Hey! Let's Open The Vaccination Can Of Worms!

Reacher wrote: I WANT the neurotoxins

Say what?

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Reacher wrote: X amount of this mercury-containing compound seems to be okay.

That is not what the studies are showing at all.

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Reacher wrote: I've got to place a little trust somewhere. I guess I'll place it in ... the scientific community

I concur so here you go:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21350943

Integrating experimental (in vitro and in vivo) neurotoxicity studies of low-dose thimerosal relevant to vaccines.

Neurochem Res. 2011 Jun;36(6):927-38. doi: 10.1007/s11064-011-0427-0. Epub 2011 Feb 25.

"activity of low doses of Thimerosal against isolated human and animal brain cells was found in all studies and is consistent with Hg(mercury) neurotoxicity"

animal studies have shown that exposure to Thimerosal-Hg(mercury) can lead to accumulation of inorganic Hg(mercury) in brain, and that (d) doses relevant to TCV(Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines) exposure possess the potential to affect human neuro-development. Thimerosal at concentrations relevant for infants' exposure (in vaccines) is toxic to cultured human-brain cells and to laboratory animals.

Red_Eye_Jedi wrote: Thimerosal at concentrations relevant for infants' exposure (in vaccines) is toxic to cultured human-brain cells and to laboratory animals.

So is alcohol, artificial sugar, the chemicals used to fire proof babies clothing and bedding, many food additives, chemicals found in all manner of cosmetics and personal care items, including baby care stuff and much of the plastic containers we keep our food and water in.


Which makes me wonder how this became such a "thing" with people being so obstinate about it one way or another. Especially since it usually follows that when consumers demand something, like BPA free plastic, the alternative products become available.

Also, correct me if Im wrong, but didn't the doctor who made the original claims about the lack of safety of vaccinations admit that he made it all up?

On a more personal level though. Ive had all the standard vaccines (and more since the USA government seems to think im coming from a third world country) and I have a couple reeeealy old metal fillings, and eat fish like its going out of style. So far, I'm not dead from preventable viruses and bacteria (yay me), I have no neurological issues, and sure, I may end up with heavy metal toxicity from the filthy filthy tuna, but at least I get to eat my sushi in peace.

Like ANY of these studies, they point to increased risks of problems, and seldom to definite and confirmed links to these sorts of things as the cause of issues.

I note that in your quoting of the study you missed this part "Doses relevant to TCV exposure possess the potential to affect human neuro-development". The POTENTIAL, not IT WILL.

The study also notes a desire to lower the levels to a "sufficiently non toxic level compatible with repeated exposure". Not that they think it should be removed altogether, suggesting that they believe that at a certain level, it does not pose a risk.




PS
I though the whole shouting in colour thing was fun so I thought Id give it a go, because you know, that's how I make sure people are paying attention to my opinion.

This is how I feel commenting on this post.



Since I do have a degree in human physoilogy I should say some things. Fun Facts, The Human Body actual has trace amounts of Hg (Mercury) in it and actually uses it in some Metabolic Pathways . Without Hg in the body you get Hyperuricemia .

Mercury it'self is actually not dangerous it's only when it oxidises or reacts with certain elements that it becomes dangerous. Most fish (expect for like tilapia) have high lvls of mercury. The top predators have higher lvls.

It takes a high amount of exposure to have real effects. Fun Fact the saying "mad as a hatter" comes from the fact that hatters used to use tanning agents that had mercury in them. after years of exposure it would drive them mad.

Brenna wrote: So is alcohol...

Your argument goes something like this:

Bananas are radioactive.

U232 is also radioactive.

Therefor:

It is ok to wear tongue rings made out of pure U232.

Let me remind you that Diethylmercury and dimethylmercury are considered some of the most potent neurotoxins ever discovered. (source Aschner, M., and J. Aschner (1990) "Mercury Neurotoxicity: Mechanisms of Blood-brain Barrier Transport." Neuroscience & Biobehavioral Reviews, 14 (2): 169–76.)

This isn't something you want to expose yourself to in any amount, for any purpose.

What the current research shows is at levels given to infants it's still extremely neurotoxic.

If you can avoid eating food contaminated with it, it's a smart move to avoid it.

If you can avoid shooting into your veins, it's a smart move to avoid it.

If you avoid to replacing your teeth it, it's a smart move to avoid it.

This reasoning that there are other poisons in our environment so it's ok escapes me.

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Brenna wrote: Also, correct me if Im wrong, but didn't the doctor who made the original claims about the lack of safety of vaccinations admit that he made it all up?

On of the coauthors was recently exonerated, but the point here is not if vaccines cause autism, but rather that thimerosal is a potent and proven neurotoxin.

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Brenna wrote: paraphrased: I've had vaccines, mercury fillings, and eat tuna, and I am ok

You can cut out half your brain and make a recovery, doesn't mean you should if you can help it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MKNsI5CWoU

Vesha wrote: Mercury it'self is actually not dangerous it's only when it oxidises or reacts with certain elements that it becomes dangerous.

I agree that we were told that, just like we were told that the mercury in dental amalgams was fixed and could not leave teeth.

That was proven false.

They loaded up sheep with a mouth full of dental amalgams to see what would happen:

"Mercury from dental "silver" tooth fillings impairs sheep kidney function."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1928419

Here you can watch mercury vapor escape from dental fillings heated slightly or with mechanical stimulation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ylnQ-T7oiA

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Vesha wrote: Since I do have a degree

Vesha wrote: The Human Body actual has trace amounts of Hg (Mercury) in it and actually uses it in some Metabolic Pathways.

Without Hg in the body you get Hyperuricemia.

FALSE.

I quote text books here (in red) as well for you:

http://dhss.delaware.gov/dhss/dph/files/mercurylab.pdf

"Mercury has no known biological function and is highly toxic."

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http://aem.asm.org/content/79/19/5787.full.pdf

"Mercury has no known biological function and instead can be quite toxic in a multitude of forms. Vorobev et al. (p. 5918–5926)"

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http://www.state.nj.us/dep/dsr/vol2-Chapter6.pdf

"Mercury and mercury compounds have no known beneficial biological function."

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http://www.netl.doe.gov/publications/proceedings/03/valuing-ext/posters/Ralston.pdf

"Hg(mercury), which is without biological function"

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https://marine.rutgers.edu/pubs/private/Crane_et_al_FunBio_2010.pdf

"Mercury is a highly toxic metal with no known biological function"

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https://www.pwrc.usgs.gov/eisler/CHR_10_Mercury.pdf

"mercury and its compounds have no known biological function, and the presence of the metal in the cells of living organisms is undesirable and potentially hazardous"

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https://books.google.com/books?id=LYUM3jz1sVYC&pg=PA161&lpg=PA161&dq=mercury+hg+%22no+known+biological+function%22&source=bl&ots=bhnzp9bjfx&sig=RTe97PZgLNVZrGZW7sF2IULx6OM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=CZTZVOvZLMylNuGGhPgB&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAg

"Mercury has no known biological function in living organisms."

Environmental Chemistry and Toxicology of Mercury

Guangliang Liu, Yong Cai, Nelson O'Driscoll
Wiley, Dec 5, 2011 - Medical - 448 pages

About the author (2011)

Guangliang Liu, PhD, is Research Scientist in the Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry, Florida International University,where he manages the Mercury Laboratory.

Yong Cai, PhD, is Professor in the Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry, Florida International University. He has been working on environmental chemistry and the geochemistry of mercury for almost twenty years.

Nelson O'Driscoll, PhD, is Canada Research Chair in Environmental Biogeochemistry and Associate Professor in the Department of Earth and Environmental Science, AcadiaUniversity.

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https://books.google.com/books?id=Soovc_GOk48C&pg=PA414&dq=mercury+hg+%22biological+function%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-JXZVMmmLcejgwTik4CYBg&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=mercury%20hg%20%22biological%20function%22&f=false

Heavy Metals in Soils: Trace Metals and Metalloids in Soils and their Bioavailability

-Brian J. Alloway
Springer Science & Business Media, Jul 18, 2012

"No essential biological function of Hg(mercury) is known. On the contrary, Hg(mercury) is among the most toxic elements to man and many higher animals. All chemical forms of Hg(mercury) are toxic to humans"


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Again I urge you and the rest of the "mercury isn't so bad" crew to see for yourself:
This is a video by the University of Calgary:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=xf6uCw2ztxw

Red eye, if thats your entire point, then we could have wrapped this up ages ago. No one said that its a health tonic and we should be dosing with it daily. But, like most studies and sciency stuffs, its also not the whole story either.

and the banana, radioactive tongue rings.... not what I was saying at all, but you know that. My point is that all things have a level of potential risk, we chose to accept them based on what we feel the potential benefits are.

Ive spent a merry evening reading studies and bits of books on this whole thing (yes, i'm weird but its interesting), and I had about three pages of discussion all typed up completely with study references etc. But really whats the point.

But, I have the studies if youd like them. 22 of them to be exact. The one that really stood out for me however was the one that found "Neurotoxic effects of postnatal thimerosal are mouse strain dependent." Which means that yes, they found it to be a neurotoxin, but not in all mice. The study points to a variety of genetic and environmental factors that affected whether the thimerosal had a neurotoxic effect.

And as we know, mice are not people and they have not found a confirmed link between the thimerosal in vaccines and neurological issues, toxicity or autism. So yes, we are sure its toxic... to some mice, not even all mice.

More to the point, they stopped using it in the majority of vaccines in 2001. So why is this even a thing?

However, tireless assault on this topic aside. As Jedi, (and mostly not scientists doing the research or doctors administering the doses) our considerations are mostly ethical. Personally, I believe its unethical not to vaccinate. You willingly endanger others. And that is the antithesis of the concept of the Jedi is it not?

There is a reason that so many diseases have been removed from our day to day experiences, and no Kitsu, using soap and water and eating well helps encourage the immune system, but it does not guarantee that it is strong enough to fight off diseases like the ones vaccinated against.

BUT, you do raise an interesting thought.

The reality is that without vaccines, more people die. Full stop. In the past, before vaccines, more people died. Lots of them. And some didn't. The ones with the stronger immune systems and potentially hardier genetics survived. Now, we create artificially boosted immune systems that prevent these diseases regardless of the natural strength of the person.

So in effect, anti vaxxers could well accidentally create an environment where we naturally have our overwhelmingly large herd culled and only those with the genetic and physical fortitude to survive will continue on.

Its not a pretty reality, but I wonder if everyone would think it a bad outcome.



Edit - I had another thought about this as I posted. The comment someone made about anti vaxxers and climate change deniers entrenching further into their beliefs when presented with evidence. The psychology of refusing to change ones beliefs despite being offered undeniable evidence is hardly a new area of exploration. The stories we hear and tell are much more cognitively assessable than pure facts.

• Axiom 1: The conclusion of a syllogism is true if and only if both of its premises are true.
• Premise 1a: Compund C of a toxic element in all relevant concentrations causes an independantly verifiable negative effect on a statistically significant subset S of exposed subjects.
• Premise 1b: Vaccine V contains a relevant concentration of C.
• Conclusion 1 from Premises 1a and 1b: Therefore there is an independantly verifiable negative effect on S who through injection of V were exposed to C.
• Premise 2: Conclusion 1 is false.
• Conclusion 2 from Premise 2 and Axiom 1: Therefore not both Premise 1a and Premise 1b are true.
• Conclusion 2 after application of De Morgan's law: Therefore either Premise 1a or Premise 1b or both Premise 1a and Premise 1b are false.

Debate settled.
Carry on.

Gisteron wrote: Debate settled.
Carry on.

This is why I love logic. You see how simple that was?

Brenna wrote: then we could have wrapped this up ages ago.

Indeed it has been since page 11 or so.

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Brenna wrote: they stopped using it in the majority of vaccines in 2001. So why is this even a thing?

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3018252/

J Pediatr Pharmacol Ther. 2010 Jul-Sep; 15(3): 173–181.



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Brenna wrote: So why is this even a thing?

Picture this, all mercury based preservatives get removed from vaccines, but now by law the doctor has to hit you in the back of the head hard enough to render you unconscious each time you get vaccinated.

But you say, that's absurd how on earth does that even make sense to mandate such absurdity?

Everyone else looks at you as if the question you just asked was outrageous and nonsensical.

"Well that is just the way things are and these vaccines help people, so you gotta take the good with the bad!"

"Quit rocking the boat!" They say. "It's fine. I've been knocked unconscious 82 times and I am still fine."

The situation itself is just as absurd as this one.

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Brenna wrote: I believe its unethical not to vaccinate.

I am not anti vaccination, I am against shooting yourself up with one of the most potent neurotoxins we know of.
Saying maybe we shouldn't spray our our fruits and vegetables with potent neruotoxins, doesn't mean you are against fruits and vegetables either.

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Brenna wrote: refusing to change ones beliefs despite being offered undeniable evidence

I've done just that, and yet look at the pushback.

Gisteron wrote: Debate settled.
Carry on.

Here is what we know:

Mercury from fillings does leak even though were told that was impossible. It is toxic to the kidneys.

It is not safe to eat large amounts of mercury contaminated fish like white albacore tuna, on a daily basis.

Mercury and especially mercury based compounds like Diethylmercury and dimethylmercury are considered some of the most potent neurotoxins ever discovered.

Thiomersal in concentrations relevant to the low levels infants might receive is still incredibly toxic to cultured human brain tissue, and to lab animals.

Any reasonable person can conclude that if possible they should minimize their exposure to mercury and mercury based compounds.

The debate is indeed settled.