The Field, and Lynn McTaggert

I chuckled out loud!

Way to go!

Well, until Ty pointed out other fallicies in her thoughts, for all I know, her theories are the difference between scientists...

From an uneducated pov, it telex with my own feelings on a gut level...

The only real argument I heard about her (that I remember, I'm sure someone will show me I'm wrong, lol) was that her science/math/whatever, was wrong... Which is how experts in any field usually speak...:lol:...

And, I'm not sure the Council is smart enough, they still have me on it....

That's why I ask Ty for a better example, and something sort of easy... Easy for a guy with the same degrees you have (too much bar philosophy, lol) no schoolin'....

I need it really dumbed down...:lol:

Someone once told me that they could win any argument because they knew how to debate so well. Fancy words, misdirection, poking holes in statements, these are all good for winning an argument. But winning does not address the issue.

I don't think I can sit through listening to all of The Field. I am familiar with Lynne McTaggert, and while I would not go so far as to say I hate her, I have nothing but the deepest levels of contempt for that woman.

We are slow in Council. That's just how it is. And I doubt that is going to change any time soon. So to address your initial question...

Is it necessary to complete every single part of it?

The IP is for your benefit. Work what you will. But, to enter into an apprenticeship the IP is required to be completed in its entirety.

steamboat28 wrote:

Gisteron wrote: Rather than testing people for their critical thinking skills...how about introducing people to critical thinking instead?

This, exactly. If I were re-organizing the IP, I'd add in some modules on critical thinking and logic (and "God Wants You Dead" as non-optional material) before ever introducing Watts or Campbell, simply because it helps one to better understand their own worldview, and discuss it with others in a sane, rational, consistent fashion, rather than the shouting and talking-over-one-another and disagreement on glosses and meanings that usually occur anytime two people in the Temple disagree.

Ren wrote: I've been particularly opposed to the inclusion of that thing during my years on the council, but the evil witch has her supporters here. It's sad to see some of the newer knights believe that the IP content is somehow at the core of jedi teachings when it really isn't.

Love it or hate it (I choose the latter, personally), "The Field" is a very important way to close out Exercise 4 as it currently stands. It introduces some interesting points, and mistakenly hides them behind a misunderstanding of science. This combination of aspects is a very educational one, and I think it should remain, even though it's composed of 85% fecal matter.

Furthermore, I'm going to build a couchfort neighboring Gisteron's pillow fortress, because I personally think that if the IP has nothing to do with core Jedi teachings, it needs to be utterly replaced by things that are core Jedi teachings. There is no sense having an introductory course that functions as a test if it doesn't also provide foundational material necessary to the continuing of training. If the IP serves no purpose but as a grand test of who does and doesn't "belong" here, why not just pose a simple question at the gate and turn away all those who answer foolishly? If the IP teaches nothing, it is the same process, but requiring much more effort, and returning greater frustration.

I havent read this whole thread... My main issue with her is that she makes ("good") money by exploiting basic human weaknesses. the book itself is probably one of her better works, but still falls short.

Gisteron is right, and in fact, I tried to implement such changes on a new IP I was working on. But some people objected. So, the new IP just became yet another annoying project I didn't want to spare time for.

I don't know who can access it, but here are the links to what I had done so far:

http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/component/content/article/51-new-ip/1951-introduction
http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/component/content/article/51-new-ip/1962-lesson-i
http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/component/content/article/51-new-ip/2010-lesson-2
http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/component/content/article/51-new-ip/2011-lesson-3
http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/component/content/article/51-new-ip/2012-lesson-4
http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/component/content/article/51-new-ip/2022-lesson-5
http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/component/content/article/51-new-ip/2023-lesson-6
http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/component/content/article/51-new-ip/2024-lesson-7
http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/component/content/article/51-new-ip/2026-lesson-8
http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/component/content/article/51-new-ip/2028-lesson-9

Thanks Ren....

Akkarin has revitalized your call to arms on it, and is meeting the same road blocks...

Its not we are against the changes, but, how can I agree with something that I'm uniformed about? (Jiddu to name one, and I don't wantvto derail, so I will stop...... I'm just learning about him...)

The IP has gotten us this far, and we will make changes...

But, you know me, if you want an answer now, its "no"... As I am uninformed enough to make a decision to.implement a change...

Maybe Akkarin will have more patience with me, lolol...

tzb wrote: Sorry to butt in, but...

tzb wrote: how about someone write an essay on different conceptions of and explanations for the Force (a little like the essays in clerical training), giving a breakdown of the more common ideas? Off the back of this brief breakdown, you could provide links to a variety of texts (including The Field, perhaps the Tao Te Ching, perhaps a more general look at prana/qi/reiki and others) for each view, and ask Novices to write a minimum-word-counted essay on both one they feel convincing, and one they feel farthest from their personal conception of the Force.

That way you're still encouraging interaction with the idea, still asking people to look at their own credulity, but not prescribing a single specific definition for critique.

When I say "someone" to write the essay, you could ask people who hold those views at the Temple to write a few paragraphs, then put the best of those together for the lesson. That way you're representing the actual range of beliefs of the Temple, including no doubt some who hold The Field in esteem.

And just as an example of what I mean, you could ask Novices to write a minimum of 500 words on the one they like, and min 250 words on the one they don't... and of course if they feel like it they can write about all of the ideas.

[/2c]

This is the thing we need, from my perspective. An IP crafted by Jedi for Jedi, supplemented with all the things currently in the IP and the Library.

steamboat28 wrote:

tzb wrote: Sorry to butt in, but...

tzb wrote: how about someone write an essay on different conceptions of and explanations for the Force (a little like the essays in clerical training), giving a breakdown of the more common ideas? Off the back of this brief breakdown, you could provide links to a variety of texts (including The Field, perhaps the Tao Te Ching, perhaps a more general look at prana/qi/reiki and others) for each view, and ask Novices to write a minimum-word-counted essay on both one they feel convincing, and one they feel farthest from their personal conception of the Force.

That way you're still encouraging interaction with the idea, still asking people to look at their own credulity, but not prescribing a single specific definition for critique.

When I say "someone" to write the essay, you could ask people who hold those views at the Temple to write a few paragraphs, then put the best of those together for the lesson. That way you're representing the actual range of beliefs of the Temple, including no doubt some who hold The Field in esteem.

And just as an example of what I mean, you could ask Novices to write a minimum of 500 words on the one they like, and min 250 words on the one they don't... and of course if they feel like it they can write about all of the ideas.

[/2c]

This is the thing we need, from my perspective. An IP crafted by Jedi for Jedi, supplemented with all the things currently in the IP and the Library.

It is buddy...

Where do you think the IP came from?

Or, do you mean what we discussed a few posts back?

steamboat28 wrote: This is the thing we need, from my perspective. An IP crafted by Jedi for Jedi, supplemented with all the things currently in the IP and the Library.

I don't know if this is exactly what you mean but...

The IP and indeed all of our learning should be crafted by the best and most relevant material we can find to teach what we want. We shouldn't do it because the material is made by a Jedi, it being made by a Jedi should always be coincidental.

Indeed using it just because it's made by a Jedi is a form of discrimination.

Jestor wrote: It is buddy...

Where do you think the IP came from?

Or, do you mean what we discussed a few posts back?

Akkarin wrote: I don't know if this is exactly what you mean but...

The IP and indeed all of our learning should be crafted by the best and most relevant material we can find to teach what we want. We shouldn't do it because the material is made by a Jedi, it being made by a Jedi should always be coincidental.

Indeed using it just because it's made by a Jedi is a form of discrimination.

What I mean to say is that I think that, given the unique interpretations of the material currently presented, the Temple should "write its own textbooks" for core subjects, and use the material found in the current IP and the library as "required additional reading material" for the purpose of helping offset the [strike]bullshit [/strike] wisdom and transcendent understanding that will undoubtedly be spewed by some of us in the core material.

I've got to admit, it's really frustrating knowing I've and other people have pointed out that none of the field is scientifically accurate and then read that there are some people stating, we never knew this was scientifically inaccurate until we read this post.

Of all the material in the IP, I originally felt like The Field was the weakest (God Wants You Dead being my choice for the strongest). However, looking back, I appreciate it for encouraging me to examine ideas more critically and to look beyond the surface of things. It inspired me to come to my own conclusions about what Jediism and the Force are.

Even as someone who believes in certain forms of psychic phenomena, I found roughly half of McTaggart's comments lacking logic and a basic comprehension of contemporary science. That said, the core idea that she attempts to express in The Field isn't so bad, and I feel that it's largely the essence of her work that we're meant to take from the lesson.

No matter what a Jedi thinks of The Field, it definitely sparks some interesting conversations, and I think I'd miss those if it were removed from the IP.

Vesha wrote: I've got to admit, it's really frustrating knowing I've and other people have pointed out that none of the field is scientifically accurate and then read that there are some people stating, we never knew this was scientifically inaccurate until we read this post.

All I can tell you is we may not have heard you then...

Our brains being in different modes, or not understanding....

Dont be frustrated that it didnt happen then, be relieved it is being discussed now...

Knowing me, and the fact I had this very conversation with Wescli when he was doing the IP, did I ask you to provide something better? I do that a lot...

Just as I did with Ty....

(Not aimed at anyone, but at this whole topic of the lesson, and of things 'not being right')
We know we are not always right, but, come on, dont tell me its broke, I can see that... Help me fix it...

Offer suggestions, offer ideas, even Ren, a member of Council at the time, tried to do something about 'The Field", and either he gave up, not having the patience to contiune the fight, or more pressing matters arose...

One person complains? Ten?

How about all of those who did not complain? More people had done the Ip without any qualms about McTaggart, and now the tides are turning, and she and her psuedo science is under fire, and enough people have listened, or are now listening...

I have heard a complaint about Campbell too... SHould we remove it? I mean, One person complained.. Or, should we wait till we get 5 complaints, 10 complaints, 50 complaints...



Jusst being silly, and slightly difficult... lol...

SteamBoat, toot-tooted, and wrote: technically, that's untrue. According to tradition (and accepted by law in the US), as a religious organization TotJO is free to 1) ordain ministers 2) according to a course of study they have chosen, 3) and award degrees based upon those courses of study. While this means that the TotJO Seminary is not (truthfully cannot, since it's the only seminary in its denomination) accredited itself in the traditional sense, but everyone who is recognized as a Knight (potential training master) and/or who has gone through the seminary is according to the definition of accreditation found in the OED.

That makes everybody that outranks an Apprentice perfectly "accredited" for such a task.

Sure we could... But we are back to the "pulling each others light saber" joke again...

We have some professional people here, who hopefully will lend a little credibility to our ways, lol...

or, 50 years of living the life, that will help too, :lol:

What I mean to say is that I think that, given the unique interpretations of the material currently presented, the Temple should "write its own textbooks" for core subjects, and use the material found in the current IP and the library as "required additional reading material" for the purpose of helping offset the bullshit wisdom and transcendent understanding that will undoubtedly be spewed by some of us in the core material.

Ive seen Jedi training material, written by Jedi, and to be quite honest, I prefer what we got going here... What they had was ok, but, just not for me... Who the heck are these people to tell me anything? At least here, I know these writers and authors... Have heard of them, or can google them... Jestor? who the f is that, why do I care what he says?

The formal teaching/training ability of our leaders (the community) is lacking... Im no scholar, and while I am actually a martial arts instructor, my true lack of teaching credentials means that I am no better than anyone else as a teacher...

Most of us left Christianity, and they are HUGE!

I mean, GOD wrote their book, and we decided it wasnt true? or left something to be desired? So, who does this Jestor think he is?

They spend years going to schools to prove to themsleves what they say, and trust in their higher-ups...

And we think we are just going to write up som stuff?

hahah...

It is the same problem I have with our holiday calendar... This stuff generally grows naturally, not BOOM here it is...

No harm in discussing this stuff, Im all for discussion, but people have to remember thant when this thread turns cold, that McTaggart may still be in the IP... She may not be either, but, she may be....

And may be until such time as enough Mctaggart haters, or more scientific people, get on the council...

or, we may discuss this right here until it happens ina week or so....

Ready? Set? Go!!!!

:lol: :silly: :lol:

I may be in the minority here, but I did not mind the Field. I understand that Ty has questions about her ethics (as well as those of Deepak Chopra, according to another thread) and I can respect that opinion. Though I do not share it, despite the fact that I dont agree with many of her stances, the vaccine issue in particular, but its is still her opinion and belief which she is entitled to. Its the way in which she understands the world, Deepak too, whether its not correct or not scientific, its her truth.

What Taggart did for me was help me start to look at research myself, something I had never done, as well as start to ask some of our more scientific members to explain things to me. And while I understand the research she covered is not always "good" science, she DID say that she was only a journalist exploring studies she found interesting. As did I. They were a starting point for me on a topic Id never considered.

I can definitely understand where you are coming from, Brenna, but in my mind, it is better to find things that intrigue people and are good science, then get people seeking for answers through bad science. I think the videos I have below do that.
I think part of the problem is that, when it comes to the possibility of the Force, we don't -have- any concrete scientific answers.

We will by the time I'm an old man, but right now, it's the most interesting and expanding field of physics- the art of trying to figure out just how the world works at small levels, and how that relates to the origins of life, how we're all connected, and other things.

After all, we are all made of the same matter. Everything in the universe is just made up of different quantities of the same particles.

I did find an excellent video on a sort of introduction to all of these ideas, presented very well.

The Universe- Michio Kaku
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NbBjNiw4tk

That would be an excellent groundwork for learning about the basics of physics and our universe. I'd say something like that should be the basic mandatory study, along with perhaps an article on what "The Force" means to the different people on the site and another video or two that are more advanced, like the one I linked earlier or the one below on string theory. Then we can have a bunch of reading and links for people who want to learn on their own.
It would also be good to have a few things on critical thinking and choice, and how we see the world. For these, I'm thinking perhaps a TED talk on how we do not make choices the way we think we do, and Neil Degrasse Tyson on A Cosmic Perspective.

Perhaps optionally there can be one or two talks on pseudoscience, and the dangers of it, and how to spot it?

The force is not an unscientific idea- the idea that there are particles or organisms that would allow us to, by living in our body, interact with an energy field is remarkably similar to nanotechnology. The Force itself sounds a great deal like a unified theory of everything- if it were possible to be truly in tune with it, you could hear the heartbeat of the universe, so to speak. While it is possible some people can do this, mostly, everything we do is contained within our own brain matter, and we could not prove otherwise.

So I think some ideas about various religions and Mythologies like Campbell do have their place, as well as perhaps some things on the benefits of meditation and spirituality, but when it comes to an actual physical Force energy that can be manipulated, we should stick to science- and not be afraid to say so when we truly don't know the answer to something.

That should, I think, be one of the primary differences with Jedi and other major religions. There should be nothing wrong with Jedi, as seekers of knowledge and wisdom, admitting they do not have an answer. That is how we grow, after all.

Michio Kaku on Our Future, String Field Theory, and The Multiverse:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxP8UpPgiSM

A Cosmic Perspective, by Neil Degrasse Tyson:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pshjHsyog0M

Choice:
http://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwartz_on_the_paradox_of_choice.html

With all due respect Jestor, I posted the introduction to the new IP at the beginning of february 2012.

That's two years ago.

I posted the jiddu video, and its transcript on youtube. Interested members watched it and (apparently) thought it was better than the Alan Watts video.

All the feedback i got from you were complaints about how everything was being replaced, with you asking me to put it back in.
So yea, the field is still in there although we can have better, campbell is still there even though he's a bit of a dynosaur, watts is still there even though many preferred Jiddu... So most of my additions ended up as a bonus exercises.





lesson 5 is about free thought, and has "god wants you dead" as the main exercise and Carl Sagan's "science as a candle in the dark".

Ty wrote: I can definitely understand where you are coming from, Brenna, but in my mind, it is better to find things that intrigue people and are good science, then get people seeking for answers through bad science. I think the videos I have below do that.
I think part of the problem is that, when it comes to the possibility of the Force, we don't -have- any concrete scientific answers.

Which is sort of my point. People have been connecting with, and using what we call the force for thousands of years with no concrete scientific answers. The fact that you (and others) have a passion for finding the "correct" science, does not change the fact that people have "nonscientific" experience of it.

And in terms of "good" science and "bad" science, im sure that the researchers conducting the "bad" science, are just as sure of its validity as those who conduct "good" science. Perception and belief.

You can think a tree is a cat, but that doesn't make it true.

Good science requires certain things- it requires you to make sure that you control for different possibilities, so that you end up with an answer that can make sense. It needs to be repeatable. It needs to be verifiable.

These things are not something that can be argued, it's how the scientific method works. And the scientific method -does- work. People who do not follow it, but call their results science, need to be avoided- so we label that bad or junk science.


As for people connecting with the force... they have been expanding their mental faculties, and learning to control the relationship between mind and body. But that is still mostly internal- I wouldn't quite call it the force, since most things that are attributed to Ki and the like are able to be replicated by people who don't believe in anything of the sort. It's simply mind/body control.

Science is improvement- this is a good thing. We have learned about improvements in every field, and so why can we not improve what you are referring to as the force as well? Why can we not learn more about it, and what it actually is, instead of relying on superstition?

Ty wrote: You can think a tree is a cat, but that doesn't make it true.

Good science requires certain things- it requires you to make sure that you control for different possibilities, so that you end up with an answer that can make sense. It needs to be repeatable. It needs to be verifiable.

These things are not something that can be argued, it's how the scientific method works. And the scientific method -does- work. People who do not follow it, but call their results science, need to be avoided- so we label that bad or junk science.


As for people connecting with the force... they have been expanding their mental faculties, and learning to control the relationship between mind and body. But that is still mostly internal- I wouldn't quite call it the force, since most things that are attributed to Ki and the like are able to be replicated by people who don't believe in anything of the sort. It's simply mind/body control.

Science is improvement- this is a good thing. We have learned about improvements in every field, and so why can we not improve what you are referring to as the force as well? Why can we not learn more about it, and what it actually is, instead of relying on superstition?

Yes. I was not disagreeing. Only pointing out that not everyone believes as you do, or feels the need for scientific fact to "explain" their beliefs.

You may think a cat is a tree, and it may not be true according to what others think is a cat or a tree. but if you did believe it, then it would be true to you.

And I agree that learning more about what it "actually" is. But at the same time, I completely understand the science behind cooking and flavour profiles... yet im really not a very good cook. (really really not good).

I understand some people are perfectly happy to seize on a belief just because it feels good to believe it, but that isn't the Jedi way, from what I understand. That is a form of self-deception, and can be dangerous.