Caged or Free?

Ok. I'm realizing that somehow I've confused people. Let me try and be a little clearer...

Freedom is a construct that can only exist when somebody says it does. Otherwise, there are just conditions that we "apply" freedom to in order to make a case that they should or should not be free.

For example:

A murderous criminal should NOT be free.

^That above is a statement about nothing. Freedom could mean anything in the abstract. What we really mean to say is:

"A murderous criminal should be put in a jail for a time equivalent to their crime, and all rights as citizens be stripped from them."

This is more an accurate and useful opinion.

As for the bird:

Is it moral to keep the bird caged?

Who cares? The bird cannot express an opinion. If it had one, then I would listen to it. But, the bird has no function but to eat. If I'm feeding the bird, then there's nothing inherently "bad" about it. If I don't feed it, I'm murdering a bird. That's different than keeping it captive, and bars on the "We respect all life".

Is it moral to keep a man caged?

Who cares? The man has an opinion. So, it does matter in a sense. If I listen to the opinion, and I disagree, morality is still not in question. If I keep the man in a cell, then it's because I want him there. That's it.


In closing... morality is stupid. There's nothing good about it except abstract rules that may or may not help somebody grow as a person. I advise you all to stop thinking about morality, and begin thinking about the things right in front of you.

Connor Lidell wrote: Ok. I'm realizing that somehow I've confused people. Let me try and be a little clearer...

Freedom is a construct that can only exist when somebody says it does. Otherwise, there are just conditions that we "apply" freedom to in order to make a case that they should or should not be free.

For example:

A murderous criminal should NOT be free.

^That above is a statement about nothing. Freedom could mean anything in the abstract. What we really mean to say is:

"A murderous criminal should be put in a jail for a time equivalent to their crime, and all rights as citizens be stripped from them."

This is more an accurate and useful opinion.

As for the bird:

Is it moral to keep the bird caged?

Who cares? The bird cannot express an opinion. If it had one, then I would listen to it. But, the bird has no function but to eat. If I'm feeding the bird, then there's nothing inherently "bad" about it. If I don't feed it, I'm murdering a bird. That's different than keeping it captive, and bars on the "We respect all life".

Is it moral to keep a man caged?

Who cares? The man has an opinion. So, it does matter in a sense. If I listen to the opinion, and I disagree, morality is still not in question. If I keep the man in a cell, then it's because I want him there. That's it.


In closing... morality is stupid. There's nothing good about it except abstract rules that may or may not help somebody grow as a person. I advise you all to stop thinking about morality, and begin thinking about the things right in front of you.

Not any clearer at all.....and if I want your advice I ll ask for it

ren wrote:

Ren threw the word rape in the convo to be salacious and to highlight abuse.

Uh, no? I don't think there should be a differenciation between personal violations on the grounds of them being sexual or not. Hence why I used the word rape the way Jestor explained.

I had a feeling of that, once I read the orgin...

And, this is definetly a language issue at times like that... The word was from french, and being french, you used it like it was created for, like the word 'plan' in one of our long ago convos, lol... :laugh:

++++++++
Rickie, I think he meant 'you' as in 'mankind', not 'rickie'....

haha. Yup, Jestor's right.

I mean.. why does morality even come up as a question to you?

Connor Lidell wrote: In closing... morality is stupid. There's nothing good about it except abstract rules that may or may not help somebody grow as a person. I advise you all to stop thinking about morality, and begin thinking about the things right in front of you.

I'm sorry. I'm really not following you. It must be a rock day?

How did we go from freedom to morality anyway?

It must be on my end. hahaha. I'm just really bad at this today.

I'll give it one more go..

Is the caged bird denied freedom?

You can approach that from many sides, yes? Freedom to ____. Explore. Eat what it wants. See the world. Sing its song whenever it wants to. Breathe.

In my opinion, you need to be more specific. The caged bird is denied freedom to make choices beyond its bars it is kept behind.

And, when you specify, you can then talk about the morality of whether or not it is ok to put such restrictions on the bird. But, when you do, who gets to make that decision? Animal rights activists? Buddhists? Humanity?

There isn't a "code" that says how you should treat others. It all comes down to how much compassion you feel for the bird, yes?

Maybe that's a little clearer...

Connor Lidell wrote: It must be on my end. hahaha. I'm just really bad at this today.

I'll give it one more go..

Is the caged bird denied freedom?

You can approach that from many sides, yes? Freedom to ____. Explore. Eat what it wants. See the world. Sing its song whenever it wants to. Breathe.

In my opinion, you need to be more specific. The caged bird is denied freedom to make choices beyond its bars it is kept behind.

And, when you specify, you can then talk about the morality of whether or not it is ok to put such restrictions on the bird. But, when you do, who gets to make that decision? Animal rights activists? Buddhists? Humanity?

There isn't a "code" that says how you should treat others. It all comes down to how much compassion you feel for the bird, yes?

Maybe that's a little clearer...

I grant you freedom from this forum topic.... Fly Connor be free

Jestor wrote:

ren wrote:

Ren threw the word rape in the convo to be salacious and to highlight abuse.

Uh, no? I don't think there should be a differenciation between personal violations on the grounds of them being sexual or not. Hence why I used the word rape the way Jestor explained.

I had a feeling of that, once I read the orgin...

And, this is definetly a language issue at times like that... The word was from french, and being french, you used it like it was created for, like the word 'plan' in one of our long ago convos, lol... :laugh:

++++++++
Rickie, I think he meant 'you' as in 'mankind', not 'rickie'....

Not really to do with being french no, but with other modern uses of the word. In gaming there is a thing called "base raping" for instance, and it has nothing to do with forced sex. It's an extreme violation/humiliation with no escape.

Donkey wrote: I grant you freedom from this forum topic.... Fly Connor be free

I don't appreciate that.

Connor Lidell wrote:

Donkey wrote: I grant you freedom from this forum topic.... Fly Connor be free

I don't appreciate that.

it was an attempt at humor, my apologies

Hahahah. I know. It was funny. But, I am really trying to communicate what I'm talking about. Somehow it's not getting across.

Connor Lidell wrote: Hahahah. I know. It was funny. But, I am really trying to communicate what I'm talking about. Somehow it's not getting across.

I was grooving with you when you were talking about situational freedom vs overarching freedom, but lost you when you got into morality.

Well. Ok.

Let's get into morality for a bit. How about this... can we try something different?

Do you think it is morally acceptable to keep a bird in a cage? Yes or no or maybe or sometimes, and why?

If you answer those two questions, maybe I can see where you are, and lead off of that.

Connor Lidell wrote: Well. Ok.

Let's get into morality for a bit. How about this... can we try something different?

Do you think it is morally acceptable to keep a bird in a cage? Yes or no or maybe or sometimes, and why?

If you answer those two questions, maybe I can see where you are, and lead off of that.

Have you ever read watership down?

Yes.

Connor Lidell wrote: Yes.

Then you know my answer to your question

Just right off the bat i read the first few posts and am late to the topic so I am sorry if I am saying what somebody said because I would not know. It reminds me of something Eric Fromm said about freedom and the concept of negative and positive freedom. In short freedom from(negative) and freedom to(positive).

Negative freedom is like the "Do whatever you want" mentality(The government cannot interfere with what you can and cannot do, you self manage yourself and are opened to all the worries and highs it brings the bonus is you rely on no one but yourself)

Positive freedom is "Be all you can be" mentality(a person with guaranteed healthcare, housing, food, water does have to worry about surviving the next day and instead focus on what he wants to do because of the free time he has)(socialism/communism is in this direction and also a mixture of the negative type as well ultimately)

My opinion is that neither bird is truly free so I would choose neither(but the "free" bird looks better) Negative and Positive freedoms I think are interesting and persuasive ideas. SO on that the caged bird should be allowed to fly and do what he wants(without being a bother to others) and still be able to count on having those guaranteed and necessary things for life.

I wonder if some people are so terrified by possibility that they can't handle being "free." Freedom typically comes to us in stages, anyway. It is bewildering to think "I can do anything" and then to pick what to do. And so many of us pick wrong or have regrets about what we picked x_O

I'm not really coming to any conclusions here, just observing.

http://youtu.be/Gc11mJGre10

Some of us are free, though most of us are caged. It has been posited in this thread that we have caged ourselves. Partly this is true. How then did we manage this? Answer: Ignorance. Many are so preoccupied with the cornucopia of entertainments, that is our media that we have allowed ourselves to become distracted from the important issues that will effect us in the worst ways. Many have been conditioned to accept, nay swallow media propaganda. There are too many poor, stupid, blind people who no longer understand the value of thinking for one's self, or even why they should. No one seems to want to be bothered with mundane activities such as fact checking, research, or original thought. Those are the people who never knew they were free. They will remain blissfully asleep until events occur to sufficiently rouse them from the slumber of ignorance.