Are Jedi Against Deception

Greetings Jedi,

I find that deception and truth are both equally important and both are just as manipulative as the other and it takes skill to learn the truth and skill to learn deception. So I started lying when I was twelve because I spoke so truthfully that people hated me. And when I lied, people were attracted to me. So whenever me and my friend hears a lie we both recite these two lines:

Oh, what a tangled web we weave
When first we practise to deceive!

Then when I started smoking weed in college my mum came into the dormitory and said "What's that smell?" And me and my friend looked at each other and said "Its the smell of wild Garlic" then pointed toward the garlic bulb in the kitchen. So whenever my mum smelled marijuana she said "its that garlic smell again".

My question is "Is deception something the Jedi oppose?"

Personally the better you are at speaking truthfully and listening to truth can help a Jedi improve. However there comes point in your life that you question "should one speak the truth, if people cant tolerate the truth?" So are the Jedi opposed to deception?

Also Because I am British we have to stand up in class in remembrance of 'World War Two' and learn about 'Propaganda' and recite, Loose Lips Sinks Ships. Basically meaning "if there wasn't a web of deception in society there would be war from our enemies". Yet people hate and oppose deception as though it were 'bad' and are punished for deceiving others or told not to tell fibs.

...this punishment which only further highlights that when one learns 'the truth' that there is a massive web of deception, that people cant tolerate such truth and only further creates the need for deception.


Love & Light xx

Greetings,

This is indeed the philosophy section so here are some arguments: Most people would say that lying is always wrong, except when there's a good reason for it like Kitsu Tails - which means that it's not always wrong!

This definition says, that what makes a lie, a lie is the liars intention: Because Lying treats those who are lied to as a means to achieve the liar's purpose, rather than as a valuable end in themselves.

Lying is bad. Period.

Jedi like any other human will pretend they are good and do so for acceptance or popularity and also egocentric desire of positive feedback from peers. Good and Evil characters will also believe in anything, wrong doing and anything else, when it suits them because its a fundamental human nature to manipulate to support oneself. Much like the Sith who commit evil like lying and killing to achieve their means. The lines between good and evil become indistinguishable.

Many people think that it is wrong to treat people as means to an ends. Lying is bad, because it does just that, it makes it difficult for the person being lied to, to make a free and informed decision about the matter concerned. So that the liars purpose is achieved. Lying its also a form of elitism so that the liars purpose outweighs the deceived person.

Lies lead people to base their decisions on false information. Lying is bad because it cannot sensibly be made into a universal principle. Many people think that something should only be accepted as an ethical rule if it can be applied in every case so therefore Lying is bad because it's cannot be a basic moral choice.

Some things are fundamentally bad - lying is one of them. Those who tell 'good lies' don't generally suffer bad consequences - although they may do so on some occasions. Lying and truth-telling. Above all a liar should have a very good memory.


There is no Good or Bad only Power
There is no lie, only success
There is no Try only do or do not


Love & Light

"Good" and "bad" are personal judgments and values....

You appear to be a very "black and white" person...

Rather than the "shades of grey" that most Jedi are...

You provided a definition for lying, I don't agree with it, so lets start with a common definition, if you truely wish to engage in conversation...

To find this, let's start with an agreed upon definition of "lie" or "lying"...

I will give you first choice, well second choice, and lets start with a dictionary definition... Sound OK?

Or I can find one, if you like....

Ariane wrote: Loose Lips Sinks Ships.

This was on posters to remind people they didn't know who they were talking to so they didn't away any secrets accidentally, not to incite anyone to actually deceive.

Truth is the basis for trust.. and if I deceive someone, then I believe I don't deserve their trust.
I do not believe in pretending something is true when it isn't just to get my own way. And if you want my opinion I'll give it to you, all of it. That said, I can only tell you my truth.. and whether you believe it is another thing.

Greetings

Ok then Jestor, here we go

A lie has three essential features:

1. A lie communicates some information
2. The liar intends to deceive or mislead
3. The liar believes that what they are 'saying' is not true

There are some features that people think are part of lying, but aren't really actually necessary:


4. A lie does not have to give false information
5. A lies does not have to be told with a bad (malicious) intention - white lies are an example of lies told with a good intention

What my point is, if Jedi relent on ethical principles and succumb to subversion to achieve their vision and shape the world as they see fit and are "shades of grey" as you say, then then how can we Jedi claim we are good?

Also Edan i think your naive in a world that has committed such evil, how can one be expected to be good? Lying is a bigger issue that we must become good at as Kitsu Tails suggests. Lying is not moral and we must use evil to achieve our goals because after all Good does not exist.

And as socrates said morals should exist universally if they have any value :evil: :whistle:

I am confused on the dictionary definitions

what dictionary

1 definition for lie 2 for liar?

what is the truth of this?

Meereka,

My definition of 'lying' is that it doesn't matter if the information is true or false, but you need to present some form of information but also withholding information can be deceptive too. Secondly A liar must believe he is presenting a dubious or inaccurate information, being deceptive as opposed to misinformation or erroneous data.

Lots of things I could say about this.

But,

What my point is, if Jedi relent on ethical principles and succumb to subversion to achieve their vision and shape the world as they see fit and are "shades of grey" as you say, then then how can we Jedi claim we are good?

Where do we relent on ethical principles? Where do we succumb to subversion to achieve our vision? Where do we shape the world as we see fit?

On, on the other hand, where do we claim we are good?

Jedi are not one body working in tandem... we are a thriving community of very different people (not automatons).

Mareeka wrote: I am confused on the dictionary definitions

what dictionary

1 definition for lie 2 for liar?

what is the truth of this?

If math is the "universal language", then looking at talking, must be the same...

To begin a conversations, we must agree in the "common denominators"...

I was letting Ariane pick what definition, which dictionary, we use...

That's all a dictionary is, a posted, commonly accepted definition...

And to define either...

Perhaps, if you are confused, watch the conversation, and see where it goes?

Ariane and i seem to be understanding each other...

++++++++++
Ariane, in both your posts, you've edited and altered words and sentences, which makes responses difficult...

So, I will wait the one hour time limit to respond so that i can use what you've posted...

I don't want to.misquote...