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Hey! Let's Open The Vaccination Can Of Worms!
10 Feb 2015 14:28 #180940
by Gisteron
Better to leave questions unanswered than answers unquestioned
Replied by Gisteron on topic Hey! Let's Open The Vaccination Can Of Worms!
So where is that measurable permanent brain damage most of us should be suffering from?
Better to leave questions unanswered than answers unquestioned
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10 Feb 2015 14:38 #180941
by Edan
It won't let me have a blank signature ...
Replied by Edan on topic Re:Hey! Let's Open The Vaccination Can Of Worms!
I think the word 'might' in your post red eye show that the conclusion on it hasn't been reached, as Brenna pointed out with the mice.
It won't let me have a blank signature ...
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10 Feb 2015 14:50 - 10 Feb 2015 14:53 #180943
by
You might survive a fall from a skyscraper if you roll yourself in enough bubble wrap, you might not get bone cancer if you eat 500mg of strontium 90 each day for the rest of your life. What we are talking about is one of the most potent neurotoxins ever discovered. We know it is indeed toxic to cultured human brain tissue and lab animals at doses relevant to those infants receive. There is zero doubt it's not a good idea to inject yourself with it.
[hr]
I am sure we will get in a circular loop here.
If I show you a large group of the population (that is quickly growing), with characteristics consistent with mercury poisoning, it will be written off as there is no definitive link between mercury and that group of people.
It is not enough to show a large percentage of the population affected with ailments that mimic mercury poisoning, it is necessary to prove it.
Replied by on topic Hey! Let's Open The Vaccination Can Of Worms!
Edan wrote: I think the word 'might' in your post red eye show that the conclusion on it hasn't been reached, as Brenna pointed out with the mice.
You might survive a fall from a skyscraper if you roll yourself in enough bubble wrap, you might not get bone cancer if you eat 500mg of strontium 90 each day for the rest of your life. What we are talking about is one of the most potent neurotoxins ever discovered. We know it is indeed toxic to cultured human brain tissue and lab animals at doses relevant to those infants receive. There is zero doubt it's not a good idea to inject yourself with it.
[hr]
Gisteron wrote: So where is that measurable permanent brain damage most of us should be suffering from?
I am sure we will get in a circular loop here.
If I show you a large group of the population (that is quickly growing), with characteristics consistent with mercury poisoning, it will be written off as there is no definitive link between mercury and that group of people.
It is not enough to show a large percentage of the population affected with ailments that mimic mercury poisoning, it is necessary to prove it.
Last edit: 10 Feb 2015 14:53 by .
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10 Feb 2015 15:11 #180945
by Gisteron
Better to leave questions unanswered than answers unquestioned
Replied by Gisteron on topic Hey! Let's Open The Vaccination Can Of Worms!
You should contact the James Randi Educational Foundation because apparently you know more about where I was going than did I... for the second time now, I might add. Anyway, whether you meet their million dollar challenge or not, you don't get to dismiss my inquiry for evidence against Premise 2 by just predicting that I'd be shifting the goal post. You can call me out on it all you like once I do if I do, thank you very much.Red_Eye_Jedi wrote:
Gisteron wrote: So where is that measurable permanent brain damage most of us should be suffering from?
I am sure we will get in a circular loop here.
If I show you a large group of the population (that is quickly growing), with characteristics consistent with mercury poisoning, it will be written off as there is no definitive link between mercury and that group of people.
If you can demonstrate the falsehood of Premise 2, which can be done with showing a mere correlation (because a correlation is the only thing it is denying), my entire argument would collapse. If you want to set your bar higher still, be my guest, but don't accuse me of shifting it until I have.It is not enough to show a large percentage of the population affected with ailments that mimic mercury poisoning, it is necessary to prove it.
Better to leave questions unanswered than answers unquestioned
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10 Feb 2015 15:26 #180947
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It is not enough to show that 1 in 68 people in the US are afflicted with a disease which shares many characteristics with
Erethism aka mad hatter disease, it is not enough to show that mercury levels in fish are rising, it is not enough to show that rates of this disease are rising.
In short correlation is not causation, and its not something I can make a case for.
All I can make a case for is that mercury in all it's forms is best avoided as it is a proven and potent neurotoxin even at infant vaccine dose levels.
That is all that is being said, and there is no debate as to whether or not that is true. Indeed it is so.
Best wishes on your path friend.
Replied by on topic Hey! Let's Open The Vaccination Can Of Worms!
Gisteron wrote: ....
It is not enough to show that 1 in 68 people in the US are afflicted with a disease which shares many characteristics with
Erethism aka mad hatter disease, it is not enough to show that mercury levels in fish are rising, it is not enough to show that rates of this disease are rising.
In short correlation is not causation, and its not something I can make a case for.
All I can make a case for is that mercury in all it's forms is best avoided as it is a proven and potent neurotoxin even at infant vaccine dose levels.
That is all that is being said, and there is no debate as to whether or not that is true. Indeed it is so.
Best wishes on your path friend.
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10 Feb 2015 15:36 - 10 Feb 2015 15:39 #180948
by Gisteron
Better to leave questions unanswered than answers unquestioned
Replied by Gisteron on topic Hey! Let's Open The Vaccination Can Of Worms!
To destroy my argument it is, if you can also show that they are the same people who were vaccinated. Please, do show those things, then we'll have a case on our hands.Red_Eye_Jedi wrote: It is not enough to show that 1 in 68 people in the US are afflicted with a disease which shares many characteristics with
Erethism aka mad hatter disease, it is not enough to show that mercury levels in fish are rising, it is not enough to show that rates of this disease are rising.
Sorry, that's not the evidence. That's the claim.That is all that is being said, and there is no debate as to whether or not that is true. Indeed it is so.
Better to leave questions unanswered than answers unquestioned
Last edit: 10 Feb 2015 15:39 by Gisteron.
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10 Feb 2015 21:16 - 10 Feb 2015 21:40 #180979
by Brenna
Walking, stumbling on these shadowfeet
Part of the seduction of most religions is the idea that if you just say the right things and believe really hard, your salvation will be at hand.
With Jediism. No one is coming to save you. You have to get off your ass and do it yourself - Me
Replied by Brenna on topic Hey! Let's Open The Vaccination Can Of Worms!
The diagrams you provided dont disprove anything I had said. We know that mercury is still used in flu vaccines. no one disputed that. Only that its no longer present in the majority of vaccines, particularly the ones that children get.
However.
Fascinated to note on the diagrams that there is actually a vaccine for encephalitis... not something which was available when I was a child. And with a much higher level of mercury than the flu vaccines.
I rang my mother this morning and asked if she would have allowed me to have that vaccine even with its mercury levels. She said yes without any hesitation. Would have been preferable to the 4 weeks I spent in hospital at age 9, multiple lumbar punctures, daily blood tests.... oh yes and the almost dying from it thing.
Not to mention some of the lingering complications that I will always have.
As a side note, did you know that having measles drastically increases your chances of contracting encephalitis?
I may have tried to make this point already, but it seems to have escaped notice. Its a compromise. Accepting a level of risk to avoid a greater level of risk. And well worth it in my opinion.
However.
Fascinated to note on the diagrams that there is actually a vaccine for encephalitis... not something which was available when I was a child. And with a much higher level of mercury than the flu vaccines.
I rang my mother this morning and asked if she would have allowed me to have that vaccine even with its mercury levels. She said yes without any hesitation. Would have been preferable to the 4 weeks I spent in hospital at age 9, multiple lumbar punctures, daily blood tests.... oh yes and the almost dying from it thing.
Not to mention some of the lingering complications that I will always have.
As a side note, did you know that having measles drastically increases your chances of contracting encephalitis?
I may have tried to make this point already, but it seems to have escaped notice. Its a compromise. Accepting a level of risk to avoid a greater level of risk. And well worth it in my opinion.
Walking, stumbling on these shadowfeet
Part of the seduction of most religions is the idea that if you just say the right things and believe really hard, your salvation will be at hand.
With Jediism. No one is coming to save you. You have to get off your ass and do it yourself - Me
Last edit: 10 Feb 2015 21:40 by Brenna.
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10 Feb 2015 21:53 - 10 Feb 2015 21:55 #180980
by Brenna
And yet you're still going?
erm... this does not an argument make. The mercury was used as a preservative to prevent people from getting secondary infections from multi use vaccine vials. So.... they were trying to help people I guess... somewhat different from a random and arbitrary whack to the back of the head :woohoo:
I did not suggest you were. I was steering the subject to what I consider a useful conversation. The ethical (and jedi) considerations of the vaccination discussion.
I am deeply curious now though. How far does this avid concern over neurotoxins go for you. Of the many things (i believe I provided a partial list earlier) that are known neurotoxins that we continue to use anyway, how many do you actively avoid? Apart of course from vaccines and mercury fillings.
And more interestingly, whos responsibility to educate on the facts do you think it is. Supplier? Consumer? Government?
Walking, stumbling on these shadowfeet
Part of the seduction of most religions is the idea that if you just say the right things and believe really hard, your salvation will be at hand.
With Jediism. No one is coming to save you. You have to get off your ass and do it yourself - Me
Replied by Brenna on topic Hey! Let's Open The Vaccination Can Of Worms!
Red_Eye_Jedi wrote:
Brenna wrote: then we could have wrapped this up ages ago.
Indeed it has been since page 11 or so.
And yet you're still going?
Red_Eye_Jedi wrote: Picture this, all mercury based preservatives get removed from vaccines, but now by law the doctor has to hit you in the back of the head hard enough to render you unconscious each time you get vaccinated.
But you say, that's absurd how on earth does that even make sense to mandate such absurdity?
Everyone else looks at you as if the question you just asked was outrageous and nonsensical.
"Well that is just the way things are and these vaccines help people, so you gotta take the good with the bad!"
"Quit rocking the boat!" They say. "It's fine. I've been knocked unconscious 82 times and I am still fine."
The situation itself is just as absurd as this one.
erm... this does not an argument make. The mercury was used as a preservative to prevent people from getting secondary infections from multi use vaccine vials. So.... they were trying to help people I guess... somewhat different from a random and arbitrary whack to the back of the head :woohoo:
Red_Eye_Jedi wrote: I am not anti vaccination, I am against shooting yourself up with one of the most potent neurotoxins we know of.
Saying maybe we shouldn't spray our our fruits and vegetables with potent neruotoxins, doesn't mean you are against fruits and vegetables either.
I did not suggest you were. I was steering the subject to what I consider a useful conversation. The ethical (and jedi) considerations of the vaccination discussion.
I am deeply curious now though. How far does this avid concern over neurotoxins go for you. Of the many things (i believe I provided a partial list earlier) that are known neurotoxins that we continue to use anyway, how many do you actively avoid? Apart of course from vaccines and mercury fillings.
And more interestingly, whos responsibility to educate on the facts do you think it is. Supplier? Consumer? Government?
Walking, stumbling on these shadowfeet
Part of the seduction of most religions is the idea that if you just say the right things and believe really hard, your salvation will be at hand.
With Jediism. No one is coming to save you. You have to get off your ass and do it yourself - Me
Last edit: 10 Feb 2015 21:55 by Brenna.
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10 Feb 2015 23:49 #180989
by steamboat28
A.Div
IP | Apprentice | Seminary | Degree
AMA | Vlog | Meditation
Replied by steamboat28 on topic Hey! Let's Open The Vaccination Can Of Worms!
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11 Feb 2015 08:46 #181022
by Brenna
Walking, stumbling on these shadowfeet
Part of the seduction of most religions is the idea that if you just say the right things and believe really hard, your salvation will be at hand.
With Jediism. No one is coming to save you. You have to get off your ass and do it yourself - Me
Replied by Brenna on topic Hey! Let's Open The Vaccination Can Of Worms!
Aware Im flogging a dead horse, but to circle back to the Jedi element of this discussion, this popped up on my newsfeed a few hours ago.
https://www.facebook.com/jennifer.hibbenwhite/posts/10155168515065632:0
This is my son Griffin, and he may have measles.
On February 9th, I received a phone call from York Region Public Health, informing me that Griffin, alongside my mother and I, was potentially exposed to the measles virus while attending a newborn weigh-in appointment at my doctor’s office in Markham on January 27th.
Griffin was 15 days old at the time.
I was informed that someone who later developed measles sat in the doctor’s waiting room between 1 hour before and 30 minutes before we arrived. I was also informed that measles is regarded as “airborne” and can stay in the air and on surfaces up to 2 hours after the infected person has left.
I was then asked if I had had the measles vaccine. I had.
Griffin. Griffin had not. Can not.
I was advised to not be around small children. If I worked in such an environment I would be written off work. I do work in such an environment; my home. Where I now sit with Griffin and my 3 year old, Aurelia, who has only been able to get one MMR vaccine so far. She is now, technically, exposed too. We are to sit tight and watch for symptoms: fever, cough, runny nose. If we develop any of these we are to call my doctor and arrange to come in under official medical precautions. We are to wait at home, in isolation, until February 17th, after which the 21 days of possible incubation will have passed and we are clear.
So, Griffin is now Schrödinger’s baby. Simultaneously with measles, and without it. Until he develops symptoms, or until a further 7 days pass. One or other.
And I’m angry. Angry as hell.
I won’t get angry at or blame the person in the waiting room. I would have likely done the same thing...you get sick, you go to the doctor. I have no idea what their story is and I will never know. But I do know one thing:
If you have chosen to not vaccinate yourself or your child, I blame you.
I blame you.
You have stood on the shoulders of our collective protection for too long. From that high height, we have given you the PRIVILEGE of our protection, for free. And in return, you gave me this week. A week from hell. Wherein I don’t know if my BABY will develop something that has DEATH as a potential outcome.
DEATH.
Now, let’s unpack this shall we. All out on the table.
You have NO IDEA what this “potential outcome” means. NO IDEA. I do. Unfortunately, I do.
You think you are protecting your children from thimerosal? You aren’t. It’s not in their vaccine.
You think you are protecting them from autism? You aren’t. There is no, none, nada, nothing in science that proves this. If you want to use google instead of science to “prove me wrong” then I am happy to call you an imbecile as well as misinformed.
You think you are protecting them through extracts and homeopathy and positive thoughts and Laws of Attraction and dancing by candlelight on a full moon? You aren’t. I PROTECT YOUR CHILD. We protect your child. By being concerned world citizens who care about ourselves, our fellow man, and our most vulnerable. So we vaccinate ourselves and our children.
You think you are protecting them by letting them eat their shovel full of dirt and reducing antibiotics and eating organic? You aren’t. As an unvaccinated person you are only protected by our good graces. WE LET YOU BE SO PRIVILEGED thanks to our willingness to vaccinate ourselves and our children.
You know what vaccines protect your children from? Pain. Suffering. Irreparable harm. Death.
And you would be the first to line up if you had an inkling of what the death of a child feels like. You would be crawling through the streets on your hands and knees, begging, BEGGING to get that vaccine into your precious babies because that is what I would have done, if I could, to save my daughter.
The fact is, there was no vaccine for her. Not for her illness. And she died. She died at age five and a half, and she is gone.
And I watch these arguments trotted out on Facebook and twitter citing false science and long discredited“studies” that just won’t stop and Jenny McCarthy quotes and “it’s MY choice” to not vaccinate...and I think...what would you have done if your child lay dying? Would you give them a scientifically proven, safe and effective vaccine and risk the minuscule likelihood of a side effect? Or would you let them go, knowing that at least they won’t develop autism (which they wouldn’t even develop anyway because SCIENCE)?
And don’t you DARE tell me that you wouldn’t vaccinate them then. Don’t you dare. You have no idea what it feels like to go through what we went through.
So, look at Griffin. Tell me why he gets to bear the brunt of your stupidity and reckless abuse of our protection? Tell me.
Seven more days until I know that my baby is safe. Seven more days.
How is your week going, anti-vaxxers?
https://www.facebook.com/jennifer.hibbenwhite/posts/10155168515065632:0
Warning: Spoiler!
Attachment h862a38a.jpg not found
This is my son Griffin, and he may have measles.
On February 9th, I received a phone call from York Region Public Health, informing me that Griffin, alongside my mother and I, was potentially exposed to the measles virus while attending a newborn weigh-in appointment at my doctor’s office in Markham on January 27th.
Griffin was 15 days old at the time.
I was informed that someone who later developed measles sat in the doctor’s waiting room between 1 hour before and 30 minutes before we arrived. I was also informed that measles is regarded as “airborne” and can stay in the air and on surfaces up to 2 hours after the infected person has left.
I was then asked if I had had the measles vaccine. I had.
Griffin. Griffin had not. Can not.
I was advised to not be around small children. If I worked in such an environment I would be written off work. I do work in such an environment; my home. Where I now sit with Griffin and my 3 year old, Aurelia, who has only been able to get one MMR vaccine so far. She is now, technically, exposed too. We are to sit tight and watch for symptoms: fever, cough, runny nose. If we develop any of these we are to call my doctor and arrange to come in under official medical precautions. We are to wait at home, in isolation, until February 17th, after which the 21 days of possible incubation will have passed and we are clear.
So, Griffin is now Schrödinger’s baby. Simultaneously with measles, and without it. Until he develops symptoms, or until a further 7 days pass. One or other.
And I’m angry. Angry as hell.
I won’t get angry at or blame the person in the waiting room. I would have likely done the same thing...you get sick, you go to the doctor. I have no idea what their story is and I will never know. But I do know one thing:
If you have chosen to not vaccinate yourself or your child, I blame you.
I blame you.
You have stood on the shoulders of our collective protection for too long. From that high height, we have given you the PRIVILEGE of our protection, for free. And in return, you gave me this week. A week from hell. Wherein I don’t know if my BABY will develop something that has DEATH as a potential outcome.
DEATH.
Now, let’s unpack this shall we. All out on the table.
You have NO IDEA what this “potential outcome” means. NO IDEA. I do. Unfortunately, I do.
You think you are protecting your children from thimerosal? You aren’t. It’s not in their vaccine.
You think you are protecting them from autism? You aren’t. There is no, none, nada, nothing in science that proves this. If you want to use google instead of science to “prove me wrong” then I am happy to call you an imbecile as well as misinformed.
You think you are protecting them through extracts and homeopathy and positive thoughts and Laws of Attraction and dancing by candlelight on a full moon? You aren’t. I PROTECT YOUR CHILD. We protect your child. By being concerned world citizens who care about ourselves, our fellow man, and our most vulnerable. So we vaccinate ourselves and our children.
You think you are protecting them by letting them eat their shovel full of dirt and reducing antibiotics and eating organic? You aren’t. As an unvaccinated person you are only protected by our good graces. WE LET YOU BE SO PRIVILEGED thanks to our willingness to vaccinate ourselves and our children.
You know what vaccines protect your children from? Pain. Suffering. Irreparable harm. Death.
And you would be the first to line up if you had an inkling of what the death of a child feels like. You would be crawling through the streets on your hands and knees, begging, BEGGING to get that vaccine into your precious babies because that is what I would have done, if I could, to save my daughter.
The fact is, there was no vaccine for her. Not for her illness. And she died. She died at age five and a half, and she is gone.
And I watch these arguments trotted out on Facebook and twitter citing false science and long discredited“studies” that just won’t stop and Jenny McCarthy quotes and “it’s MY choice” to not vaccinate...and I think...what would you have done if your child lay dying? Would you give them a scientifically proven, safe and effective vaccine and risk the minuscule likelihood of a side effect? Or would you let them go, knowing that at least they won’t develop autism (which they wouldn’t even develop anyway because SCIENCE)?
And don’t you DARE tell me that you wouldn’t vaccinate them then. Don’t you dare. You have no idea what it feels like to go through what we went through.
So, look at Griffin. Tell me why he gets to bear the brunt of your stupidity and reckless abuse of our protection? Tell me.
Seven more days until I know that my baby is safe. Seven more days.
How is your week going, anti-vaxxers?
Walking, stumbling on these shadowfeet
Part of the seduction of most religions is the idea that if you just say the right things and believe really hard, your salvation will be at hand.
With Jediism. No one is coming to save you. You have to get off your ass and do it yourself - Me
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