IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT: Initiate Programme Update

This gets misleading...

We are not looking to get accreditation by anyone...

But, anyone can call themselves a Jedi...

So, what we are trying to do, is to show a support structure that if someone says, "Oh, Im a Jedi over at TOTJO", then they can understand that we are not some internet organization handing out ordinations and ranking for money or kicks...

Search the internet, there are plenty of people out there who will ordain for a fee, or issue a rank for free...

We are wanting our degrees, ranks, and ordinations "to be worth more than tha paper they are printed on"...

If that makes sense...

Oh, I was just saying it seems weird for any sort of religion or what not to need accreditation from some kind of government entity since that would seem like there would need to be some kinda of standard to be met, and religious organizations are different so how would they set that standard. It seems like the said organization would know better what it want's to teach and etc. then a department.
if that makes sense

I understand why the rank and structure has been put at the beginning of the IP; I did all the beginning stuff before Campbell on the original structure.

That said, I think putting a note that members can come back to the lesson later on kind of covers the 'too much at the beginning' suggestion.

Ultimately, those who really want to be here, who really find a connection with our doctrine and our community, will stay, regardless of a copy and paste IP introduction exercise.

Renny wrote: Oh, I was just saying it seems weird for any sort of religion or what not to need accreditation from some kind of government entity since that would seem like there would need to be some kinda of standard to be met, and religious organizations are different so how would they set that standard. It seems like the said organization would know better what it want's to teach and etc. then a department.
if that makes sense

Not sure where you are located Renny, but, some governments require some form of a legitimacy to be considered an actual religion in their country...

We are building a framework...

steamboat28 wrote: Whereas TOTJO is a religious entity and not an educational one (except pursuant to the furthering of its religious teachings), and whereas the degree rankings are part of the rank structure of that religious entity, TOTJO does not need to be accredited to issue degrees, as far as I am aware. At least not in the US.

Correct. Nor did I mean it to look as though I was in favor of seeking accreditation or that we “need” it. The degree is still valid but may not be accepted (because of a lack of accreditation) by other centers of continued learning. Which was never the intent of the degree program.

Jestor wrote: So, what we are trying to do, is to show a support structure that if someone says, "Oh, Im a Jedi over at TOTJO", then they can understand that we are not some internet organization handing out ordinations and ranking for money or kicks...

Renny wrote: Oh, I was just saying it seems weird for any sort of religion or what not to need accreditation from some kind of government entity since that would seem like there would need to be some kinda of standard to be met, and religious organizations are different so how would they set that standard. It seems like the said organization would know better what it want's to teach and etc. then a department.
if that makes sense

I agree. And yes it does make sense. My understanding of it is that the accreditation is in place to support and approved minimal structure. Or say, “yes, this group meets the minimal requirements for a degree with transferable credits” that can universally be applied to other institutions of higher learning. And that, in part, is why there are required classes set in the structure for certain degrees that don’t seem to have much direct relevance to the degree being pursued.

Do we want to teach the different maths, sciences and language classes that accompany the different degrees so that we can get accreditation? I don’t!

Jestor wrote:

Renny wrote: Oh, I was just saying it seems weird for any sort of religion or what not to need accreditation from some kind of government entity since that would seem like there would need to be some kinda of standard to be met, and religious organizations are different so how would they set that standard. It seems like the said organization would know better what it want's to teach and etc. then a department.
if that makes sense

Not sure where you are located Renny, but, some governments require some form of a legitimacy to be considered an actual religion in their country...

We are building a framework...

Well I am just saying a religion is different then say a school. In some ways atleast.
and the people here at TOTJO or any religious institution would know better of what they wish to teach about.
I guess what I am saying is I don't think it really falls under the Department of Educations jurisdiction.

The TotJO program echoes the hero’s path of Departure, Adventure and Return. It is our particular Temple’s recommendations as to the nature of the path suggested to novice, initiate, and apprentice. The lessons, readings and activities are simply outlines into which the novice, initiate, and apprentice Jedi, as her or his own hero on their personal path of insight and discovery, contribute their own individual interpretations.

The TotJO program expresses what we think is important and we attract persons who agree with our values. Recognition of one’s efforts towards personal insight and discovery by others who have taken the TotJO path is a very human, and it has practical value. When the novice, initiate, and apprentice see the posted ranks of their fellow Jedi they realize that their path is others’ path. None of us is alone when we take the suggested path qua program. The path and the recognition of those who have taken it is one of the ways we express our communal values. That the true recognition of one’s own accomplishments comes from within is one of the lessons discovered on the path.

Jestor wrote: Well, I'm a bit disappointed that I got a phone number to give away rank, and really, i don't give them away...

I do accept bribes... Why give something like that away when I can get people to lavish me in cookies?

Pffftttt,...

Anyway, Ren, there was no structure, and NOBODY was staying...

When I joined, other than John, no regular members had more than a month or twos service....

We got the structure (ranks) built, and retention started increasing...

And getting that ironed out took forever too.... lol...

I'll say again, with a slight adjustment....

The staff [the structure], is here to support the student, who is doing the IP, to support their belief...

Lol Jestor I know this very well. You seem to have forgotten that I worked on the early rank stuff.... And in fact, back then I was against having a rank just for starting the IP(novice), as I thought it was simply just "too much rank", not to mention it needed a lot of your time....

The fact is, when people complete the first (written) exercise/lesson of the IP, they are told to contact you in order to have it changed. And they contact you again whenever it has not been changed, because for many people now, rank seems to be a major concern. You're always using your blasted phone, so, yeah, it's 555-JESTOR. I thought this was kinda funny, no? Or is it because now I'm not on the council I get to do all the bitchin on the public forum and you can't tell me "You're a councillor you have to watch out for what you say" ? lol

Before rank was almost meaningless because everyone seemed to award it at random, now everything else increasingly seems meaningless (even though the "everything else" has seen many improvements also).
I am making an observation about what seems to be a harmful trend.

To echo Alan's comment, I can't imagine old ben asking luke to study rebel chain of command and rules of engagement before flying to alderaan.

ren wrote: To echo Alan's comment, I can't imagine old ben asking luke to study rebel chain of command and rules of engagement before flying to alderaan.

But you don't think Obi-Wan made Anakin study the structure of the Jedi Temple when he arrived?

That's a more apt comparison I think.. TOTJO is hardly a one-man-and-his-hut operation, after all...

Plus we don't even make our newbs grow those dorky little ponytails...

But you don't think Obi-Wan made Anakin study the structure of the Jedi Temple when he arrived?

No, I don't think so. In fact, I think Obi-wan put it to them that he was going to train Anakin even though he was too old because it was qi-gon's last request, in the same way that qi-gon was going to train him no matter what the council had to say about it.

In fact, Anakin's very first instructions from qi-gon are to pay close attention to what he's doing, not in the order's structure. he is to be trained in the ways of the Force, not in temple administration.

Similarly the downfall of the Jedi can be attributed to the system. What if the Jedi hadn't been linked to the republic? What if they weren't made to play a role in the republic's army? What about when Anakin and padme fall in love? Is it the dark side they fear or the order? What is Anakin's true frustration? Lack of (Force) power to save padme, his mother, and the rest of the galaxy, or the order, for not recognizing his efforts/skills, not letting him go rescue his mother, and being an obstacle to him finding a way to "save" padme?

If you look at the doctrine, there is a lot more emphasis on doing what's right than there is on having faith in an order. In fact Jediism supports no particular system. It assigns no "role" to anyone. The priests aren't emissaries chosen by the Force, the masters aren't prophets.

I'm merely concerned the "temple of the Jedi" is becoming a "temple of the temple".

Prudent words. Thank you ...

As it were, right as you must have been typing that, Ethan and I were having a very similar conversation ...