What would help the Temple Be A Better Place? Suggestions please...

Arisaig wrote: Because my statement that you had refereed to was a joke, but you made it seem as otherwise. I just wanted to clarify that it was a jest, in case it had been taken as a serious statement. I am, after all, allowed to make a joke from time to time.

I thought it was otherwise. The poster you replied to seems to take the fictional lore very seriously based on his comments. Then as a joke your reply was not designed to encourage or give constructive criticism but to belittle him. So if the lore is a valuable source of instruction why do you disparage it like that in this case by using it as a source of mockery? As a Jedi is this a trait you aspire to?

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: I thought it was otherwise. The poster you replied to seems to take the fictional lore very seriously based on his comments. Then as a joke your reply was not designed to encourage or give constructive criticism but to belittle him. So if the lore is a valuable source of instruction why do you disparage it like that in this case by using it as a source of mockery? As a Jedi is this a trait you aspire to?

I dunno, must have a different Star Wars wherever you are from here. I seem to remember some of my favourite quotes from the Jedi are... well... sassy.

Exhibit A


But still, seems like you're down for arguing for the sake of arguing today. Everyone here knows I don't belittle people. I may jab, but always in friendly jest. I'm not a malicious person, and thankfully I have that reputation. We don't climb a mountain by shoving people back down, especially if we're all attached to the same line (ie. The Force). And that was all my point was. A friendly jab. Hence, as previously mentioned, I denoted it as humour.

I don't pull too much from the fiction, but just like the bible and other books, there is wisdom to be taken from some of the quotes. Do, or Do Not, there is No Try. Be Mindful... In A Certain Point of View, there was a quote I loved that I will probably write down for funeral ceremonies if it's ever needed "Mourn them do not. Miss them do not. Rejoice for those who transform into the force." So I think there is good wisdom in almost anything from religious texts, to fiction, to lyrics from the Beatles.

Not universal wisdom though to be sure.

How can there be practice without the try? No one just decides expertise in a thing and then just becomes that.

To deny the morning of a loved one is to deny us one of the most basic emotional processes we can ever go through. Denial is not healthy. Celebrate them yes, but also morn them unashamedly. To do any less is to deny our humanity.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Not universal wisdom though to be sure.

Your opinion of course...

To deny the morning of a loved one is to deny us one of the most basic emotional processes we can ever go through.

I've always been more of an evening sort of guy myself... :laugh:

Zenchi wrote: Your opinion of course...

That's the point isn't it?

Quotes are words, fictional stories are made up, doesn't matter the source, what matters is the meaning they invoke.

Because wisdom is innate, we can all enlighten ourselves.
Huineng

All know the way, but few actually walk it.
Bodhidharma

Kyrin,

I agree with you on the mourning. But think there should be a short mourning period. I have a cousin. It's been about 8 years since her son died. It seems like every day FB is filled with messages to that dead son. I think when it becomes an attachment and you can't go on with your life that it becomes an issue. To me the quote is about not letting the mourning control you. Miss them, and go on. I still miss my parents, but I don't spend every hour of every day mourning them.

rrhodes67 wrote: Kyrin,

I agree with you on the mourning. But think there should be a short mourning period. I have a cousin. It's been about 8 years since her son died. It seems like every day FB is filled with messages to that dead son. I think when it becomes an attachment and you can't go on with your life that it becomes an issue. To me the quote is about not letting the mourning control you. Miss them, and go on. I still miss my parents, but I don't spend every hour of every day mourning them.

Actually the quote says, Mourn them do not, Miss them do not. To me that does not mean letting the mourning control you but to not even engage in the mourning at all. While I agree that we should not let it control our lives I also believe it is a process that is necessary to go through. I also do not believe anyone can put a set time frame for another to go through that process either. I cant say if 8 years is to long, however in that, there could be other circumstances as well. Depression is a major one. Its not something people just "get over" or "shake off". Sometimes a bit of help is needed.

Atticus wrote:
The fiction was designed in part to illustrate the spiritual questions posed by Campbell, Watts, at al; throwing it out and expecting everyone to relate to the source material without the intermediary metaphor is a waste of what could be valuable and relatable teaching tools.

I agree with Arisaig's point - without the fiction, it's just another NRM mish-mash trying to do what traditional religions aren't satisfactorily accomplishing. As long as it is using the name "Jedi", there is going to be a relationship to what that stands for in 99% of the world, which is the Star Wars franchise. I don't see a problem with that, because quite obviously (based on the number of people I've seen sincerely coming here for spiritual purposes in the past month), there's a lot of us who find something unique and meaningful in it. Separating it out from role-playing IS important, as there's also a good chunk who - despite the FAQ and the big statements in large bold type on the home page - want to play out characters from the fiction rather than doing the work.

To me, the only real difference in this and most of the esoteric-oriented orders out there (including those who've been around for centuries) is that we don't claim a historical base for our philosophy/spirituality, as do Rosicrucians, Neo-Templars, Gnostics, etc. All of them draw some sort of initial model from something they've found in the historical story (and that story itself becomes fictitious from age to age, depending on what is known of the history at the time), and then build their techniques and philosophies, their rule of life, from it. Even traditional religions with a historical founder work on shreds of lore/scriptures, the interpretation of it, and patch in cultural mores for the rest. So...some people are never going to understand that this is as legitimate as anything else, and that's to be expected. One can always just go be a scientist and explore life that way if one wants to strip all but the quantifiable from it.

As for the lightsabers and robes - well, most of the martial arts schools out there practice with weapons that would not be used in real-life scenarios and many of them wear "pajamas" (or more respectfully, uniforms which recall the cultural/historical setting in which their arts were born). As long as you know what you're getting from the training, I do see any reason not to have a little fun. Personally, I find the power that the myth has to inspire and delight - especially for the future generations - to be part of the appeal that keeps me intrigued.

To go back to topic - as to how to make these lines more clear, I think the blend of gentle redirects in the introductions and consistent enforcement of the username policy stated on the introductory page is a good method. Beyond that, people seem to sort out what they're interested in and which particular ratio of fiction inclusion works for them once they get involved.

Manami wrote: To go back to topic - as to how to make these lines more clear, I think the blend of gentle redirects...

Could you give an example of this in practise? A theoretical situation, just so we can better understand what you're proposing?

Manami wrote: ...and consistent enforcement of the username policy stated on the introductory page is a good method.

We do try to enforce it, but alas some slip through the cracks, usually enforced if an account comes back (eg. Darth Insertedgynamehere wont be changed to Insertedgyname here (removing the Darth) until after they come back, or when they apply for membership). Would be a nightmare trying to change them all if the account is never used again. ;P

I had brought up in a chat that perhaps there should be some sorta bot that screens for usernames that break codes while people are making accounts, marking them as invalid. Of course, that would just end up creating accounts with purposeful misspellings of names (Darf instead of Darth) or some headache if it blocks the word Master but someone wants the name MacMaster (a common last name in my neck of the woods). ;P Its a real Pandora's Box, imo.

Well, for instance (one observed) - when a new guest does an introduction based on a Star Wars persona, and those responding explain that this isn't a forum that does roleplaying, but they do it in such a way that makes it an invitation to get to know folks here better and participate in the real exploration, rather than a put down. It may not be what the person was looking for, but it gives them the chance to reconsider and join in. It has to be irritating from the mod end to get the same kind of thing over and over, but for the person who is joining, it's the first time they're hearing it, and it speaks well of the Temple when they're not made the brunt of that frustration. So, good job, TOTJO greeters!

I understand how problematic it could be - some kind of method to screen names for the major terms (titles and characters, anyway) when they are chosen would probably be the best way, so that they never make it in.

I think we need to stress that we don't have any answers, only a (fun)starting point for people to find the answers themselves.


Reading this thread has me leaning toward withdrawing, or at the least, remaining no more than a member.

Why is everyone so worried about telling everyone else that the path they walk as a Jedi is wrong? Too much focus on being right!

Right ,wrong ,or indifferent, be the Jedi you want to be, and let others do the same. All of this arguing has had me doubting my own beliefs and actions.......no more! I know who I am, and why I am that way. And more so, what I BELIEVE I need to do to better myself and positively affect the world around me.That's what's important!

Zero_storm wrote: Why is everyone so worried about telling everyone else that the path they walk as a Jedi is wrong? Too much focus on being right!

Right ,wrong ,or indifferent, be the Jedi you want to be, and let others do the same. All of this arguing has had me doubting my own beliefs and actions.......no more! I know who I am, and why I am that way. And more so, what I BELIEVE I need to do to better myself and positively affect the world around me.That's what's important!

QFT. There will always be people who criticize the way you walk your Path. Take what helps you; leave the rest.

Zero_storm wrote: Why is everyone so worried about telling everyone else that the path they walk as a Jedi is wrong? Too much focus on being right!

Right ,wrong ,or indifferent, be the Jedi you want to be, and let others do the same. All of this arguing has had me doubting my own beliefs and actions.......no more! I know who I am, and why I am that way. And more so, what I BELIEVE I need to do to better myself and positively affect the world around me.That's what's important!

Because many here cannot conceive of something such as being a Jedi as having true value unless it is an objective value (a standard) that applies to everyone. Some feel they need to have a standard to compare themselves and others to in order to give a value to where they are on their path. It is very difficult for them to think of this "playing field" any differently. To them, if this kind of system does not take place, than it must be a value-less definition-less free-for-all that might as well not exist.

There are some of us like myself who don't see the "playing field" in terms of a "moral model", but instead in more of an "existential model", since it is the existential level of things in which morals arise from in the first place, and is the one level that every human being is connected within. Outside of that level, things get split up, comparisons are made, and people begin picking "sides" as to what is "right" and "wrong", and trying to objectify things on this level.

Alas, it's not an easy notion (the existential model of the playing field) to get one's understanding into without spending a lot of time learning how to shed layers and layers of perceptual illusions from, and even after a life time, you never truly shed them, you just become free of slavery to it. For people who aren't "there" yet, any mention of this model is just a bunch of non-sense, and many of the obstacles to getting to that point can make one feel very discouraged that its even worth it.

So as a result, you have a temple with plenty of people who are operating their path on a quite conventional moral level, where they are right, others are wrong, there are Jedi and non-Jedi, and everything is just a familiar and typical as any other system of belief or philosophy.

Zero_storm wrote: ...no more! I know who I am, and why I am that way. And more so, what I BELIEVE I need to do to better myself and positively affect the world around me.That's what's important!

Yeah! Be the best, most genuine you you can be!