The Field, and Lynn McTaggert

Wescli Wardest wrote: What always amazes me is how so many people think that the IP is our doctrine and what we live by.

It is not.

I think many people have mentioned before that this is never, ever clearly stated, and is therefore exceedingly confusing. Perhaps you should clear that up in the next iteration of the IP.

The IP is pretty basic stuff, and at least for me, is all material I'm mostly familiar with. The only reason I haven't completed the entire kit and kaboodle already is because my internet is a pain, and downloads all the material at roughly a rate of one hour of video per day. That, and even though I've read ahead, so to speak, I still want to post everything in order.

When I complain about the IP, it isn't just to complain. It is because it doesn't do it's stated purpose, really. It does help as a tool for self reflection, but I wanted to take the IP to learn more about what Jedi believe, about the order- about what the Force might actually be in daily life, other than a metaphysical concept. About how Jedi actually function in society, and what they do to follow the doctrine.

It doesn't help you understand the doctrine well enough. It doesn't help you understand why the pursuit of knowledge is important, it doesn't help you understand why empathy is important, and it doesn't help you understand the harm unbridled emotions can do- at least not directly.
Can science do all that? No. But a few very basic videos on science, similar to what I linked before, certainly could help illustrate our place in the universe, and why the pursuit of knowledge is a beautiful thing.

My complaint isn't about the IP as a whole, though, because I'm fairly sure most of the things I wanted to learn from the IP come later down the line. So, my complaint is just about The Field. Always has been.
Just McTaggert. If the IP is such a highly personal thing, and should contain only things to help you discover what you think the force is, it should have more than just one book by one crazy lady. Keep her in, if you like- but point out that her science is crap, and stick something else in there too.

I just don't think lies, or the work of such a vile woman, have a place in the instructional manual of a religion built on knowledge, wisdom, and empathy.

Can things in the IP be changed? Sure. We talk about it more than people may realize.

Adding disclaimers and being more clear in purpose can be done, but things take time. We try to be very careful in how things are worded as well. We even go as far as to talk about the use of a single word in the language of a doc.

I doubt we will ever get things perfect the first go around and will usually have to amend things over and over as we go. That is part of being a living religion.

And the IP does cover the doctrine once the individual has gotten far enough along to reach that point. But I doubt the IP will ever be fully comprehensible for the individual trying to reach some greater understanding of how the doctrine is a part of daily life. That is why we have apprenticeships. And even that will probably not get everyone to the same point. Learning is a continual endeavor that lasts a lifetime. And our views, ideas and opinions will change throughout the course of our lives.

And no matter how many times someone is called crazy or vile, that will not discredit any one work. I only look at the work and for truth in that work.

I did not create the IP. I even expressed my own distastes for The Field when I went through the IP. That does not mean I found nothing of value in the work.

No one’s concerns fall on deaf ears. I want to assure everyone of that. But I also want people to realize that things do not happen quickly all the time. As long as I have been here the Council has taken time to consider and discuss everything before acting on it.

Some say that politics is the art of compromise. One of my favorite people said that politics is the art of principal, compromise invites corruption. I believe that to be true. But when we talk to each other and truly try to understand each other’s views and way of thinking, then an outcome which is beneficial to all can be reached. It just takes time.

Wescli Wardest wrote: And the IP does cover the doctrine once the individual has gotten far enough along to reach that point. But I doubt the IP will ever be fully comprehensible for the individual trying to reach some greater understanding of how the doctrine is a part of daily life.

Wescli Wardest wrote: That is why we have apprenticeships.

I'd like to make two points here, really quickly:

1. The fact that the IP covers the doctrine, barely and only at the end, seems about as backward a thing as you can make it. This makes zero sense to me for numerous reasons, not least of which the fact that the Doctrine seems to be a foundational part of TotJO that (in any other faith or religion) would come right at the front so you know what you're getting into. It also makes no sense to me because you don't teach the Doctrine in the IP, you just ask our interpretations of it. Which is fine, but that means that the Doctrine isn't really a doctrine, it's just a bunch of phrases we all know but don't agree on.
2. Everyone has this assumption that everyone at TotJO is here to be a Knight. I think we forget that the IP and training/ranking courses are entirely optional, and that some people might be here just for the congregational aspect. Those sorts of people (to draw an analogy, the kind of people that are in a church every sunday to learn, but not volunteer, lead, or rise through the ranks of the clergy) are Jedi, too. And if we relegate teaching to the IP and Apprenticeships, those people will never learn anything more about this organization than what they can find us arguing about on the forums, and that's not okay with me. While maybe they shouldn't be handed everything on a silver platter, "plain" Members are still members, and they should be treated like it, not relegated to being second-class citizens who are forgotten about because they may not have the drive, desire, or time for the IP while the rest of us are on the quest for a spiritual enlightenment or a fancy title.

steamboat28 wrote:

Wescli Wardest wrote: What always amazes me is how so many people think that the IP is our doctrine and what we live by.

It is not.

I think many people have mentioned before that this is never, ever clearly stated, and is therefore exceedingly confusing. Perhaps you should clear that up in the next iteration of the IP.

Well, the doctrine link is at the top of the site, and does not take you to.the studies...

And the studies link at the bottom of the site, does not tale you to the doctrine....

So, I would think that speaks loudly... lol...

Apparently not...

But, then too, people don't know how/when/where to do the oath...

How/why/when do I become an apprentice....

How/when/where do I become a member... and "do I HAVE to fill out an app?" No, no you do not... "but I want to join" well, then you might choose to fill one out, sure....

I'd say some people need to use their head for more than a hat rack, but hat racks may confound them...

I expect it of children, children don't read, they act... They don't think, they act...

But of adults who want to be Jedi?

To move with focus, purpose and determination?

lol, man my inbox for a while... lol...

We cant cover it all...

But, if its that difficult of a concept, maybe we do need a disclaimer....

(Will a council member please create a sticky in council for these things we need to discuss?)

Remember, the more you folks add, the longer things take....

Its not like we don't have other stuff "temple wise" to do as well...

I processed two/three apps yesterday, 5 more came in... I'm losing ground, lol...

I like that we do not “teach” the doctrine. This is not a re-education program after all.

I also think that it is good to have it nearer the end of the IP so that the individual has a chance to stop thinking the way they thought when they first come here and are open to the possibility of a different interpretation of the doctrine. The IP is a tool to help people explore themselves and consider other option than the standard line of social thought provides.

No matter what rank someone holds, wisdom can be found anywhere. One just has to be willing to see it for what it is.

steamboat28 wrote:

1. The fact that the IP covers the doctrine, barely and only at the end, seems about as backward a thing as you can make it. This makes zero sense to me for numerous reasons, not least of which the fact that the Doctrine seems to be a foundational part of TotJO that (in any other faith or religion) would come right at the front so you know what you're getting into. It also makes no sense to me because you don't teach the Doctrine in the IP, you just ask our interpretations of it. Which is fine, but that means that the Doctrine isn't really a doctrine, it's just a bunch of phrases we all know but don't agree on.

Do you feel that someone's interpretation of the doctrine would be no more informed, after they have learned the ideas discussed by Watts and Campbell?

And in any case, are we here to "teach" the doctrine? Who here is apt enough to properly teach something that represents one's own individually personal path?

I always figured that the one's learning are also the ones teaching the rest of us as they discover within and for themselves.

Edit: Wes totally ninja'd me!

No matter what rank someone holds, wisdom can be found anywhere. One just has to be willing to see it for what it is.

Yes, and you can replace wisdom with B.S, and it is still pertinent.

I cant see your logic about re-education. Most often I see phrases about un-learning, teaching perspective, acceptance, and a myriad of other things.

There is also the fact that people come here to become Jedi.

Not all, but many.

Now, if being a Jedi requires no education, much less re-education, then why the IP, apprenticeships, or anything of the like?

What then is it to be Jedi?

You see, you can say that you expect more from adults, as Jestor mentioned, and yet, you do have a tendency to send mixed signals.

Which is obviously the case, as its apparently happened more than once, so you could say its them, and yet...it could also be you...

Just sayin.

I completely agree about the BS!

Re-education Program is a term used to describe the political ideology used in Re-education camps.
Reeducation camp is the official title given to the prison camps operated by the government of Vietnam following the end of the Vietnam War.
The term 'reeducation camp' is also used to refer to prison camps operated by the People's Republic of China during the Cultural Revolution, or to the laogai and laojiao camps currently operated by the Chinese government. The theory underlying such camps is the Maoist theory of reforming counter-revolutionaries into socialist citizens by re-education through labor.


I agree that mixed signals happen quite often. Too often. And is probably the product of assumption making. IE, I assumed people would get the use of re-education and not teaching people they way we want them to think. :laugh:

You seemed to assume I was referring to teaching people period!?!? I guess.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0rSmxsVHPE

This video discusses using meditation to "tap into" the field of cosmic energy. It can not be measured scientifically as of yet, but it can be experienced. That doesn't make it pseudo science any more than Stephen Hawking, who can't even feed himself much less scientifically measure a black hole's dimensions with mechanical equipment, THEORIZING about the existence of event horizons.

Science and Spirituality BOTH use theoretical speculation to describe reality. SOME things in science can be measured mechanically, while other concepts can not. That makes them no less acceptable.

The Field discussed by McTaggert will one day be recognized as the same substance known to Einstein as the fabric of Space-Time, to proponents of String Theory as the quantum field, and to Jedi as The Force.

While the existent literature of Star Wars describes the Force as a scientifically provable substance, it also teaches that Jedi use their "feelings" to detect and utilize it. They do not take out Force Extractors and generate repulsion blasts from wristbands. They "Conduct" the Force through their bodies and "Channel" its power into devices like Lightsabers and Starships. Frankly, it surprises me to see such staunch defenders of science here at all, being that this is a temple built upon a faith inspired by a work of fiction about a group of psychic warriors who channel cosmic energy through their minds and bodies. :laugh:

http://www.nbcnews.com/science/stephen-hawking-shakes-theory-again-black-holes-are-actually-gray-2D12001605