Monthly Council Reports Transparency

Wescli Wardest wrote:

That's part of what this temple was founded on, curiosity about each other, curiosity about the world around us, curiosity about how the universe works. I was taught in our own seminary to question my leaders, to question things around me, to ask when I didn't understand. Knowledge is one of the tenets.

And it was structured so that people would have a safe and relatively free place to be curious and explore. And that means some things do not need to be shared with all.

And if you have a question about a certain something I’m sure one of us would be more than happy to expound if it is proper to do so.

6 people that can't read what I said:

Does anyone seriously think I was ever asking for names and details?

I quit.

Snowy Aftermath wrote: 1.
2. I don't understand this hostility toward curiosity and I never will. That's part of what this temple was founded on, curiosity about each other, curiosity about the world around us, curiosity about how the universe works. I was taught in our own seminary to question my leaders, to question things around me, to ask when I didn't understand. Knowledge is one of the tenets. I will never understand people trying to shut me down like what happened in this thread and PM box because of this thread, especially when I was just curious about how the temple works and couldn't make sense of the posted text. Does anyone seriously think I was ever asking for names and details?

I'm tired of the smallest things turning into trainwrecks.
.

Stinks doesn't. Never give up, never surrender.

Snowy Aftermath wrote:
I quit.

Then quit. Leave the Temple, even. I'm sure it would make your life ever so much easier than having to deal with us ignorant ingrates day after day.

That was a bit much.

I can see what Snowy was getting at. Sorry you got so much push back.

The council report IS confusing, ok? It is. But it is better than what we had before.

Less confusing is easy, but less confusing and more informative is harder. We tried a few different formats in Council, including using explanatory sentences but it didn't really justify the effort required IMO. The things which could have explanations were few and far between, most usually self explanatory from the subjects anyway, or so minor they didn't bother mention (like a word changed on a page somewhere). So in a way, giving more information was making things more complex - just because of the privacy restrictions by virtue of it being Council. Which goes back to the original question, less confusing less info or more confusing more info? I can simplify it to numbers which will be clearer but less informative.

Sure the odd thing would be clearer with sentences, it is true, but given the extra time to write up explanations for administrative adjustments it came up short in practise when I tried it. Most everything would still be lacking detail. So I'd wonder what is so important about the going on's in Council to warrant such interest? If there was a good argument for 'why' then coincidentally it might be more practical to provide, but given TOTJO is about the path not the church, and that its not some managerial school teaching how to run a business, and that the Council only exists insofar as it is required to, and every Councillor IMO would rather spend their time on path rather then administrators, we are just trying to do the best we can. There is no harm in asking.

If your curious to any particular item then my PM box is open. But it's an active topic again in Council so maybe the format will change, or maybe not.

Snowy Aftermath wrote:

Wescli Wardest wrote:

That's part of what this temple was founded on, curiosity about each other, curiosity about the world around us, curiosity about how the universe works. I was taught in our own seminary to question my leaders, to question things around me, to ask when I didn't understand. Knowledge is one of the tenets.

And it was structured so that people would have a safe and relatively free place to be curious and explore. And that means some things do not need to be shared with all.

And if you have a question about a certain something I’m sure one of us would be more than happy to expound if it is proper to do so.

6 people that can't read what I said:

Does anyone seriously think I was ever asking for names and details?

I quit.

And you claim you don't feel entitled? What do you call it then may I ask when after so many said attempts you get angry and give up? Im not picking on you, the fact of the matter is you remind me of me, four years ago. I had the same mentality then, Council took down the Sith forums, and I walked giving em the finger...

Idk, many your just talking out the wazoo about just quitting the topic altogether, but then you return and start the process all over again, lol. People come here, haven't done the work and expect things to change if they complain enough, or have become knighted and all the sudden expect to have some sort of authority, and when it don't pan out, they get pissed and leave or step down...

The needs of the few do not outway the needs of the many, pure and simple. You want things to change, you want people to "listen" to you, give them a reason to do so, because all you are doing is turning them away. Try being a part of the group, and a little nicer. Show you wish to be a part of this, instead of making everything entirely about yourself. This is a Jedi temple after all...

Leah Starspectre wrote:

Snowy Aftermath wrote:
I quit.

Then quit. Leave the Temple, even. I'm sure it would make your life ever so much easier than having to deal with us ignorant ingrates day after day.

1. When I do leave, Miss Leah, it will not be at your suggestion. Also, I easily dislike you as much as you dislike me, yet I've never told you to leave, have I?

2. Rickie, our differences offsite do not compare to here. You need to *listen* if you want anyone there to take you seriously. Those folks have been mind-searingly kind.

3. Rosalyn I will respond to the PM in the morning, thank you.

4. Zenchi, I find you to be an intelligent person. You know as well as I do that it is never as easy as just walking away when you want to. There is always a loose end. If I get the impression that it's smarter to give up because nobody else even cares, as I got before my last comment, I'd rather leave people to their own devices. I don't call that entitlement. I can't think of a word for it, but I don't feel like entitlement is the right word. Maybe cutting my losses? But if sticking to this after declaring my intent to walk away only because I have people that recognize this as being something worth addressing doesn't prove that I know it isn't about me, I don't know what to say.

Completely off topic, but I wish I'd been able to see the Sith forums here. I'm sure that was interesting

I didn't really want to contribute to this any more than I have done because it makes me angry...
But, Snowy doesn't seem to have much support...

So here are my thoughts:

- While it's nice to actually get something out of the Council, the reports don't tell you what is being discussed that hasn't been decided on. The Council could be discussing extending apprenticeships to a minimum of 2 years and we'd never know unless they told us or had already made the decision.

- What is in the reports really doesn't tell you anything - you can ask, sure, but that seems to me to be an obvious indication that what is already produced isn't doing the job it was meant to do - i.e. inform.

- Opaqueness breeds mistrust. The Council serves the Temple, not the other way around, we should be able to know what they talk about. Before anyone compares the Temple to a country, and the Council to a government, we are not a country, and the Council isn't a government.

- I personally feel we should know who doesn't participate in Council, seeing as none of us had the choice as to who sits on it.

So I'd wonder what is so important about the going on's in Council to warrant such interest?

We don't know! That's the point...

Snowy Aftermath wrote:

Leah Starspectre wrote:

Snowy Aftermath wrote:
I quit.

Then quit. Leave the Temple, even. I'm sure it would make your life ever so much easier than having to deal with us ignorant ingrates day after day.

1. When I do leave, Miss Leah, it will not be at your suggestion. Also, I easily dislike you as much as you dislike me, yet I've never told you to leave, have I?

2. Rickie, our differences offsite do not compare to here. You need to *listen* if you want anyone there to take you seriously. Those folks have been mind-searingly kind.

3. Rosalyn I will respond to the PM in the morning, thank you.

4. Zenchi, I find you to be an intelligent person. You know as well as I do that it is never as easy as just walking away when you want to. There is always a loose end. If I get the impression that it's smarter to give up because nobody else even cares, as I got before my last comment, I'd rather leave people to their own devices. I don't call that entitlement. I can't think of a word for it, but I don't feel like entitlement is the right word. Maybe cutting my losses? But if sticking to this after declaring my intent to walk away only because I have people that recognize this as being something worth addressing doesn't prove that I know it isn't about me, I don't know what to say.

Completely off topic, but I wish I'd been able to see the Sith forums here. I'm sure that was interesting

These people you speak of, they bitter like yourself? You may deney it, but it comes through loudly in your posts. I dont want to derail, but I have a unique perspective on this and feel it needs to be said. Like stated earlier, the similarities in what i see in you now and where i was three to four years ago is so ironic it almost hurts. All I saw were things that needed to be improved upon, and nobody listened. Why should they have, I lacked a definite amount of tact and waged war with all the fluffy thinkers lol. All because I was emotionally attached a little too much.

These "people" that you speak of, I've a pretty good idea who they are, and they are bitter, and focus more more on the glass half empty rather than being a small part of something bigger and working to better themselves within it. Like ghosts refusing to "move on," their bitterness keeps them around. Been there, done that, and they can keep it all to themselves.

There's a reason I am still here Snowy, I've learned more about myself in the last four years I've been a member than the other 39 combined. Most of it was off site, reflecting on what I observe here in others. It can make one bitter if you're not well grounded. But these people in charge, they're just human beings, they make mistakes and are prone to the same monkey brained nonsense as the rest of us, however, this is not a democracy, no matter how bad people want it to be one.

Focus working on yourself, and tell the "ghosts" to move on already. I've derailed enough for the day, pm If you want to chew...

Edan wrote: I didn't really want to contribute to this any more than I have done because it makes me angry...
But, Snowy doesn't seem to have much support...

So here are my thoughts:

- While it's nice to actually get something out of the Council, the reports don't tell you what is being discussed that hasn't been decided on. The Council could be discussing extending apprenticeships to a minimum of 2 years and we'd never know unless they told us or had already made the decision.

- What is in the reports really doesn't tell you anything - you can ask, sure, but that seems to me to be an obvious indication that what is already produced isn't doing the job it was meant to do - i.e. inform.

- Opaqueness breeds mistrust. The Council serves the Temple, not the other way around, we should be able to know what they talk about. Before anyone compares the Temple to a country, and the Council to a government, we are not a country, and the Council isn't a government.

- I personally feel we should know who doesn't participate in Council, seeing as none of us had the choice as to who sits on it.

So I'd wonder what is so important about the going on's in Council to warrant such interest?

We don't know! That's the point...

The vast majority dont have much of a problem not knowing either I might add. Granted I dont always get along with the council, a few really get under my skin from time to time, but I have learned to place my emotional disgust at times from the fact that I dont see too many individuals here able to invest more time and do a better job.

This I feel isnt about transparency, as much as it is to do about Individual self serving curiosity. The few want transparency, because they feel it's warrented and they are deserving of it. The most I've noticed who harp over it, are a tad bitter.

The council gives in, reveals a little more, and so the process continues, and will continue until these people know everything that's going on behind closed doors. To which most of is no relevance to your Interaction here, or is simply none of your business. It is my hope no one takes offense to this, but I won't hold my breath, lol...