Caged or Free?

Your point was that freedom isn't just a state of mind, right?

My point was that freedom beyond state of mind doesn't have anything to do with philosophy or matters of the mind.

Donkey wrote: maybe for some freedom isnt simply just a state of mind.
warning some viewers may find this distressing


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6ACE-BBPRs

Looks like an act to me.

Also, why do they force feed prisoners? It's not like guantanamo bay is a 5 star resort for friends of the united states. they don't want to eat? let them be. or is it that suicide is a crime in the US?

Actually, assisted suicide is. I wonder what people would be saying if they let all their prisoners starve to death? "US Govt. Starves Prisoners!" Boo hiss.

Good question. Why don't we let them starve themselves to death if they CHOOSE to?

Connor Lidell wrote: Your point was that freedom isn't just a state of mind, right?

sometimes....

My point was that freedom beyond state of mind doesn't have anything to do with philosophy or matters of the mind.

you said earlier a slave could just escape if they didn't want slavery (paraphrasing), which kinda puts the onus of slavery on the slave. if this is true then freedom has everything to do with philosophy and matters of the mind.

ren wrote:
Also, why do they force feed prisoners? It's not like guantanamo bay is a 5 star resort for friends of the united states. they don't want to eat? let them be. or is it that suicide is a crime in the US?

if moammar could see you now he would be very disappointed :whistle:

you said earlier a slave could just escape if they didn't want slavery (paraphrasing), which kinda puts the onus of slavery on the slave. if this is true then freedom has everything to do with philosophy and matters of the mind.

Yes, but we're talking about two completely different things.

Slavery of the body
Slavery of the mind.

One exists, one does not. The topic of this thread is about slavery of the mind. Does the caged bird know he's not free if he's given everything he wants? This is not a topic of the body.

Slavery of the body is one that we cannot change. There is nothing to discuss when it comes to the morality of keeping a bird caged. The answer is don't keep the bird caged. It's simple. Should they force feed the prisoners? No. That's it. There's no argument about what is "right" and what is "wrong" because they don't matter. The point is that the caged bird needs to reconcile it's reality (freeing itself from slavery of the mind), then make a decision about freedom of the body.

Connor Lidell wrote: Yes, but we're talking about two completely different things.

Slavery of the body
Slavery of the mind.

One exists, one does not. The topic of this thread is about slavery of the mind.

im sorry but im having a hard time following your line of thinking.... it sounds like your contention is that the mind can't be enslaved/controlled/ caged. if that is your argument i would point to water boarding, drug addiction, and mental illness (among others)as proof that the mind can in fact be enslaved.

Connor Lidell wrote:

. There is nothing to discuss when it comes to the morality of keeping a bird caged. The answer is don't keep the bird caged. It's simple. .

So your saying it's imoral to keep a bird in a cage? :huh:

Should they force feed the prisoners? No. That's it. There's no argument about what is "right" and what is "wrong" because they don't matter.

They don't matter? To who?

The point is that the caged bird needs to reconcile it's reality (freeing itself from slavery of the mind), then make a decision about freedom of the body

Can a bird do that?

and what about my poor doggie? Should I let her run free? Would she be happier if she ran free? Would she really be free or am I just imposing what I think is free for her?

It has nothing to do with morality, Ricky.

Right and Wrong matter not because the only thing that does matter is action and response. And, it's individual to each and every perspective involved.

A bird cannot.

And, as for your dog, it doesn't matter. You're dealing with morality, and this has nothing to do with what is moral. Freedom doesn't have anything to do with what you think is imposing freedom. If you let the dog go, and he has a worse life... then his Freedom is the choice to return or not. Of course, a dog's mentality doesn't work that way. This physical freedom is so touchy because everybody thinks that a physical location has much to do with anything. A prisoner might be happier in jail where they are safe from the people who want to kill him outside of the jail. Some are more comfortable there. The more you try and pin down Freedom of the Body to some kind of rectifiable solution, then you are excluding something else. There's no point.

Back to the bird example. Why should you keep the bird caged? You place value in that bird why? You'll come up with something that is selfish (meaning it should be let go because you're a selfish bastard and want to hear the bird's song every morning), you'll say you can be emotionally attached to the animal (which is fine, but it's still selfish since the animal cannot have a similar connection), or you'll say that value is in the cost of the animal (meaning you're giving in to society values). I may have missed some, but they generally fall into that category. In the end, there's no moral reason to keep a bird.

Which is where it gets interesting. I love my dog, and I understand that I am keeping him against his will. Over time, I have conditioned him to respond to my commands and stay at home because we feed him, and he has no other skills (except for inherited ones) to gather food. I understand I am limiting his physical and mental freedom, but so what? I don't feel anything morally right or wrong about it. It's stupid to think that way too. Dogs cannot sense morality. They sense food. End. Of. Story. If I don't feed him, somebody else will or he'll find food or he'll die. I like him at home, so I keep him here. That's it. Freedom of the Body is not a moral issue.

Freedom of the mind is. And, when something is a moral issue, it is always about the self. So, there's nothing to discuss there either. It's all internal. You can believe you're free or you can limit your perspective. Your choice.