does not tale you to the doctrine....

So, I would think that speaks loudly... lol...

Apparently not...

But, then too, people don't know how/when/where to do the oath...

How/why/when do I become an apprentice....

How/when/where do I become a member... and "do I HAVE to fill out an app?" No, no you do not... "but I want to join" well, then you might choose to fill one out, sure....

I'd say some people need to use their head for more than a hat rack, but hat racks may confound them...

I expect it of children, children don't read, they act... They don't think, they act...

But of adults who want to be Jedi?

To move with focus, purpose and determination?

lol, man my inbox for a while... lol...

We cant cover it all...

But, if its that difficult of a concept, maybe we do need a disclaimer....

(Will a council member please create a sticky in council for these things we need to discuss?)

Remember, the more you folks add, the longer things take....

Its not like we don't have other stuff "temple wise" to do as well...

I processed two/three apps yesterday, 5 more came in... I'm losing ground, lol...

I like that we do not “teach” the doctrine. This is not a re-education program after all.

I also think that it is good to have it nearer the end of the IP so that the individual has a chance to stop thinking the way they thought when they first come here and are open to the possibility of a different interpretation of the doctrine. The IP is a tool to help people explore themselves and consider other option than the standard line of social thought provides.

No matter what rank someone holds, wisdom can be found anywhere. One just has to be willing to see it for what it is.

steamboat28 wrote:

1. The fact that the IP covers the doctrine, barely and only at the end, seems about as backward a thing as you can make it. This makes zero sense to me for numerous reasons, not least of which the fact that the Doctrine seems to be a foundational part of TotJO that (in any other faith or religion) would come right at the front so you know what you're getting into. It also makes no sense to me because you don't teach the Doctrine in the IP, you just ask our interpretations of it. Which is fine, but that means that the Doctrine isn't really a doctrine, it's just a bunch of phrases we all know but don't agree on.

Do you feel that someone's interpretation of the doctrine would be no more informed, after they have learned the ideas discussed by Watts and Campbell?

And in any case, are we here to "teach" the doctrine? Who here is apt enough to properly teach something that represents one's own individually personal path?

I always figured that the one's learning are also the ones teaching the rest of us as they discover within and for themselves.

Edit: Wes totally ninja'd me!

No matter what rank someone holds, wisdom can be found anywhere. One just has to be willing to see it for what it is.

Yes, and you can replace wisdom with B.S, and it is still pertinent.

I cant see your logic about re-education. Most often I see phrases about un-learning, teaching perspective, acceptance, and a myriad of other things.

There is also the fact that people come here to become Jedi.

Not all, but many.

Now, if being a Jedi requires no education, much less re-education, then why the IP, apprenticeships, or anything of the like?

What then is it to be Jedi?

You see, you can say that you expect more from adults, as Jestor mentioned, and yet, you do have a tendency to send mixed signals.

Which is obviously the case, as its apparently happened more than once, so you could say its them, and yet...it could also be you...

Just sayin.

I completely agree about the BS!

Re-education Program is a term used to describe the political ideology used in Re-education camps.
Reeducation camp is the official title given to the prison camps operated by the government of Vietnam following the end of the Vietnam War.
The term 'reeducation camp' is also used to refer to prison camps operated by the People's Republic of China during the Cultural Revolution, or to the laogai and laojiao camps currently operated by the Chinese government. The theory underlying such camps is the Maoist theory of reforming counter-revolutionaries into socialist citizens by re-education through labor.


I agree that mixed signals happen quite often. Too often. And is probably the product of assumption making. IE, I assumed people would get the use of re-education and not teaching people they way we want them to think. :laugh:

You seemed to assume I was referring to teaching people period!?!? I guess.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0rSmxsVHPE

This video discusses using meditation to "tap into" the field of cosmic energy. It can not be measured scientifically as of yet, but it can be experienced. That doesn't make it pseudo science any more than Stephen Hawking, who can't even feed himself much less scientifically measure a black hole's dimensions with mechanical equipment, THEORIZING about the existence of event horizons.

Science and Spirituality BOTH use theoretical speculation to describe reality. SOME things in science can be measured mechanically, while other concepts can not. That makes them no less acceptable.

The Field discussed by McTaggert will one day be recognized as the same substance known to Einstein as the fabric of Space-Time, to proponents of String Theory as the quantum field, and to Jedi as The Force.

While the existent literature of Star Wars describes the Force as a scientifically provable substance, it also teaches that Jedi use their "feelings" to detect and utilize it. They do not take out Force Extractors and generate repulsion blasts from wristbands. They "Conduct" the Force through their bodies and "Channel" its power into devices like Lightsabers and Starships. Frankly, it surprises me to see such staunch defenders of science here at all, being that this is a temple built upon a faith inspired by a work of fiction about a group of psychic warriors who channel cosmic energy through their minds and bodies. :laugh:

http://www.nbcnews.com/science/stephen-hawking-shakes-theory-again-black-holes-are-actually-gray-2D12001605