What would help the Temple Be A Better Place? Suggestions please...

Avalonslight wrote: There was a young, new member in chat today. Their application was finally accepted and status changed. They're actively engaged in the IP. And you know what they said: "I'm no longer on the outside." That speaks to something. There's an explicit sense of non-inclusion when one is told "you're just a guest"...

Well, we should definitely work on managing expectations. I understand where you are coming from, and to an extent I see value in it as well. However, I do think we should measure this example of "inclusion" with the unreasonable expectation of "I am member, voila! I am a Jedi", which is not inherently bad, but sets people up for the expectation that there is nothing to work towards.

Avalonslight wrote: I was a guest for almost two years on the site before I finally put in my membership application. I did so because, when I joined, the Simple Oath was still a membership requirement. We moved it back to post-IP because people were saying "why should I take an oath when I'm still learning." Because like you said, "pledging support of" something only makes sense after time and commitment have been made. But membership is not a "pledge of support". It's saying "I find something in this community which speaks to me and I'd like to be a part of it" and giving people the option to do so before any training program says "we value you as an individual and welcome you to our society so that you can grow within it as you choose." There's nothing meaningless in allowing people to do that.

If membership simply means "member of a forum", then sure, no reason why they shouldn't become members. In that case, we should just get rid of the "Guest" rank, seeing as plenty of Guests regularly interact and add a lot of value in the boards as well. That way, everyone is included.

I'm pretty sure this was also brought up... but perhaps also make journals only visible to the person writing it and Initiates and above. This would not only prevent copywrite, but also add security, as only people that had put forward a full effort into becoming part of this commuity would be able to view it.

This only helps those working on the IP and those who don't want input from others. Some people post in journals not doing the IP but do so under the guidance of others. And why should initiates read the journals of non-initiates if the non-initiates are not working on the IP? It doesn't make sense.

If someone really wants to keep things private, I see no reason why they can't save everything off site and submit it to someone for review outside of the forum or by PM, that way it's private but nobody else has to have restrictions to their journals.

Perhaps Novice's and above should only be allowed to be in there. Yes, Novice is an easy rank to attain... but yet we have many that become a member and teeter off. But in the end it would add something to attain, making more people want to participate in the IP.

Or scare them off.

How/why would this Temple act differently?

If you went to the same church for 2 years every Sunday and more, would you still consider yourself a guest even if you hadn't taken confirmation or been christened? There are members here who have been so for years without the IP.. do we really consider them 'guests'? I personally don't think so.

Edan,

So, I just noticed. Why are you a Guest and not a Member?

Manu wrote: Edan,

So, I just noticed. Why are you a Guest and not a Member?

I will PM you..

Manu wrote: For the person joining, what meaning does it hold to become an official member if they have not done the IP, which helps understand the basics of what this site is? A flashy "Jedi" title?

I can only speak for myself of course, but to me it's very meaningful indeed. Largely because of physical and mental health issues, I reckon the IP will take me between 6-12 months. I've only done two journal posts that are lessons. But I feel very much like part of the community. I'm a *member* of the community regardless of how many planned lessons I've done. I've done a heck of a lot of extracurricular learning here that is important too. To be told I can't be officially called a member of the community until I've done a certain amount of learning on particular topics in a particular way would, for me, be pretty disheartening.

ReallyRiver wrote: I can only speak for myself of course, but to me it's very meaningful indeed. Largely because of physical and mental health issues, I reckon the IP will take me between 6-12 months. I've only done two journal posts that are lessons. But I feel very much like part of the community. I'm a *member* of the community regardless of how many planned lessons I've done. I've done a heck of a lot of extracurricular learning here that is important too. To be told I can't be officially called a member of the community until I've done a certain amount of learning on particular topics in a particular way would, for me, be pretty disheartening.

But why?

Manu wrote:

ReallyRiver wrote: I can only speak for myself of course, but to me it's very meaningful indeed. Largely because of physical and mental health issues, I reckon the IP will take me between 6-12 months. I've only done two journal posts that are lessons. But I feel very much like part of the community. I'm a *member* of the community regardless of how many planned lessons I've done. I've done a heck of a lot of extracurricular learning here that is important too. To be told I can't be officially called a member of the community until I've done a certain amount of learning on particular topics in a particular way would, for me, be pretty disheartening.

But why?

To use a crude simile... it would be like buying a football shirt for your team, learning all the players' names and histories, but not being allowed in the members' bar while everyone else sits inside and talks about the latest match while you're outside with your pint wondering why nobody will let you in.

And I don't know what I did to make that all be a quote, lol. Sorry if it's confusing

Edan wrote:

How/why would this Temple act differently?

If you went to the same church for 2 years every Sunday and more, would you still consider yourself a guest even if you hadn't taken confirmation or been christened? There are members here who have been so for years without the IP.. do we really consider them 'guests'? I personally don't think so.

If you went to the same church every Sunday for 2 years, having read the book or not, you have likely "learned" quite a bit in that exposure to their sermons that would supplant the whole membership/guest question anyway and essentially impart upon you the teachings that you might learn on your own otherwise. In the traditional sense, you have probably been asked to make monetary donations, tithing, and the such by this point, and have thus more or less fulfilled the basic requirements of "membership".

I see here though how the whole question gets distorted by the other condition where, if you have been a member of a specific church your whole life, but only show up for Christmas and Easter...while identifying as a Christian, or the like, and claiming to be a member of that church...are you really? No, the pastor isn't likely to kick you out for not showing up more, or make you pay treble when you do show, you'll remain on their rolls even with years of gaps in appearance, as a member.

Senan : I appreciate that explanation as well. Inclusion and the whole "open door" approach are rather crucial to any institution. I for one actually pondered for a few weeks over whether I wanted to submit the application to become a "member" or simply remain as a "guest" anyway, since I could still do the IP either way. I hesitated namely because the application asked for some rather personal information that I am not generally a fan of sharing over the internet. In the end, having gotten my nose into the IP enough, realizing this was a place that had a lot to offer me, I shrugged off the question of what it was I was getting myself into and whether the personally satisfying notion of being accepted as a "member" would be worth the implied risk.

In the end, perhaps the whole thing is getting a bit too attached to the rank and title question and ignoring the value of being and effort? These are mere words we are utilizing to explain a concept or level of participation, and they are not themselves indicative of one's own path anyway. To the extent either or neither differentiate little other than a personal commitment, I don't know that the "guest/member" question is truly an issue. My primary driving point was that as a "guest" trying to test the waters of the Temple with little other responses aside from "Welcome, check out the FAQ and IP, and PM me if you have questions" is a somewhat lame duck way of allowing people to find the Temple, understand what is offered here, and then decide whether or not they type in the URL again without actually getting a clear coat portrait of "What" the Temple is and "What" it is not.

Perhaps rather than separating the whole issue, or requiring this or that, are far more basic, user friendly, "Introduction" presentation/video of sorts could help answer those simple questions we all had the first day we happened upon the Temple.

Edan wrote:

Manu wrote:

ReallyRiver wrote: I can only speak for myself of course, but to me it's very meaningful indeed. Largely because of physical and mental health issues, I reckon the IP will take me between 6-12 months. I've only done two journal posts that are lessons. But I feel very much like part of the community. I'm a *member* of the community regardless of how many planned lessons I've done. I've done a heck of a lot of extracurricular learning here that is important too. To be told I can't be officially called a member of the community until I've done a certain amount of learning on particular topics in a particular way would, for me, be pretty disheartening.

But why?

To use a crude simile... it would be like buying a football shirt for your team, learning all the players' names and histories, but not being allowed in the members' bar while everyone else sits inside and talks about the latest match while you're outside with your pint wondering why nobody will let you in.

See, that's the important part for me. At the moment you can just buy the shirt, never watch a match, never learn a player's name, and you're in the member's bar. The IP is the learning which underpins membership having any value beyond waiting a week and filling in a form. Literally anyone can become a Member by waiting a week. To me that's not meaningfully distinct from Guest status, and makes the distinction seem a little worthless to me. I'm into ranks only being used when they mean something, and the member rank means "I'm a Guest who waited a week".

I'm also not seeing the stigma attached to Guest rank others seem to be describing... Guests are not outsiders, they are just not very involved in the training we do here. That's fine and they're very welcome, but the ranks represent levels of training... always. Except in the Guest>Member case.

Edit - I must echo Sam though... whilst this is an interesting discussion I don't feel it to be one of the more pressing matters facing us as a Temple, just that on the face of it, it's an idea I see some merit in.