Are Jedi Against Deception

Well, I was hoping to agree on a more universal definition...

How about:

At dictionary.com, it is wrote:
lie
noun
1.
a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.
Synonyms: prevarication, falsification.
Antonyms: truth.
2.
something intended or serving to convey a false impression; imposture:
His flashy car was a lie that deceived no one.

Would that work?

Ariane wrote:
A lie has three essential features:

1. A lie communicates some information
2. The liar intends to deceive or mislead
3. The liar believes that what they are 'saying' is not true

There are some features that people think are part of lying, but aren't really actually necessary:


4. A lie does not have to give false information
5. A lies does not have to be told with a bad (malicious) intention - white lies are an example of lies told with a good intention

Because I would like an example of a lie that doesn't give false info...

Please...

What my point is, if Jedi relent on ethical principles and succumb to subversion to achieve their vision and shape the world as they see fit and are "shades of grey" as you say, then then how can we Jedi claim we are good?

Also Edan i think your naive in a world that has committed such evil, how can one be expected to be good? Lying is a bigger issue that we must become good at as Kitsu Tails suggests. Lying is not moral and we must use evil to achieve our goals because after all Good does not exist.

And as socrates said morals should exist universally if they have any value :evil: :whistle:

And to echo Connor, "who says we are "good"?

You may judge my actions bad, another good...

The Sith ain't evil either, by the way...

No actions however good you think them no matter what doctrine will always be wrong unless your supported because its humanity that gives words meanings and the power that holds. So it is also humans that can make your ideas a fallacy unless you have support for your supposed principles. You should never hold onto the sentimental reasoning or principles that make you feel good because you feel that it is correct. Rather it is through humanities support of your actions no matter how evil you may believe they are which validates them.

So;

Equal rights
Slavery
Gay marriage
Etc

Were not supported by the majority at the time, those with the passion for them should have let them go?

A few more questions:

Is lying really worthwhile?
Is Evil necessary?
Is it possible to hold ourselves to our own Standards?
Should we compromise our Standards for a good Reason?
Should we Modify our beliefs continually, or should they remain fixed?

Thanks Jestor,

A lie can have truth in it, when you tell the truth to deceive someone of your true intentions. You wanted the last strawberry so you deceived someone "don't eat that strawberry, there may be a worm inside" Then the liar eats the strawberry and then there was actually a worm inside then you spit it out.



EDIT: personally Edan is naive because she believes in treating everyone like she treats herself, without regard for other peoples behaviour. Or thats how it seems, she believes in Equality in an unfair world. She also modifies her statement: "I hold myself to my own standard and If I fail its because Im human". Therefore she didn't hold herself to own standards. So she basically lied where as she opposes deception because she is Jedi.

Ariane wrote: EDIT: personally Edan is naive because she believes in treating everyone like she treats herself, without regard for other peoples behaviour. Or thats how it seems, she believes in Equality in an unfair world. She also modifies her statement: "I hold myself to my own standard and If I fail its because Im human". Therefore she didn't hold herself to own standards. So she basically lied where as she opposes deception because she is Jedi.

Could you please address me when you talk about me.. it's not very polite to talk about someone as if they're not in the conversation.

You are putting words in my mouth. I never said I believed there was equality. If i make a mistake, it doesn't mean that I don't hold myself to my standards. I am not perfect, I can never be... but holding myself to my standard means doing the best that I can. Making a mistake is not a measure of failure in this regard.

I didn't lie.. I have been completely open and honest about everything I think. You want me to be wrong, when in fact I cannot be wrong because this is only my truth (as I have said several times now).

we do know that certain behaviors are essentially UNhealthy in a variety of ways
lying is one of them

we can look at certain evolutionary developments as analogous to a lie - such as camouflage maybe and certain types of mimicry for sure, like this guy

https://www.google.com/search?q=humpback+angler+fish+images&espv=2&biw=1235&bih=639&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=1SU9VcfZB8q7ggStioD4BA&ved=0CDYQ7Ak#tbm=isch&q=humpback+anglerfish+images&spell=1

but we know that TELLING a lie - deliberately communicating a deception, causes physiological and psychological strain on the liar

http://health.usnews.com/health-news/articles/2012/08/20/how-lying-affects-your-health

now there are plenty of liars who come to enjoy the experience of successfully deceiving people
for a while they get high on a game of "me against the world" where they are usually victorious simply because theyre the only ones who know the game is going on

but these people are basically attacking the very structure which supports them, so to a great extent the game is ultimately a no win scenario which simply hasnt yet reached its obvious and painful conclusion

i dont really view the world in terms of hard morality so much as terms of personal health within the overall system and after that of system health in general

but i would point out that the behaviors which get labeled as "immoral" are usually behaviors which have a negative impact on either the health of the individual or the health of the relationships which make up a healthy society

also, its better to ask people to really explain what they believe themselves than it is to try to explain what they believe (and why its wrong) to the rest of the world

im not attacking you
im suggesting that you are digging yourself further and further into an indefensible position and offering the opportunity to rethink that strategy, if you wish to

Edan,

Hmm ok your offended, I am sorry.

I agree with many posts, and many responses in them have not been opposed, because they are quite correct. But Edan I have opposed you and we are at odds because you said you oppose deception. Failing to live a certain way is condition you set upon yourself and you said you are allowed to fail, that is fair enough.

But what I said, since you said that you fail, that your a liar,(it was a joke). Therefore you haven't failed because you lied. Also because your beliefs allow for failure. Therefore your lack of failure failed because you lied therefore you failed and thats is the God Damn truth.

Hope you understand.

OBI I will read your posts later

Yeah i agree with everyone,

Edan your beautiful and some people don't get the opportunity to live to their rose coloured self imposed creed, how nice it is to be allowed to fail. But sometimes failure is not an option and so people lie to get out of a difficult situation. People like you come along and would oust the liar and highlight him/her and say shame on you.

Then the liar gets shot and killed.

End of debate.

Ariane wrote: Yeah i agree with everyone,

Edan your beautiful and some people don't get the opportunity to live to their rose coloured self imposed creed, how nice it is to be allowed to fail. But sometimes failure is not an option and so people lie to get out of a difficult situation. People like you come along and would oust the liar and highlight him/her and say shame on you.

Then the liar gets shot and killed.

End of debate.

You're right, end of debate, because you aren't even listening. My 'rose coloured self imposed creed' seems to be working very well so far. And once again you put words in my mouth, I never said I'd oust a liar, only that I would not be deceitful. You see only what you want me to believe, so you refuse to see that I could have a different opinion that works for me. You asked 'are Jedi against deception.' This one is. You don't want a debate, you just want everyone to agree with you.

Ariane wrote: EDIT: personally Edan is naive because she believes in treating everyone like she treats herself, without regard for other peoples behaviour. Or thats how it seems, she believes in Equality in an unfair world. She also modifies her statement: "I hold myself to my own standard and If I fail its because Im human". Therefore she didn't hold herself to own standards. So she basically lied where as she opposes deception because she is Jedi.

Question, (or questions) why specifically have you come to this conclusion. Are you a little too quick to judge without getting to know someone first, or do you just get off on provoking people, honestly....

Yes I am sorry Edan,

I am upset, you don't have to agree with me. Let me just say that I have beaten more problems than most people my age have and it takes a lot of qualities to stop oppressive regimes the first thing that is lost in war is 'Truth' then the second casualty is your very soul.

And I have beaten all my problems, even got free holidays all year because of my qualities, Free travel in the United kingdom, a full pension, and i can park my car anywhere even on double yellow lines, I am going to New York, Las Vegas, Jersey, South Port, France. And I am getting hundreds of pounds to spend at every destination courtesy of The British Government. And I am on a higher wage than most professionals.

You have to be a millionaire to get a house in Jersey and I was riding around there in super cars...

I am not some kid who knows nothing, I am a man who has been through more than you can imagine.

Ariane wrote: Yes I am sorry Edan,

I am upset, you don't have to agree with me. Let me just say that I have beaten more problems than most people my age have and it takes a lot of qualities to stop oppressive regimes the first thing that is lost in war is 'Truth' then the second casualty is your very soul.

And I have beaten all my problems, even got free holidays all year because of my qualities, Free travel in the United kingdom, a full pension, and i can park my car anywhere even on double yellow lines, I am going to New York, Las Vegas, Jersey, South Port, France. And I am getting hundreds of pounds to spend at every destination courtesy of The British Government. And I am on a higher wage than most professionals.

You have to be a millionaire to get a house in Jersey and I was riding around there in super cars...

I am not some kid who knows nothing, I am a man who has been through more than you can imagine.

What has money got to do with whether one believes in deception or not?

And what you have done in your life, doesn't mean to say you understand mine either.