Why is the govt shut down. Dems or reps?

Is seems to me the immigration issue should be a nonstarter. DOCA has been ended and I don't think the republicans will allow it to come back. The fact that dems keep pushing it seems ridiculous.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Is seems to me the immigration issue should be a nonstarter. DOCA has been ended and I don't think the republicans will allow it to come back. The fact that dems keep pushing it seems ridiculous.

I'm not convinced you understand what is at stake for the Dreamers, how they got here, or why ending DACA is both shortsighted and heartless. It seems obvious to me why this is far from a ridiculous issue. I could be biased from too many years of having to tell people the law could do nothing for them despite their having lived virtually their entire lives in the US, going to school or college, even serving in the military, before DACA went into effect. Of course, there's also the fact that under DACA, law abiding people who fell into this category were obliged to come out of the shadows and disclose their status and details on the promise that no removal action would go forward as long as they obeyed the law. Broken promises under color of law break my heart.

Note to mods: I'm pretty sure I got that out without personal attack or violating any forum rules. But if I need a time out perhaps the universe is telling me that I need a break.

The New York Times
Breaking News Alert
January 22, 2018
NYTimes.com »

BREAKING NEWS
The U.S. government is close to reopening: Senate Democrats helped advance a stopgap bill after a G.O.P. pledge to continue immigration talks
Monday, January 22, 2018 12:45 PM EST
The Senate voted overwhelmingly to end the three-day old government shutdown, with Democrats joining Republicans to clear the way for a short-term spending package that would fund the government through Feb. 8 in exchange for a promise from Republican leaders to address the fate of the young undocumented immigrants known as Dreamers.
“In a few hours, the government will reopen,” said Senator Chuck Schumer of New York, the Democratic leader. “We have a lot to do.”

http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=4z5Q7LhI+KVBjmEgFdYACPLKh239P3pgUKP3XivH3ZnGU/3bNb5ZdzXDj+rqORincn0/koKl3OvSjsg4db5o/UDZetdsAYadKH7pilVGwly6D332HlY312aon4V/CdIulSiJ5UpcfqBHc9b7E0P0yw1qc5qS5xqE&campaign_id=132&instance_id=110367&segment_id=119673&user_id=515cb1e8ee183a0c295d70deba43711b®i_id=57704928

Atticus wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Is seems to me the immigration issue should be a nonstarter. DOCA has been ended and I don't think the republicans will allow it to come back. The fact that dems keep pushing it seems ridiculous.

I'm not convinced you understand what is at stake for the Dreamers, how they got here, or why ending DACA is both shortsighted and heartless. It seems obvious to me why this is far from a ridiculous issue. I could be biased from too many years of having to tell people the law could do nothing for them despite their having lived virtually their entire lives in the US, going to school or college, even serving in the military, before DACA went into effect. Of course, there's also the fact that under DACA, law abiding people who fell into this category were obliged to come out of the shadows and disclose their status and details on the promise that no removal action would go forward as long as they obeyed the law. Broken promises under color of law break my heart.

Note to mods: I'm pretty sure I got that out without personal attack or violating any forum rules. But if I need a time out perhaps the universe is telling me that I need a break.

No I think you did fine!
I admit I dont know all the nuance of the DACA issue. What I understand is that those under the program could apply for work visas and undergo the process to become legal. If that is not done then they could be exported. In any event I think its a little underhanded to attach the issue to a bill that really has nothing to do with it. The Dems are using leverage in a very bad way to further an agenda without really taking into account all the other ramifications of the move.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: No I think you did fine!
I admit I dont know all the nuance of the DACA issue. What I understand is that those under the program could apply for work visas and undergo the process to become legal. If that is not done then they could be exported.

Thank you, Kyrin. You're half right; under the program, qualifying persons could apply for work visas and rely on the administration's promise they would not be deported (to nations to which they have no ties, remember, and often don't even speak the language). But no, there is no path for them to become legal, absent future legislation that has been shouted down by the opposition for some nine years running now.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: In any event I think its a little underhanded to attach the issue to a bill that really has nothing to do with it. The Dems are using leverage in a very bad way to further an agenda without really taking into account all the other ramifications of the move.

Attaching amendments, or demanding attachment of amendments, to seemingly unrelated bills is done all the time, by both sides. Which doesn't necessarily make it right, of course, but you cannot blame Democrats for using a tactic that Republicans have used just as egregiously. I find it somewhat more justified in this case, not just because I believe this is an issue that must be addressed, but because the executive has put a deadline on getting something done that is less than eight weeks away. We're talking about a Congress that has passed exactly one piece of substantive legislation of any consequence in the past year; do you really trust that Republican leadership in either house will allow any movement on legislation they have historically vehemently opposed? In the next six or seven weeks? Would you be so opposed to the tactic of attachment if it were funding for the Children's Health Insurance Program, rather than a fix for DACA, that was holding up a continuing resolution to fund the federal government?

Yes I know they add weird attachments to bills all the time. However this one being what it is seems like the dems are holding the nation hostage just so they can make a point. That was all I was saying. I know both sides abuse this process though.

I don't think the republicans will budge on this either. They want DACA gone and I tend to agree with them. Its just a stopgap to the real issue. However, having said that, I also agree that something should be done about those that have lived their entire lives here even if illegally. Its good that they get work visas but they should also be given options to become legal and even a path to citizenship. This is really what should happen if we were to strip away all the politics.

I think its sad people cant just be practical and do not only what needs to be done but also what makes the most sense. And your right, most of the republican party cant get its own head out of its butt, let alone play nice with others.

In response to the original question, this is the first time a government shutdown has happened while one party controls both houses of Congress and the Presidency. That’s saying a LOT!

In response to the DACA discussion, that’s just one piece. Trump has refused to pass anything with DACA in it that doesn’t also fund his wall. McConnel told Dems they had to choose between funding DACA (preventing deportation of dreamers) and funding CHIP (Children’s Health Insurance Program), essentially using children as a bargaining chip to further their immigration policy. Dems proposed a bill that would pay military salaries and death benefits despite any government shutdown and McConnel wouldn’t even allow it to come to a vote because he’s using the military and our national security as a bargaining chip as well. Republicans also realize the majority of government agencies affected are ones they are trying to cut funding to anyway (NASA, National Park Service, EPA, FDA, Social Security, etc.)

The irony is, any gains made by Republicans in this fight would likely be undone by a potential Democratic controlled Congress in 2018. Even a fully funded wall will take years to build, and in the meantime the funding could be reversed leaving a half built completely pointless waste of money.

And finally, the state of the economy is not all due to this administration. Unemployment was already going down under Obama’s last year and there was more job growth in his last December than in Trump’s first. The stock market made larger gains percentage wise under Obama as well, but Trump hasn’t had as long, so we’ll have to wait on that one, but it isn’t a fair indicator anyway. Something like 90% of the money invested in the market is owned by 5% of the public. It’s super rich getting super richer and has no impact on the ordinary American. My 401k certainly isn’t going nuts and making me millions, but I know the Koch brothers and Trump are making a killing.

Senan wrote: In response to the original question, this is the first time a government shutdown has happened while one party controls both houses of Congress and the Presidency. That’s saying a LOT!

Thats not completely accurate because congress still needs a super majority to pass the bill. and the republicans dont have enough to just make that number without democratic help.

Senan wrote: And finally, the state of the economy is not all due to this administration. Unemployment was already going down under Obama’s last year and there was more job growth in his last December than in Trump’s first. The stock market made larger gains percentage wise under Obama as well, but Trump hasn’t had as long, so we’ll have to wait on that one, but it isn’t a fair indicator anyway. Something like 90% of the money invested in the market is owned by 5% of the public. It’s super rich getting super richer and has no impact on the ordinary American. My 401k certainly isn’t going nuts and making me millions, but I know the Koch brothers and Trump are making a killing.

Its true that its not completely fair to compare the two since Trump has only been in office one year. However in that first year we have seen the GDP grow at over 3% for two quarters. Some thing Obama could not say in his 8 years. And over this past year the stock market has grown 33% over Obamas 14% over 8 years. But these are not fair numbers since the time frames are different. Time will tell who is really doing better but with the new tax bill being put in place I have high hopes that that rate will continue to climb.

Im surprised you did not see your 401K grow. Mine did. It went from an average of 4% to over 14% growth and as a result of the tax cut and I received a special xmas bonus from my company! Plus over 200 companies have pledged to invest extra trillions of dollars into the economy next year as a result. In fact the tax cut now for the first time in decades puts the corporate tax rate at a place the same as the rest of the industrialized world. Before that it was much higher. With the creation of over 2.2 million jobs, its these sorts of things that I think will continue to provide awesome growth in the future.

American politics confuses me.

Surely having a government that is susceptible to shutting down, shows a massive flaw in your political system? Irrespective of who is to blame

Definitely Brick. Our system relies on "responsible" leadership.