Caged or Free?

im sorry but im having a hard time following your line of thinking.... it sounds like your contention is that the mind can't be enslaved/controlled/ caged. if that is your argument i would point to water boarding, drug addiction, and mental illness (among others)as proof that the mind can in fact be enslaved.

You're attaching a generalization to a concept that is so ambiguous it is impossible to pin down. You say that drug addiction is enslaving the mind, but that doesn't mean anything.

Drug addiction causes the mind to be addicted. That's it. Freedom is an abstract, something you apply to situations. And, because of that, no, Drug addiction does not equal enslavement. You cannot apply concepts to biological conditions. Or, at least, I refuse to.

I don't think arthritis is enslaving the body. Arthritis causes my joints not to work so well. That's it. It has nothing to do with "concepts" that surround it that are only applicable in the abstract. Does that make any more sense?

Connor Lidell wrote: You cannot apply concepts to biological conditions. Or, at least, I refuse to.

I don't think arthritis is enslaving the body. Arthritis causes my joints not to work so well. That's it. It has nothing to do with "concepts" that surround it that are only applicable in the abstract. Does that make any more sense?

nope... my grandmother had severe rheumatoid arthritis, i wouldn't say she was enslaved but she was not physically free to get up and move around. her physical condition severely limited her control over many activities. if you have no control you have no freedom.... limited control - limited freedom.
physical freedom for her was not an "abstract concept".
mental illness follows along with this logic when talking about free thought.

One of the things I always wondered was in regards to those whom have become homeless and have nothing left.

Would it not be easy for someone in that position (especially in winter) to break the law to become incarcerated, at the end of the day to a homeless person surely 3 square meals a day, access to gym facilities, work, education etc and a warm bed is a more inviting prospect than spending a night on an icy cold street. with the only price being that there is no freedom outside of the walls for a while.

It's just something I pondered, I know myself that given the choice between the two, prison seems like the sensible option as opposed to the alternative.

*I know slightly off topic but still worthy of note I thought.

her physical condition severely limited her control over many activities.

YES. This is it. This is what I'm talking about. Yes, her condition limited her control over her activities. That's it. Nothing to do with freedom, right? Freedom is a concept that you apply to situations, but has little to do with the situation.

It is like calling a ball Blue. Yes, it may be blue but that has nothing to do with its function as a ball. Freedom is just the condition of an object. It's unnecessary to speak of it in abstract terms. I want to "free" my grandmother. No... you want to "remove limits to her physical condition".

Adding unnecessary concepts just blurs more lines.

Connor Lidell wrote:

her physical condition severely limited her control over many activities.

YES. This is it. This is what I'm talking about. Yes, her condition limited her control over her activities. That's it. Nothing to do with freedom, right? Freedom is a concept that you apply to situations, but has little to do with the situation.

ok but but you are grossly underestimating the limitations of her freedom to move!!! that more than just "a concept that you apply to situations". that's a big deal. in an environment where she could not get support/help/aid she would die. people who are in that situation often refer to it as a cage.

Yes, I agree with you. I don't doubt the severity of the situation.

Wendaline wrote: Actually, assisted suicide is. I wonder what people would be saying if they let all their prisoners starve to death? "US Govt. Starves Prisoners!" Boo hiss.

I'm not suggesting that the gvt starves the prisoners to death, simply that they do not force-feed them. Wouldn't you agree that force-feeding is a form of rape? (insertion of foreign objects into someone against their will)

Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of human freedoms - to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances.

Viktor E. Frankl

Connor Lidell wrote: Yes, I agree with you. I don't doubt the severity of the situation.

Ren wrote

I'm not suggesting that the gvt starves the prisoners to death, simply that they do not force-feed them. Wouldn't you agree that force-feeding is a form of rape? (insertion of foreign objects into someone against their will)


No!!!! It lacks the sexual component to be considered rape

Donkey wrote:

Connor Lidell wrote: Yes, I agree with you. I don't doubt the severity of the situation.

Ren wrote

I'm not suggesting that the gvt starves the prisoners to death, simply that they do not force-feed them. Wouldn't you agree that force-feeding is a form of rape? (insertion of foreign objects into someone against their will)


No!!!! It lacks the sexual component to be considered rape

Rape is not a "sexual" violation, it is a violent one defined as forced penetration with a foreign object.

I guess when a prisoner starves themselves it becomes considered some form of delusion (either a form of escape or the false belief in surviving without food), and then the medical intervention to keep them healthy/alive is to force feed them.

That is more like it, I think.

Escapism is unhealthy, yes?

Adder wrote: I guess when a prisoner starves themselves it becomes considered some form of delusion (either a form of escape or the false belief in could beving without food), and then the medical intervention to keep them healthy/alive is to force feed them.

Damn this thread moves quick....

Lol...

If someone loses the capacity to know what good for them, then the "caretakers" do what they think is best...

+±++++++
Earlier, someone said, about torture, how the mind could be broken...

Arent there stories of people not succumbing to torture, and being killed by the torturers?

What of mind over matter? No?

Brenna wrote:

Donkey wrote:

Connor Lidell wrote: Yes, I agree with you. I don't doubt the severity of the situation.

Ren wrote

I'm not suggesting that the gvt starves the prisoners to death, simply that they do not force-feed them. Wouldn't you agree that force-feeding is a form of rape? (insertion of foreign objects into someone against their will)


No!!!! It lacks the sexual component to be considered rape

Rape is not a "sexual" violation, it is a violent one defined as forced penetration with a foreign object.

I respect your definition but my dictionary says different

Donkey wrote:

Brenna wrote:

Donkey wrote:

Connor Lidell wrote: Yes, I agree with you. I don't doubt the severity of the situation.

Ren wrote

I'm not suggesting that the gvt starves the prisoners to death, simply that they do not force-feed them. Wouldn't you agree that force-feeding is a form of rape? (insertion of foreign objects into someone against their will)


No!!!! It lacks the sexual component to be considered rape

Rape is not a "sexual" violation, it is a violent one defined as forced penetration with a foreign object.

I respect your definition but my dictionary says different

so if you, let's say, fist someone's throat, it's not rape?

Arent there stories of people not succumbing to torture, and being killed by the torturers?

What of mind over matter? No?

Are you saying that a mind is free if it manages to cause its own destruction to escape suffering? I think you've been watching too much matrix.

Donkey wrote:

Brenna wrote:

Donkey wrote:

Connor Lidell wrote: Yes, I agree with you. I don't doubt the severity of the situation.

Ren wrote

I'm not suggesting that the gvt starves the prisoners to death, simply that they do not force-feed them. Wouldn't you agree that force-feeding is a form of rape? (insertion of foreign objects into someone against their will)


No!!!! It lacks the sexual component to be considered rape

Rape is not a "sexual" violation, it is a violent one defined as forced penetration with a foreign object.

I respect your definition but my dictionary says different

Just so we're talking about the same thing, are you disagreeing with the definition of rape being an act of violence, or the definition of what constitutes rape?

Brenna wrote:

Rape is not a "sexual" violation, it is a violent one defined as forced penetration with a foreign object.

I respect your definition but my dictionary says different[/quote]

Just so we're talking about the same thing, are you disagreeing with the definition of rape being an act of violence, or the definition of what constitutes rape?[/quote]

rape[ reyp ]
noun
1. the unlawful compelling of a person through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.
2. any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.

While I think force feeding detainees is ugly and violent I don't think it meets the definition of rape.

ren wrote:

Wendaline wrote: Actually, assisted suicide is. I wonder what people would be saying if they let all their prisoners starve to death? "US Govt. Starves Prisoners!" Boo hiss.

I'm not suggesting that the gvt starves the prisoners to death, simply that they do not force-feed them. Wouldn't you agree that force-feeding is a form of rape? (insertion of foreign objects into someone against their will)

Hehe, my point was if the US Govt. let people starve themselves to death while in prison the headlines would read as if they were forcing the prisoners to starve.

And yes, force feeding does seem like a form of rape...then again many medical things could seem that way. Like keeping 95 year old grandma alive even if she wants to die...and sometimes after she does. Revive her now!

I guess the question is what do you do with enemies of the state? Do you let them commit suicide or do you keep them alive long enough to get the information or leverage that you need? The business of government is not a pretty one.

And if you are a prisoner do you add to your own suffering by mentally and physically trying to reject everything, or do you allow yourself to calm down and try to make the best of a bad situation?

Ren threw the word rape in the convo to be salacious and to highlight abuse. I think he went to far but if you don't that's fine. The larger issue is the freedom which has been stripped away from these men.
I can imagine a world where physical and psychological pressures are so great that someone could feel not free on any level, even mentally. I think Connor disagrees.