Jedi and Doctrine question

Trisskar wrote:

Codex wrote: You are temple member so you are Jedi?

Being apart of the Temple dosn't make you a Jedi

How can a Temple member be a Jedi who follows the Doctrine (that talks about oaths and commitment)? When there is no oath requirement for a Temple Member? As far as I know, a temple member is Jedi? Could it be that I am missing something? I know that the Doctrine are guidelines, but this it is just very confusing for me. :blush:

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A Temple Member is a legally recognised Jedi of Temple of the Jedi Order

• Acceptance of our teachings and Doctrine. These serve as spiritual guidance for Jedi. You may hold other spiritual convictions along with being a Jedi.

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Defense: To defend the way of Jediism.
A Jedi is sworn by oath to defend their faith and all it encompasses.

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How can a Temple member be a Jedi who follows the Doctrine (that talks about oaths and commitment)? When there is no oath requirement for a Temple Member? As far as I know, a temple member is Jedi? Could it be that I am missing something? I know that the Doctrine are guidelines, but this it is just very confusing for me. :blush:

The only commitment that matters is the commitment that you have to your Jedi path... what we tell you you are is completely irrelevant... if you follow the doctrine, you call yourself a Jedi, not nobody can tell you otherwise (And frankly... the doctrine bit is optional to being a Jedi )

Edan wrote:

How can a Temple member be a Jedi who follows the Doctrine (that talks about oaths and commitment)? When there is no oath requirement for a Temple Member? As far as I know, a temple member is Jedi? Could it be that I am missing something? I know that the Doctrine are guidelines, but this it is just very confusing for me. :blush:

The only commitment that matters is the commitment that you have to your Jedi path... what we tell you you are is completely irrelevant... if you follow the doctrine, you call yourself a Jedi, not nobody can tell you otherwise (And frankly... the doctrine bit is optional to being a Jedi )

I know and I have no problems with following the Doctrine, Edan! :laugh: It is just confusing me that it says something.. and another part of the temple says something that looks on first sight as 'opposite'. Just not sure how I should understand that opposite thingy. :blink:

As far as I see, most people here think that everything is optional for being a Jedi.

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Rather populistic paradigm which goes contrary to the only organized thing - Doctrine. Also, it's a paradigm well suited to people who don't feel like investing their time and effort into the path - it makes TOTJO ranks a sort of weekend warrior badge.

IMO, if we take Doctrine away from our understanding of the Jedi way, the whole TOTJO will become just a hangout and then it will seize to exist, because people can hangout anywhere.

IMO, Jedi way is well described in Doctrine and every Jedi path can only benefit from it. Of course, Doctrine is to be thoroughly checked via spirit of the way, but I don't feel like it changes all that often and also, it should be done by the council only.

I've always read it as a 'Temple Member' being a member of the TOTJO Church can define themselves as Jedi. How well they practice their path is a matter for the individual, and TOTJO provides some services to grow that application of effort like 'Statuses', 'Ranks', 'Offices' and 'Clerical Ranks' or just general community participation.

We only recently removed the requirement for a Simple Oath, due to member feedback, but its still optional. That wording might need an adjustment, thanks for pointing it out!!

There may be some confusion here between internet forum titles and spiritual/philosophical ones.

"Jedi" is a spiritual/philosophical title anybody can use if they walk the path. This title is notoriously vague, even within the "Jedi" community, and pretty much anybody is entitled to use it.

In the internet/forum world of TOTJO, we have "Guests", "Members", and then the various ranks. "Guests" don't have to accept our doctrine or make any sort of oath or commitment to participate. They don't have to be "Jedi". "Members" have filled out the application and are considered legal members of the Temple, but they may not have taken the Simple Oath yet, or may never decide to. Some wait until after they complete the IP to do so. This means they still may not have made a spiritual/philosophical commitment to the Path even though they are legally a member. They still may not consider themselves "Jedi", or they might.

As Vader says, "The Force is strong with you, young Skywalker, but you are not a Jedi yet."

A Jedi who has sworn an oath to TOTJO (not required) is generally expected to accept the Doctrine and defend the faith and all it encompasses (although the degree to which this is required is always up for debate). These would likely use the title "Jedi".

People join and become a Member for many reasons. Maybe they want to study Jediism or aspire to become a better person or a Jedi. Merely being a Member makes you a Jedi as much as sitting in a garage makes you a car.

Br. John wrote: People join and become a Member for many reasons. Maybe they want to study Jediism or aspire to become a better person or a Jedi. Merely being a Member makes you a Jedi as much as sitting in a garage makes you a car.

emphasis mine

That is one of my favorite sayings John. :laugh:

I was going to say that I would imagine that anyone who becomes a Member wishes to be a Jedi but you'll notice you can also be a Guest. I would say that Guests are people who want to be at the Temple but who don't really consider themselves Jedi. Like Khaos, for example. But I'm not going to tell them that they're not. That's up to them to decide.

den385 wrote: As far as I see, most people here think that everything is optional for being a Jedi.

As someone who does think that, might I address this...

Rather populistic paradigm which goes contrary to the only organized thing - Doctrine.

Everything is also optional for being a Shmabbadoobiguffle. Once we begin defining the word, instantly we start judging each other. You are a Jedi, but this other person isn't for they meet not criterion so-and-so. But then by their definition they are a Jedi but you don't meet criterion this-and-that so you aren't. Conversely, as long as we keep the word undefined, it remains without substance. Now you do refer to the doctrine, so please, do read on, since I will respond to that.

Also, it's a paradigm well suited to people who don't feel like investing their time and effort into the path - it makes TOTJO ranks a sort of weekend warrior badge.

There is no unit of effort. You have no means of expressing how much you invest into the path yourself, let alone anybody else. I recognize that you are only saying that a reductive view of Jediism would benefit those too lazy to put in any. I'm just cautioning against drawing any conclusions from that about anybody who does see it that way.

IMO, if we take Doctrine away from our understanding of the Jedi way, the whole TOTJO will become just a hangout and then it will seize to exist, because people can hangout anywhere.

It is admittedly hard to disagree with this one, especially seeing how I used to raise that concern myself all the time just a few years ago. Looking around now and observing what TOTJO is, it is at the same time hard to see how it is different from any other hangout place. Yes, our discussion topics tend to be more about philosophy than, say, sports, more about politics than about science, and somewhere in the background, unseen to the public, there is this apprenticeship thing going. It is by no means our users that set us apart from any other hangout though. What is wrong with that anyway?

IMO, Jedi way is well described in Doctrine and every Jedi path can only benefit from it.

People don't "convert to Jediism" after they come here. They come here because they think they are in agreement with enough doctrinal points (whether they read the doctrine or not) to believe that they'd fit in. Someone who believes in (some of) those principles can do so with and without being a TOTJO board user or member of the Temple. What benefits them is the community, not the doctrine. To me, for one, the doctrine is of detriment, because every contradiction I cannot reconcile and every singular point I cannot fully agree with makes me fail (at least) the second criterion for Temple membership. I am barred from responding, sometimes even viewing some of the most interesting and meaningful topics I was even asked through PM to contribute to because I cannot force myself to believe some things nor to lie about believing them.

Of course, Doctrine is to be thoroughly checked via spirit of the way, but I don't feel like it changes all that often and also, it should be done by the council only.

First of all, from how I know some of our council members, they have some of the weakest attachments to the doctrine. It is in general not a reflection of their opinion about things. And secondly, why should it be? What makes the council fundamentally more qualified to represent the TOTJO community to itself, let alone to visitors? We have elected none of them into their offices and we have no means of pulling any of them out either. Most of what is going on up there is completely opaque to us. Now I'm not saying we have great reasons to be grossly dissatisfied with our leadership - far from it. I just find it preposterous that given how little accountability we expect or demand from our administrative block we would freely bestow exclusive powers upon them.

@Gisteron - I appreciate your very rational approach!

I presume, the point in my previous post is wrong. I'd really want to see TOTJO more advanced, but, I guess, those I know among us want this too. And the trouble with it is altogether different then can be solved thru words or definitions.

My personal Jedi ism can not be told what to do. That's my choice. The longer I'm Jedi, the longer I realize I'm totally in charge of what I put in MY life, in my path, in my involvement. It's that easy. You have the ability to make what u want, to call yourself what u want to ACT like u want. My path has me asking millions of questions ALL The time. ALL THE TIME. Is that right for me is it not can I benefit from this...nope yups. Our doctrine can be used by any individual...any regardless if they call them selfs Jedi or not. With out the name our efforts conjoined are called the study of human potential. Aka, WHAT can u Do! Aqua...codex... you are on a road many of us have traveled. Keep on. Find you and make it yours. I'm so glad I am a small part of that path friend! Thanks for sharing it!

carlos.martinez3 wrote: Aqua...codex...

You may call me as you see fit, Carlos. No worries! I am thankful to be piece in your path too!! :blush:

carlos.martinez3 wrote: My personal Jedi ism can not be told what to do. That's my choice.

I would prefer to be told what to do if that could benefit the Order and it's purpose. If we could cooperate and take on some global volunteering mission. But now I see how limited our resources are and how fantastic this sounds.

For Scenario Purposes::

I could identify myself as a Sith. But as a Sith, I feel it is necessary that I A: Improve my greatest potential by learning about all available options and systems of belief (such as Jedi) and B: Must learn who it is I am opposite or unaligned with in beliefs.

Therefor I would I join

I would Sign up

I would take the IP

I might even submit to Apprenticeship and heck if I am ambitious enough.....reach Knighthood and take the Oath because here at the Temple taking Oaths is only as real as you make it (As sith i bend it to my own needs)

I could become well known here. Perhaps even liked.

NONE of that however will make me a Jedi. I will still be a Sith playing the Jedi games to benefit my own interests.

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Please Note: I used Sith in Extremes as an Example and is not the only scenario available
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Being a Jedi takes more than doing the actions at a Temple or Community Group. It takes a personal admittance, acceptance, and belief in yourself to be one. It takes You saying, with confidence, that You ARE a Jedi. (Edit:: And by my own personal standards being able to SHOW and Prove by action that you are what you say you are) The rest is just here or there.

IMO

Being apart of the Temple dosn't make you a Jedi

How can a Temple member be a Jedi who follows the Doctrine (that talks about oaths and commitment)? When there is no oath requirement for a Temple Member? As far as I know, a temple member is Jedi? Could it be that I am missing something? I know that the Doctrine are guidelines, but this it is just very confusing for me. :blush:

Jedi are all about accepting others and being open-minded, therefore you can call yourself whatever you like and they can't tell you you're not. Nobody here knows your starting point. You could have come directly from hell itself for all they know. They can't tell you whether or not you've "improved" upon your starting point, or even what "improvement" necessarily is for you (or even what a "Jedi" is, for that matter). The only person who knows what and where you are is you.

Make a decision to follow the doctrine or don't. No oath will hold you to anything if you choose otherwise. Namaste.

Snowy Aftermath wrote:

Being apart of the Temple dosn't make you a Jedi

How can a Temple member be a Jedi who follows the Doctrine (that talks about oaths and commitment)? When there is no oath requirement for a Temple Member? As far as I know, a temple member is Jedi? Could it be that I am missing something? I know that the Doctrine are guidelines, but this it is just very confusing for me. :blush:

Jedi are all about accepting others and being open-minded, therefore you can call yourself whatever you like and they can't tell you you're not. Nobody here knows your starting point. You could have come directly from hell itself for all they know. They can't tell you whether or not you've "improved" upon your starting point, or even what "improvement" necessarily is for you (or even what a "Jedi" is, for that matter). The only person who knows what and where you are is you.

Make a decision to follow the doctrine or don't. No oath will hold you to anything if you choose otherwise. Namaste.

Hello Snowy. This topic is not about me, I really would like to keep it that way, please. This topic is about the question how the Doctrine was written. Do understand please that I follow the doctrine as a code, and that I do not have any issue with me believing or following the doctrine. Sorry that I cannot make my intention in this topic more understandable to you. But this topic served its purpose already.

The Doctrine should be followed with as strict a precision as is possible. Not only is it the code we should live by, but the law we should abide by.

Silas Mercury wrote: The Doctrine should be followed with as strict a precision as is possible. Not only is it the code we should live by, but the law we should abide by.

There is nowhere on this website that says the doctrine is law (also, who'd enforce it!).

Sorry, I must edit that. I sounded quite like an arrogant twerp. That is my opinion, and what I strive to achieve.

Codex wrote: Hello Snowy. This topic is not about me, I really would like to keep it that way, please. This topic is about the question how the Doctrine was written. Do understand please that I follow the doctrine as a code, and that I do not have any issue with me believing or following the doctrine. Sorry that I cannot make my intention in this topic more understandable to you. But this topic served its purpose already.

I don't actually give a crap about you and your purpose, Aqua. I'm responding with an alternate point of view, which may actually be useful to people who like using their brains for thinking in the future. You are not the only character in this play.

Sorry that I cannot make my intention in this topic more understandable to you.