Are Jedi Against Deception

Connor L. oh I can easily make you believe that I am enlightened, and will endeavour to do so. I learned all the tricks of the trade to manipulate other humans into receiving an emotional state. If you want me to behave in a way that actually helps others rather than be argumentative, than sure I can adjust my temperament and be less reactive and controversial. But really I have no idea what [you] want from me..

I don't want anything from you.

Such an interesting topic, one that has been on my mind for a few months now. Since everyone seems so involved, I thought I may take a turn as well, starting with my opinions on the subject.

Deception is where a person passes information to someone else with a hidden intent. The information may be true from the perspective of either sender or receiver, or sometimes both. The interesting aspect of deception is that it can happen in complete honesty. Connotation is the part of verbal communication that is resoundingly left to interpretation. A sentence can imply 5 different messages based on emphasis of tone and pitch during specific words in the sentence.

I believe, and please correct me if I am wrong, that Ariane is trying to indicate that deception should not occur at all. From her perspective, deception is a form of distrust.

I do not believe as Ariane does. I feel that deception is a necessary part of interpersonal relationships, built in from the start. People generally fear opening up to people. As a new relationship starts, a person does not start reciting the laundry list of character defects they have, or the outstanding debts they have accumulated, or past relationships that ended in failure. Such blunt honesty would very likely leave the other person wondering if the relationship is viable.

So we tend to hide our defects until we are comfortable in the relationship. Under the concept of pure honesty, this is a form of deception. In my understanding, mankind would have a long road if everyone expected this level of honesty.

So, are Jedi against deception? That's a great question. This community thrives on individual perspectives on issues like this. Ask 10 Jedi here this question and you are very likely to get 11 answers, each one correct from the perspective of the person answering.

Ariane, I would ask you to seek the answer out within yourself. You may feel that you are a Jedi already, or you may not. The important thing to know is what you believe, why you believe it, and if you are willing to let other people believe something completely different. After all, this community is about accepting perspectives of others as an opportunity to learn more about yourself.

no one is expected to go in to the entire inventory of personal imperfections on the first date

but, lets put it like this: you should be able to and willing to if thats where the conversation goes

the "best behavior" theory taken to the point that the word "deception" even enters the mind as an appropriate descriptive is imo somewhere between "afraid" and "manipulative"

the worst possible thing in the world that you can do is hide your flaws when youre looking for a long term relationship

the idea that if someone gets to know "the good you" then they will be willing to accept the "bad" you is NOT FUNCTIONAL

im not saying to broadcast all the negative ideas you have about yourself and make it the center of attention right off the bat

what im saying is that as the relationship develops - at every step - its important to be clear about whats going on

stumbling into it haphazardly because you dont feel comfortable or confident to be deliberate almost always gets people in over their heads

the "what is the nature of our relationship and what are our requirements of each other" talk is pretty important

and imo there is no point in any romantic relationship where any kind of DECEPTION is appropriate at all if that deception involves future behavior and obligation/expectation

the last is nonya but whatever will affect the future it is your obligation to be forthright if you want things to be healthy imo

tricking someone in to liking you will backfire, ESPECIALLY IF YOU ARE A MAN TRICKING A WOMAN

lol
its true

her mother and all of her friends will say "yeah but you didnt know he kicks puppies" AND SHE WILL LISTEN TO THEM AS SOON AS SHE GETS TIRED OF YOUR PUPPY KICKING
and it will be totally justifiable becsuse she DIDNT know that you kick puppies

obviously theres never any need to explain something that just isnt relevant to the situation

but as soon as it is clear that someone is looking at long term potential - THAT IS THE TIME to have "the talk" about who we are and what we want, and what we are in for with each other

there is no point in avoiding that conversation; a deal breaker is a deal breaker no matter when it gets addressed

shes not going to really really like you enough to just get over/look past something that she just isnt going to accept in a relationship

not for long - she might hold on to the idea that youll change

imo, its better to be clear that this is what you have to offer, and this is what you expect you will be doing with your life for the conceivable future, this is what youre looking for in a partner, and thats all kind of a take it or leave it situation for everyone

really, no one changes very much for anyone else

it sort of happens sometimes in a way

but basically
if you liked to kick puppies before you met her, then youre still going to kick puppies once youre together
and unless you are planning to change that aspect of your behavior regardless of her, as a personal goal that has nothing to do with anyone but you and god and the kennel, then youre better off letting her know pretty early

thats one of those things her friends and family will say "but you didnt know"

and theyll be right

so again, its best to get the "i kick puppies" conversation out of the way sooner than later because, its something thats either ok or not ok, and isnt going to change just because you hook up
so if youre up font about your puppy habbit from the begining then at least the other person wont be able to say you didnt warn them

thats my opinion anyway

I think it's a personal preference. I don't like to lie or deceive, but I have I just don't practice the art of deception.

To ask if Jedi in general do this or do that is a mistake. We're all individuals. None of us follow the exact same path.

There are different degrees of deception and of lying. I don't make a practice of either. Having grown up in a family of lies and secrets I have made honesty one of my guiding virtues.

Even so...

and this is a rather shallow example: on occasion one of my students will come up to me all excited about their discovery of some idea or fact, etc. and ask me what I know about it. Oft times, this is not a request for information but really what my student wants is the opportunity to tell me what they know. It's not about what I know. So, feigning no expertise I ask the student what they have discovered. What follows is always a joy to experience.

This is a topic that I have been thinking about a lot recently. My original post for this was rather long and rambling, but I've been finding recently that less can be more when it comes to my forum posts so I will make this brief...well...briefer.

I do not like the idea of lying or deception in general. I believe that most lies, even if made with good intentions, are just going to make things worse in the end. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions, as they say. I am of the thought that the ends do not justify the means. If I have to sacrifice my principles to achieve my goals then I need to re-examine either my goals or my principles.

While I do not enjoy the idea of deceiving others there are times when I do so. I realize that the world is not black and white, also that it is a messy place and I can't expect to not get some mud on me. I treat deception like I treat a weapon. I know how to use it and I have it ready should it prove absolutely necessary, but if I could go my entire life without ever pulling that trigger I'd die a happy man.

Small side note. On the first page Kitsu mentioned the Jedi Mind Trick. Interestingly, I disagree with it's use. I get why Obi-Wan used it in the first one, but feel like it'd be something that a Jedi would strive to never need to use. I can't imagine that depriving a living being of it's basic mental freedom would be something that a Jedi would do without much care or thought.

I'm fine with lying as long as I do it honestly.

Personally I prefer to be as honest as possible, and if I lie it's usually by omission alone - and I don't particularly feel that telling the truth is as restrictive as "always saying exactly what's on your mind".

Ive been sitting on this topic for days now, and I was wondering about it because its something that im struggling with in a personal sense at the moment.

I hate being lied to. Its probably my biggest peeve. And its unfortunately something that one of my parents does a lot of. Which I find disappointing and hurtful. But ive found myself wondering, why?

Its hurtful because I have the expectation of honestly, but why do I have that in the first place? Where and why did I learn that it is a desired trait and that I should expect it from people in my life? I have no answers yet

Brenna wrote: Its hurtful because I have the expectation of honestly, but why do I have that in the first place? Where and why did I learn that it is a desired trait and that I should expect it from people in my life? I have no answers yet

As a rule of thumb. Parents teach their children that Lieing is bad, its worse the swear words :laugh: at least it was in my family. Lieing got me grounded, and yelled at, and in serious Poo Doo.

But now that my parents has no say in my life I realize that it was just their way to keep track of me. Lieing makes it hard for them to know the truth of the things they can't see and control so...Nip that in the bud.

As a result. I could say that I had never lied about ANYTHING my entire life.....until mid highschool when I became an adult myself and started thinking for myself. I realized that some things are necessary to lie about and some deception can save your life.

Goken wrote: Small side note. On the first page Kitsu mentioned the Jedi Mind Trick. Interestingly, I disagree with it's use. I get why Obi-Wan used it in the first one, but feel like it'd be something that a Jedi would strive to never need to use. I can't imagine that depriving a living being of it's basic mental freedom would be something that a Jedi would do without much care or thought.

I wont go into detail as I am sure we are wanting to keep to "Real" examples and expressions here. But, I wonder if you have read the books and history of Jedi.....Jedi are not so peaceful and loving and thinking about the goodness in all things kind of people They did what was right for the greater cause. Including deception. In fact...they did quite alot of deception...The Jedi mind trick was quite a useful and common tool in their bag of tricks.