Monthly Council Reports Transparency

Edan wrote: While it's nice to actually get something out of the Council, the reports don't tell you what is being discussed that hasn't been decided on. The Council could be discussing extending apprenticeships to a minimum of 2 years and we'd never know unless they told us or had already made the decision.

I know this won't satisfy everyone, but bear in mind that nowadays the vast majority (as far as I'm aware?) of conversations of this nature are put to the Knights for debate - the Knights now being quite a sizeable pool of members. It's quite some time since I've seen the Council implement something (beyond administrative matters) that the Knights weren't already aware of. So, whether or not we think that the Knights ought to be the sole beneficiaries of this privilege, it would not be true to say that no-one knows what the Council are discussing or that they are keeping secrets amongst themselves.

V-Tog wrote:

Edan wrote: While it's nice to actually get something out of the Council, the reports don't tell you what is being discussed that hasn't been decided on. The Council could be discussing extending apprenticeships to a minimum of 2 years and we'd never know unless they told us or had already made the decision.

I know this won't satisfy everyone, but bear in mind that nowadays the vast majority (as far as I'm aware?) of conversations of this nature are put to the Knights for debate - the Knights now being quite a sizeable pool of members. It's quite some time since I've seen the Council implement something (beyond administrative matters) that the Knights weren't already aware of. So, whether or not we think that the Knights ought to be the sole beneficiaries of this privilege, it would not be true to say that no-one knows what the Council are discussing or that they are keeping secrets amongst themselves.

Well the most campaigning I ever did for transparency was as a knight.. I didn't feel we knew enough then and I didn't step down that long ago. The council is one reason I did so.

So we are all bitching now , Snowy i do agree with your message more now ,esp after Edan explained where the ache might be, there is a need from some for more info , others just could not care less , they have different priorities than to ponder over the fact that the apprenticeships are being stretched to 2 years . I might imagine that those things are discussed in great length for a long periods... like a lot of things , my personal opinion is that i am content with the way it is now , no need to get my panties in a twist.

I could imagine that the council have discussions like this , i doubt however they would bitch about eachother leaving the Temple , they would try to come to a consensus.

Yeah, I think Snowy is getting a bit of a bum deal here. For the record, I'm one of those people that's not really bothered about what the council is up to in terms of discussions, but quite clearly there are a lot of members here who do care and are interested. There was a massive discussion that took place and it was decided that these monthly council reports would be posted, unfortunately they don't tell us a lot (if anything in some cases). So I think its fair that Snowy ask for a bit more info. Yes, she can PM about things but of the point of the these reports in the first place was so that she wouldn't have to.

Would it really be too much to have something like this:

Adder wrote: Monthly Council Report - July 2016
Discussions and votes completed during July 2016, showing thread title only. All names and dates are removed for privacy.

30 Council discussion topics in July, 20 still ongoing and 10 finalized;

[Council] Changing of the Guard (XXXX for mod)
XXXX - XXXX (4th apprentice) (I think thats probably the best you could do here)

[Council] Member XXXX - Was reported by Member XXXX for XXXX/Was promoted to Rank XXXX/Rasied query *instert query here*/Unable to provide comment on this discussion due to Member Privacy

[Council] XXXX for Knighthood - Was agreed XXXX was ready for Knighthood/Pending further discussion

[CouncilSec] Forum Question
Moderation Clarification Discussion (what was the outcome?)

[Council] - Report to Mod guidelines? (what was the outcome?)

[Council] Kenya Pastor
Second apprentice for XXXX (again probably best you could do here)
Name Switch

Plus 1 Oath of Office. Feel free to PM me if you want a brief overview about any particular topic.

I understand that Adder has a lot of other stuff to do too. Maybe if the people creating the threads put a bit more detail of the line of discussion in the titles? That way He could continue to copy and paste the titles so it wouldn't add to his work load?

Because right now Adder is kind of wasting his time as the current level of information is barely more than we had before. I'm not necessarily saying that my suggestion is the right the solution, but the current method isn't the right one either.

Perhaps instead of letting a thread descend into chaos with all parties having a go at each other and continually making personal attacks just because someone asked a legitimate question from a view point we don't all necessarily share, we should be a bit more accommodating and at least try to suggest some solutions to resolve the issue.

V-Tog wrote:

Edan wrote: While it's nice to actually get something out of the Council, the reports don't tell you what is being discussed that hasn't been decided on. The Council could be discussing extending apprenticeships to a minimum of 2 years and we'd never know unless they told us or had already made the decision.

I know this won't satisfy everyone, but bear in mind that nowadays the vast majority (as far as I'm aware?) of conversations of this nature are put to the Knights for debate - the Knights now being quite a sizeable pool of members. It's quite some time since I've seen the Council implement something (beyond administrative matters) that the Knights weren't already aware of. So, whether or not we think that the Knights ought to be the sole beneficiaries of this privilege, it would not be true to say that no-one knows what the Council are discussing or that they are keeping secrets amongst themselves.

That's not a solution, but it actually does help to know that there is a larger group participating. Thanks.

Ive started a reply a couple times, maybe I will hit 'submit' this time...

None of us are what you might call 'sheep', despite one in this thread using this term occasionally, as well as other terms of similar nature, lol...

We all have a mistrust of authority...

We all want to know what goes on here, we feel it is our 'home', and in our 'homes' we know pretty much everything that goes on, raising alarms with our s.o.'s or kids when things are askew...

But, this just isnt each of our homes, this is a community, a collective, as well as legally a corporation, and business needs to be run, without the, um, "more interested" individuals commenting on things they have no idea about... They have no idea, because just like any other organization, we talk to each other behind the forum to figure out what is meant by the others on certain topics...

COnversations about xyz does not show the phone call I had with Wescli about a piece of the topic, because it was two board members making sure they understood what the other was saying, and then we post our thoughts on the topic... If our conversations were more public, then the "more interested" parties want to know how we came up with "that" (insert any topic here), and we would spend more time defending our stances, instead of debating the topic...... Or the PMs on G+ we all have, or the Skype conversations others have... We get up in arms about 'secret meetings in Council too... Maybe Alex and Akkarin are conspiring to have clergy "take over" totjo, and there will be no room for secular people... Maybe Jestor and Wescli want to run it more like a 'police state'... Maybe, but, as we grow, and I learn more about each other, I doubt it, lol...

Im sure you all know (and I repeat for those who do not) that I am an elected official...

I help run a small government, and you know what? I do not know every thing that goes on in my village, there are many homes, 6 board members, a president, clerk/secretary, 3 public works guys, and 5-6 police officers....

And I trust them all to do their job... And they trust me...

If someone is slacking, then it makes itself known, no point in me getting my 'panties in a twist', lol...

I had a cop from my work, ask me if I knew about one of the squads in the area I represent getting in an accident, and I did not... I felt a bit foolish, and I got all worked up about communication, and letting me know "whats going on in this damn village I am representing? WHy am I hearing about this through other channels?"

Well, after I cooled off, and 'checked myself', I realized it was my ego getting in the way, feeling embarassed that I didnt know something, that someone else did,...

Did I really "need to know"? Check this lists out:

reasons I need to know:
1) because I am a board member
2) I feel I should
3)

reasons I didnt need to know:
1) I didnt wreck the car
2) I cant fix the car
3) I dont authorize repairs on the car
4) I am over Public Works, not the Police
5) Perhaps not enough time had passed for it to get to me and other channels got to me first...
6)

In the end, I got over it...

I dont know what my guys do at any given moment, they call me when they need/want to, I call them I when I need/want to...

If I cannot trust them to do their job, (and that means to deal with what comes) then I need to replace them...

Do you demand as much from your local governments? Do you go to board meetings, and make sure they are spending your tax money wisely? Passing 'just' laws?

And here sits a board of volunteers, that get scrutinized for not sharing enough, lol... You can leave and go find a place where they dont have these problems... Cant move your house so easy, yet you [strike]demand[/strike] request stuff here, for stuff that affects you mentally, and nothing from those who affect you physically? lol...

People come here because we are structured, because we do have direction...

We are not all loggin in, milling around having conversations like other sites.. nothing wrong with that, its just not what w do... We are also offering a direction for a person's path, and that requires structure... Is it the right path? for some, yes, for all, no...

Anyway...

Zenchi said it right here:

The council gives in, reveals a little more, and so the process continues, and will continue until these people know everything that's going on behind closed doors. To which most of is no relevance to your Interaction here, or is simply none of your business. It is my hope no one takes offense to this, but I won't hold my breath, lol...

And then, when everyone knows everything, we can just shut the doors here, because every topic will be discussed to its Nth degree, by every member/guest, until there is lack of movement.... And, lack of movement/lack of growth, will equal the death of totjo...

There has to be organization, there has to be.... Well, for growth, for direction...

The answer from me, in my official seat you are now receiving, is, "we will take a further look, but, I do not foresee changes to the degree that will make you happy", Snowy or Edan...

Maybe we (TOTJO) HAVE given you all we have to offer....

And maybe like Zenchi, you need to leave and figure yourself out a bit more, for all you have done here is find support for your individualism, yet then we shut you down and tell you to 'trust us' (although funnily enough, they are not really connected, lol).... Maybe your next lesson is one of humility or acceptance, and realizing that things are often times out of your control, and that as much as that can sting, and suck, "it is, what is" in many aspects of our lives... Not "Humility 101" maybe you are ready for a deeper lesson, one that requires real commitment... idk...

This 'acceptance' lesson is a hard one... We all have levels to learn... I took Edan stepping down kind rough... Did I fail her? (No answer please Edan) or is it where she needs to be on her path to learn? Whatever comes, it is what she decided, and I only have to 'accept', not understand...

but quite clearly there are a lot of members here who do care

'Some', I would say 'some'...

And, the ones who seem to be worried about what others are doing, and bit more than is healthy, but, that is just my personal opinion...

My point of view has been explained exhaustively: there's no point in posting anything if it isn't intelligible.

Unless a new, unique shoe that I haven't seen before gets tossed into the ring on this topic, I'm not picking anything else up.

MartaLina wrote: So we are all bitching now

Nobody is bitching.

Maybe Jestor and Wescli want to run it more like a 'police state'...

Just pointing out that there isn't actually any discussions I know of about setting a specific amount of time for apprenticeships, it was mentioned once but it was also pointed out that most apprenticeships already last a good amount of time, and every apprentice is different, some require less time than others, some require more time...

that was just used as an example....

and as has been pointed out, the Knights are much more involved in the process of making/deciding on policies than the council now...

Personally I don't fuss myself with what goes on in council because i've been here long enough to know they wouldn't act in a way not in the best interest of the order....