IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT: Initiate Programme Update

This gets misleading...

We are not looking to get accreditation by anyone...

But, anyone can call themselves a Jedi...

So, what we are trying to do, is to show a support structure that if someone says, "Oh, Im a Jedi over at TOTJO", then they can understand that we are not some internet organization handing out ordinations and ranking for money or kicks...

Search the internet, there are plenty of people out there who will ordain for a fee, or issue a rank for free...

We are wanting our degrees, ranks, and ordinations "to be worth more than tha paper they are printed on"...

If that makes sense...

Oh, I was just saying it seems weird for any sort of religion or what not to need accreditation from some kind of government entity since that would seem like there would need to be some kinda of standard to be met, and religious organizations are different so how would they set that standard. It seems like the said organization would know better what it want's to teach and etc. then a department.
if that makes sense

I understand why the rank and structure has been put at the beginning of the IP; I did all the beginning stuff before Campbell on the original structure.

That said, I think putting a note that members can come back to the lesson later on kind of covers the 'too much at the beginning' suggestion.

Ultimately, those who really want to be here, who really find a connection with our doctrine and our community, will stay, regardless of a copy and paste IP introduction exercise.

Renny wrote: Oh, I was just saying it seems weird for any sort of religion or what not to need accreditation from some kind of government entity since that would seem like there would need to be some kinda of standard to be met, and religious organizations are different so how would they set that standard. It seems like the said organization would know better what it want's to teach and etc. then a department.
if that makes sense

Not sure where you are located Renny, but, some governments require some form of a legitimacy to be considered an actual religion in their country...

We are building a framework...

steamboat28 wrote: Whereas TOTJO is a religious entity and not an educational one (except pursuant to the furthering of its religious teachings), and whereas the degree rankings are part of the rank structure of that religious entity, TOTJO does not need to be accredited to issue degrees, as far as I am aware. At least not in the US.

Correct. Nor did I mean it to look as though I was in favor of seeking accreditation or that we “need” it. The degree is still valid but may not be accepted (because of a lack of accreditation) by other centers of continued learning. Which was never the intent of the degree program.

Jestor wrote: So, what we are trying to do, is to show a support structure that if someone says, "Oh, Im a Jedi over at TOTJO", then they can understand that we are not some internet organization handing out ordinations and ranking for money or kicks...

Renny wrote: Oh, I was just saying it seems weird for any sort of religion or what not to need accreditation from some kind of government entity since that would seem like there would need to be some kinda of standard to be met, and religious organizations are different so how would they set that standard. It seems like the said organization would know better what it want's to teach and etc. then a department.
if that makes sense

I agree. And yes it does make sense. My understanding of it is that the accreditation is in place to support and approved minimal structure. Or say, “yes, this group meets the minimal requirements for a degree with transferable credits” that can universally be applied to other institutions of higher learning. And that, in part, is why there are required classes set in the structure for certain degrees that don’t seem to have much direct relevance to the degree being pursued.

Do we want to teach the different maths, sciences and language classes that accompany the different degrees so that we can get accreditation? I don’t!

Jestor wrote:

Renny wrote: Oh, I was just saying it seems weird for any sort of religion or what not to need accreditation from some kind of government entity since that would seem like there would need to be some kinda of standard to be met, and religious organizations are different so how would they set that standard. It seems like the said organization would know better what it want's to teach and etc. then a department.
if that makes sense

Not sure where you are located Renny, but, some governments require some form of a legitimacy to be considered an actual religion in their country...

We are building a framework...

Well I am just saying a religion is different then say a school. In some ways atleast.
and the people here at TOTJO or any religious institution would know better of what they wish to teach about.
I guess what I am saying is I don't think it really falls under the Department of Educations jurisdiction.

The TotJO program echoes the hero’s path of Departure, Adventure and Return. It is our particular Temple’s recommendations as to the nature of the path suggested to novice, initiate, and apprentice. The lessons, readings and activities are simply outlines into which the novice, initiate, and apprentice Jedi, as her or his own hero on their personal path of insight and discovery, contribute their own individual interpretations.

The TotJO program expresses what we think is important and we attract persons who agree with our values. Recognition of one’s efforts towards personal insight and discovery by others who have taken the TotJO path is a very human, and it has practical value. When the novice, initiate, and apprentice see the posted ranks of their fellow Jedi they realize that their path is others’ path. None of us is alone when we take the suggested path qua program. The path and the recognition of those who have taken it is one of the ways we express our communal values. That the true recognition of one’s own accomplishments comes from within is one of the lessons discovered on the path.

Jestor wrote: Well, I'm a bit disappointed that I got a phone number to give away rank, and really, i don't give them away...

I do accept bribes... Why give something like that away when I can get people to lavish me in cookies?

Pffftttt,...

Anyway, Ren, there was no structure, and NOBODY was staying...

When I joined, other than John, no regular members had more than a month or twos service....

We got the structure (ranks) built, and retention started increasing...

And getting that ironed out took forever too.... lol...

I'll say again, with a slight adjustment....

The staff [the structure], is here to support the student, who is doing the IP, to support their belief...

Lol Jestor I know this very well. You seem to have forgotten that I worked on the early rank stuff.... And in fact, back then I was against having a rank just for starting the IP(novice), as I thought it was simply just "too much rank", not to mention it needed a lot of your time....

The fact is, when people complete the first (written) exercise/lesson of the IP, they are told to contact you in order to have it changed. And they contact you again whenever it has not been changed, because for many people now, rank seems to be a major concern. You're always using your blasted phone, so, yeah, it's 555-JESTOR. I thought this was kinda funny, no? Or is it because now I'm not on the council I get to do all the bitchin on the public forum and you can't tell me "You're a councillor you have to watch out for what you say" ? lol

Before rank was almost meaningless because everyone seemed to award it at random, now everything else increasingly seems meaningless (even though the "everything else" has seen many improvements also).
I am making an observation about what seems to be a harmful trend.

To echo Alan's comment, I can't imagine old ben asking luke to study rebel chain of command and rules of engagement before flying to alderaan.

ren wrote: To echo Alan's comment, I can't imagine old ben asking luke to study rebel chain of command and rules of engagement before flying to alderaan.

But you don't think Obi-Wan made Anakin study the structure of the Jedi Temple when he arrived?

That's a more apt comparison I think.. TOTJO is hardly a one-man-and-his-hut operation, after all...

Plus we don't even make our newbs grow those dorky little ponytails...

But you don't think Obi-Wan made Anakin study the structure of the Jedi Temple when he arrived?

No, I don't think so. In fact, I think Obi-wan put it to them that he was going to train Anakin even though he was too old because it was qi-gon's last request, in the same way that qi-gon was going to train him no matter what the council had to say about it.

In fact, Anakin's very first instructions from qi-gon are to pay close attention to what he's doing, not in the order's structure. he is to be trained in the ways of the Force, not in temple administration.

Similarly the downfall of the Jedi can be attributed to the system. What if the Jedi hadn't been linked to the republic? What if they weren't made to play a role in the republic's army? What about when Anakin and padme fall in love? Is it the dark side they fear or the order? What is Anakin's true frustration? Lack of (Force) power to save padme, his mother, and the rest of the galaxy, or the order, for not recognizing his efforts/skills, not letting him go rescue his mother, and being an obstacle to him finding a way to "save" padme?

If you look at the doctrine, there is a lot more emphasis on doing what's right than there is on having faith in an order. In fact Jediism supports no particular system. It assigns no "role" to anyone. The priests aren't emissaries chosen by the Force, the masters aren't prophets.

I'm merely concerned the "temple of the Jedi" is becoming a "temple of the temple".

Prudent words. Thank you ...

As it were, right as you must have been typing that, Ethan and I were having a very similar conversation ...

Please insert a credit card or cash through the slot in the door for two minutes...

Thank you....

You're always using your blasted phone, so, yeah, it's 555-JESTOR. I thought this was kinda funny, no? Or is it because now I'm not on the council I get to do all the bitchin on the public forum and you can't tell me "You're a councillor you have to watch out for what you say" ? lol

Dude!

NO way!

Everyone will be jelous I have a phone number!!

It will become famous like "8-6-7-5-3-0-9iiinnneee"

Im excited!

Lol...

I love being teased, and honestly think you dont love me when you dont...

Ren wrote: If you look at the doctrine, there is a lot more emphasis on doing what's right than there is on having faith in an order. In fact Jediism supports no particular system. It assigns no "role" to anyone. The priests aren't emissaries chosen by the Force, the masters aren't prophets.

I'm merely concerned the "temple of the Jedi" is becoming a "temple of the temple".

Prudent words. Thank you ...

As it were, right as you must have been typing that, Ethan and I were having a very similar conversation ...

If we get that way, I hope the Knights rise up, and boot us off the Island...

Ren, you know me and Alex better than maybe the rest of council, and you know Alex and I try to put the people first... The rest of council does too, only maybe you dont know them as well, idk.,..

We think that knowing the roles of what position is able to best help a question is a good thing to know before the questions arise...

Please feel free to come to Illiniois and kick my butt if I get outta line... Then we can go get a 'horseshoe' and a chocolate coke...

Horseshoe sandwich - http://whatscookingamerica.net/History/Sandwiches/HorseshoeSandwich.htm

Chocolate Coke - http://www.justapinch.com/recipes/dessert/chocolate/chocolate-coke.html

Renny I would suggest you read Alain de Botton's Religion for Atheists as therenis a very relevant chapter regarding education as compared to secular and religious institutions - one teaches knowledge and the other wisdom - which is something I had noticed prior.

Maybe this should be asked in council, but as Jestor said (elsewhere) it is better to ask for forgiveness than beg for permission , we could move the little "come back to this later" line to be the first thing someone reads.

Additionally we could make it:
"What are the differences between the non-clerical ranks"
"Who currently holds which office"

And leave it at that. This is much more slimmed down and asks for less wordy explanation so it wouldn't be so much of a bore (coupled with letting them know they can come back to this later).

Nothing explaining all the clerical ranks etc, but of course offices like pastor would still be included.

What are people's opinions of that?

ren,

I am probably one of the biggest Star Wars fans, so I can say with certainy that What caused the fall of the order was palpatine was using everyones fear against them. Padame's fear to help her people, the jedi's fear to end the war quickly, but then with the arrival of anakin they questioned the legend of "the chosen one" and were so busy trying to find the other sith, they barely had time to listen to anyone. They also did not trust anakin. Anakin was already shaken by leaving his mother behind, and then she gets kidnapped and killed, he blames himself, gets angry, kills sandpeople. The only person that truly showed him trust aside from padame' was Palpatine. After he lost his mother, he had fears of losing padme' and palpatine played them like a violin. the downfall of the jedi happened because everyone was not on the same page and everyone thought they were right...not because they were or weren't part of the republic or part of an order.
Jediism for me is more than just a title or rank, sure..the rank is cool to say, but I live my life as a Jedi not because of a religion, but because that is one of many titles I choose to base myself on. Other titles I could use are : Samurai, Knight of valor, I think we are making this way too complicated

I will say this about the setup of the site, it is potentially confusing sometimes, I read the FAQS and did everything I was supposed to start out, but trying to figure out how to make a journal was at first confusing. There have been other things that have been slightly confusing about this site too. TOTJO has means of chat through skype or google+ , however I do not think it is used much which is a shame, because I believe if we all actually talked to one another more we would have a better relationship with one another and not as much confusion and disarray. I am honestly confused about what this post is about anymore, changing the IP, ranks, bribes of cookies, or wether or not this is a true jedi order and a place of growing and learning or just a version of a jedi facebook page. I will admit I have been very lacking in my studies, partly because I am also studying to get my Associates degree in Business adminastration. I however, came here to learn, grow, make friends, and live my life as a jedi. If I reach the Rank of Councilor one day, awsome! if not, it's ok

SilverWolf wrote: I will say this about the setup of the site, it is potentially confusing sometimes, I read the FAQS and did everything I was supposed to start out, but trying to figure out how to make a journal was at first confusing. There have been other things that have been slightly confusing about this site too. TOTJO has means of chat through skype or google+ , however I do not think it is used much which is a shame, because I believe if we all actually talked to one another more we would have a better relationship with one another and not as much confusion and disarray. I am honestly confused about what this post is about anymore, changing the IP, ranks, bribes of cookies, or wether or not this is a true jedi order and a place of growing and learning or just a version of a jedi facebook page. I will admit I have been very lacking in my studies, partly because I am also studying to get my Associates degree in Business adminastration. I however, came here to learn, grow, make friends, and live my life as a jedi. If I reach the Rank of Councilor one day, awsome! if not, it's ok

lol, Yes...

We make it confusing so that as you get dizzy, you drop the cookies...

And, honestly, it is one of the reason we did the "lesson 0" that ren is complaining about...

SOme of it is just learned through questions, but, even senior members may not know that Councillor is an Office, not a rank...

It is things like that that we are trying to be clear about by having a 'structure' lesson...

Please feel free to come to Illiniois and kick my butt if I get outta line... Then we can go get a 'horseshoe' and a chocolate coke...

I have considered contacting your wife so that she may then force you to read all that Krishnamurti stuff

ren,

I am probably one of the biggest Star Wars fans, so I can say with certainy that What caused the fall of the order was palpatine was using everyones fear against them.

Yes, that's true palpatine did this, but not with everyone. He just couldn't manipulate the Jedi like that, so he kept them busy.... The system was too big a part of them for them to realize the guy they were taking orders from was in fact a Sith lord. I mean seriously, how long would it have taken them to realize that if palpatine hadn't "opened up" to Anakin? remember Windu's "are you sure?" They were nowhere near the truth, blinded by their misplaced (inculcated by the order) faith in their order and status.

What is your rank Jestor, if you do not mind?
Bishop?
Perhaps I myself do not understand the structure of ranks... :blush:
Councilor is not rank?. :dry:
I thought Clerical ranks were in a category all to themselves.
Jedi ranks of guest,member,novice,initiate,apprentice, knight, and master, were a category of rank...?
or after these ranks come the higher clerical ranks?
I am confused...
One could have three ranks?
Councilor
Master
and minister?

Three categories is correct: rank, clerical rank and office(s).

Technically it'd have to be Councillor, Master and Deacon, as Ministers become Deacons automatically if they attain rank Knight (or Knights attain what would otherwise be the rank of Minister)... but... yeah.

I believe councillor is technically an office. So one member can have any number of offices, plus their "training" rank of Apprentice, Knight etc and any clerical rank they've attained besides that.

You're right. It is confusing to explain, ha ha!

From FAQ 11:

There are 4 types of 'ranking' in the Order. These are: 'Statuses', 'Ranks', 'Offices' and 'Clerical Ranks'.

A 'Rank' is related to the amount of study that has been accomplished at the Temple.

A 'Status' is related to the level of rights and responsibilities (some legal) that a member has in the Temple.

An 'Office' is a specific position held by a person that relates to specific tasks and responsibilities.

A 'Clerical Rank' is the level of clerical duty and responsibility that a person has in the Order.

Llama Su wrote: Councilor is not rank?. :dry:

tzb wrote: I believe councillor is technically an office.

Councillor is not a rank. I thought it was an office, although the FAQ lists it as a status (this is getting very confusing...)

The ranks of our current Councillors are GrandMaster, Master, Senior Knight and Knight.

When I came to Council I asked if it were possible to have my rank displayed and Office. But because of the way the rank bars and stuff are set up, the site only allows us to display one or the other if we are to have the clerical rank.

As it stands, I am just a Knight of Jediism that holds an office in Council.

I am also in the Seminary, but there is no rank bar for how low on the totem pole I am on that course.

Hahahhahahha :woohoo: