"Jedi Believe" was Tied....

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24 Mar 2020 21:46 #350653 by Alethea Thompson
If the people in this are not discussing these topics with a genuine spirit than they wouldn't be investing a discourse at all.

Alexandre, I love you, but please do not insult the people who have actually taken time to get involved with the discussion as though they aren't being genuine.
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24 Mar 2020 22:21 - 24 Mar 2020 22:27 #350655 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic "Jedi Believe" was Tied....
I for one do both, I feel and think at the same time, and they are connected. Indeed they seem to generate a 'Cartesian' 2 dimensionality lol, with my varying 'affect arousal' serving as the third dimensionality.... :silly: giving it 'body' :D

The trick I think is to generate a difference in the feeling and the affect arousal, as without distinction they just remain the same thing (and subsequently trap us to thought), and we remain two dimensional. To me that is what the Force is, and the Jedi make that distinction in their own experience.

PS I like Rex's suggestions.


Knight ~ introverted extropian, mechatronic neurothealogizing, technogaian buddhist. Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
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Last edit: 24 Mar 2020 22:27 by Adder.
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25 Mar 2020 04:17 #350657 by Rex
Replied by Rex on topic "Jedi Believe" was Tied....

Alethea Thompson wrote: If the people in this are not discussing these topics with a genuine spirit than they wouldn't be investing a discourse at all.

Alexandre, I love you, but please do not insult the people who have actually taken time to get involved with the discussion as though they aren't being genuine.

I don't feel insulted by Alexandre; however, it's way easier to critique something than to add to the discussion, so I'd encourage Alexandre to add something that's neither obscurantist nor fluffy. If anything, I think my idea of trying to narrow what we're actually saying in order to better include Jedi would align with what he said regarding believing in the force.
If something really doesn't have to do with the force, it's peripheral to the core belief in the force. At the same time, I think a lot of the more humanistic elements of the current (and proposed edited) doctrine really are drawn from the idea that the force makes us appreciate and want to cultivate human flourishing. A bare-bones doctrine would say "Jedi believe in the force" but that's annoyingly vague and empty; so adding on those basic inferences about how the force does and ought to impact us seems to me to be a sensible addition.
At the same time, I'm one person, so I don't want to steamroll other opinions. I'm not trying to "debate" anyone, but rather explain my responses since I didn't explain them at all in the survey, and Alethea asked for a bit more discussion. Alexandre, if you disagree with some of my assertions/explanations, please poke holes in them and offer your own counter-suggestion. We can't really go anywhere if all people do is say "I don't like X as it is" without offering an adequate substitute. I know that I'm definitely a lot more on the thinking side of the scale, so I can stand to talk about feeling more. However, telling me to do so without any sort of explanation beyond that is like telling me to perform an olympics level gymnastics routine, and then getting mad at me when I flop about wearing a leotard.
I look forward to explanations and thoughts from more people

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TM: Carlos Martinez
ὁ δὲ ἀμυχηδόν νεξέταστος βίος γίγνομαι βιωτὸς ἀνθρώπῳ
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25 Mar 2020 10:47 #350659 by Max-yol
Replied by Max-yol on topic "Jedi Believe" was Tied....
I'm relatively new here. I have submitted an application so at best I'm only an initiate. I don't know if I have the right to share in this debate with members that outrank me and have seniority. If it indeed isn't my place, I meant no disrespect and I apologize in advance. I just wanted to share my opinion.

I don't really agree with the idea of narrowing anything in order to better include jedi. I believe that even though terms like "Jedi believe in the force" can come off as annoyingly vague, it still leaves a chance to encompass a lot of people. We as people don't always see eye to eye and we have our own opinions, beliefs, and perspectives. So if we narrow down on what a jedi should believe by adding certain things, we're redefining what a jedi believes. Hence what was a broad term that could be interpreted differently by people to arrive at the same conclusion, ultimately believing in the force, isn't the case anymore.

The way things are currently stated is in my opinion the best way possible. It covers all the basics to being a jedi while at the same time gives space for personal growth, opinions and stances. Yes, certain things could be better, but there isn't a way to make it better for everyone. The death penalty for example, people are already split on that, some want to allow it and others don't. I think it means that as jedi we shouldn't opt for having someone killed. In war or other scenarios that's different. However in court, as jedi we value human life and do not agree with killing anyone especially when they could be imprisoned for life instead.

I also don't think adding on to the basis inferences on how the force ought to impact us is a good idea either. Again, no matter what we add, it'll be limiting and impinging for the way other people believed in the force. I mean no one fully understands how the force works and that's the beauty of it. It's open to interpretation in any way. There might be more to Rex's points that I didn't fully grasp. If that's the case I'd really like it if Rex or anyone else that believes in narrowing down and being specific about what a jedi believe in beyond the force could elaborate.
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25 Mar 2020 14:26 - 25 Mar 2020 15:59 #350661 by Alexandre Orion
Max-yol, you are very welcome to discuss, comment and participate in an open discussion. As it were, everyone ought to ponder these things. We're all new ; no one has it figured out and no one has conquered wisdom. Let's hope it stays like that.

Ally, I'm sorry to have come of as brash, and it certainly wasn't my intention to insult anyone. Rex, I don't know if you meant "criticise" by "critique" or not. I was not criticising, but was making a ponderous critique. And I shall indeed stand by it. I did try to offer the best suggestion that I have to make towards the end : Certainly, let's have very open dialogue about what we "believe," for that is how we can find out what a belief is and how it differs from an idea. Adder, I also have my cerebral side, that pesky Cartesian (sic - Réné Descartes wasn't as cerebral as we try to be) inclination to pass everything in review of what I "know." That's why the Cartesian element that most "Cartesians" ignore is that we really can't "know" very much. Methodical doubt is indispensible. Indeed, the meaning of the word - hence the notion it conveys - "Reason" has undergone a lot of connotative transformation over the years. We haven't necessarily caught up.

The point that I'm trying to make is that it seems we're trying to be very 'objective' which is a glaring category error in terms of "belief."

We've all been through the IP. It is made quite clear in Campbell and in Watts that by the time we get to putting unconscious states like belief into words, we can really only describe it from a current perspective rather than being able to define it once and for good. I feel that it is not merely a futile effort, but a possibly dangerous one.

In my last comment, "belief" and "faith" were quite tightly bound. Plato's theory of knowledge, holding that "to know" is having a "justified, true belief" has been awkward for 22 centuries because all of those terms are co-relative : it is damned near impossible to qualify any of the terms. Moreover, how often do we indeed believe something that we cannot "know" ? Probably more often than we're willing to admit. Indeed, we often cling to beliefs that we surely want to be true - likewise we reject that which we do not want to be true - but that has little bearing on the actual truth value.

So, I'll go back to my original suggestion : let's explore what we actually "believe." There's a reason why I ask you all to rise with this challenge - namely that it is hard. It takes a lot of intro-outro-intro-spection to separate our beliefs from our favourite personal narratives. We need "faith" (belief) just because we cannot "know." That is what I'm suggesting. Until this exploration is done, all the lexical precision in the universe will have the worth of a grocery list.

Here's a suggestion for how to proceed :

Go through each of the "beliefs" in the original or any subsequent list one by one. Let's say one topic of "belief" per month. Each person take the time to do some sincere, soul-searching contemplation on the matter. This is the importance of trying not to think about it too much (just enough, but not too much, as we can't "not" think - nor would I recommend that). But just sincere self-interrogation. Let's not be too afraid to notice where we are desperate, for that too is part of the human condition I talked about before.

After that, we just talk about what we've discovered about what we thought/think we believe. On a neurological level, belief is processed in an area of the brain that has no direct access to language -- that's why this is so difficult. What we're trying to describe has got to get across the corpus collosum and then bounce back several times before we can even begin to get an inkling of what we're trying to communicate. Thus, we certainly ought not tell anyone he or she is wrong about their belief. Absurdity is as inherent to "belief" as "belief" is to "faith."

Chaque homme a des devoirs envers l'homme en tant qu'homme.
~ Henri Bergson
Last edit: 25 Mar 2020 15:59 by Alexandre Orion.
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25 Mar 2020 15:58 - 25 Mar 2020 15:58 #350664 by OB1Shinobi
My opinion is that everything in the Doctrine should be put under review and most of it ought to be updated. Much of it is poorly worded and some of it is outright silly. The plagiarism of St Francis’s prayer, for instance. Its a beautiful prayer but seriously, cant we at least come up with something of our own? We are a different community today. A more mature and an intellectually more developed community. I think we should revise the Doctrine so as to reflect that.

My heroes had the heart to lose their lives out on a limb
And all I remember is thinking, I want to be like them
Last edit: 25 Mar 2020 15:58 by OB1Shinobi.
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25 Mar 2020 16:57 #350665 by Gothic.purple
I can partly agree with shinobi, the Code does much follow the prayer. and yet at the same time, the code was made to be around the prayer as something spoken softly between each member. Now I'm not saying that it indirectly follows the code of the code follows the prayer but its not "plagiarism" for the creed yet an adaptation of it, just like many people do now in days with a parody of songs and movies, just how many think harry potter is a spin-off of star wars (Same follows with Star trek but vice versa)

Jediism is way more connected to Hinduism and small chains of Christianity and Paganism, each their own path yet connect through one being and power, hence the Force. Jediism here is just bits of every religion dotted down to being harmony and force instead of Gods/Goddess's.

I say if we want to change then let's not force that change and let's start working together as if we are one instead of many different bits, yes we do need to change the Creed due to how it makes everyone feel as if it was "plagiarism" instead of an adaptation. Its all set to be something that can be spoken quickly to help spread hope and belief, they made it to where if a person feels lost they can recite it quickly and give themselves hope in the time of need. Something the Jedi were to do was spread hope and prosperity,

Purple Pearce
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25 Mar 2020 18:32 #350666 by Alethea Thompson
Just a random thought, but let's say we're able to get around to also updating the IP after we get the doctrine sorted:

Would a better place for the St. Francis inspired Prayer be to include it as an assignment as a meditation and remove it from the actual doctrine itself? A liturgical work need not be a doctrine alone, but also include inspired works and the inclusion of rituals. Perhaps the doctrine could be something shorter, but to ensure we don't lose the rest we can include it as material studied in addition to?
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26 Mar 2020 07:54 #350672 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic "Jedi Believe" was Tied....

Alexandre Orion wrote: Adder, I also have my cerebral side, that pesky Cartesian (sic - Réné Descartes wasn't as cerebral as we try to be) inclination to pass everything in review of what I "know." That's why the Cartesian element that most "Cartesians" ignore is that we really can't "know" very much. Methodical doubt is indispensible. Indeed, the meaning of the word - hence the notion it conveys - "Reason" has undergone a lot of connotative transformation over the years. We haven't necessarily caught up.

The point that I'm trying to make is that it seems we're trying to be very 'objective' which is a glaring category error in terms of "belief."


I'm not sure giving something meaning necessarily objectifies it, but do think it would enable the objectification of it.... and then so yes the more complex the meaning the more it's defined and potentially limited. But having an objective approach needn't disjoint its integral subjectivity I don't thieel :D

But that is just me coming from the Force being the integrated 'whole body in environment' state of 'being epistemological', rather then it having an epistemology. So from this point of view defining it is not defining it, but defining doing it, ie connecting, being in a sense we are already of it but this is obscured by layers of inefficient meanings which only serve to distance us from more useful meanings, what we often call truth (when it's convenient). But now I'm starting to sound like I've watched too much 'Lucy'.

Alexandre Orion wrote: We've all been through the IP. It is made quite clear in Campbell and in Watts that by the time we get to putting unconscious states like belief into words, we can really only describe it from a current perspective rather than being able to define it once and for good. I feel that it is not merely a futile effort, but a possibly dangerous one.

In my last comment, "belief" and "faith" were quite tightly bound. Plato's theory of knowledge, holding that "to know" is having a "justified, true belief" has been awkward for 22 centuries because all of those terms are co-relative : it is damned near impossible to qualify any of the terms. Moreover, how often do we indeed believe something that we cannot "know" ? Probably more often than we're willing to admit. Indeed, we often cling to beliefs that we surely want to be true - likewise we reject that which we do not want to be true - but that has little bearing on the actual truth value.

So, I'll go back to my original suggestion : let's explore what we actually "believe." There's a reason why I ask you all to rise with this challenge - namely that it is hard. It takes a lot of intro-outro-intro-spection to separate our beliefs from our favourite personal narratives. We need "faith" (belief) just because we cannot "know." That is what I'm suggesting. Until this exploration is done, all the lexical precision in the universe will have the worth of a grocery list.

Here's a suggestion for how to proceed :

Go through each of the "beliefs" in the original or any subsequent list one by one. Let's say one topic of "belief" per month. Each person take the time to do some sincere, soul-searching contemplation on the matter. This is the importance of trying not to think about it too much (just enough, but not too much, as we can't "not" think - nor would I recommend that). But just sincere self-interrogation. Let's not be too afraid to notice where we are desperate, for that too is part of the human condition I talked about before.

After that, we just talk about what we've discovered about what we thought/think we believe. On a neurological level, belief is processed in an area of the brain that has no direct access to language -- that's why this is so difficult. What we're trying to describe has got to get across the corpus collosum and then bounce back several times before we can even begin to get an inkling of what we're trying to communicate. Thus, we certainly ought not tell anyone he or she is wrong about their belief. Absurdity is as inherent to "belief" as "belief" is to "faith."


How do you like to define those concepts; belief, faith, truth?
To me truth represents what overt sceptics tend to define as belief, and belief to me is a functional version of what they call faith (not without reason, prone to being wrong but often right), with faith itself being the broad term representing the disconnect of proof to something action in its awareness/engagement. In this approach the difference between belief and truth is that evidence exists tangibly, but they are not absolute things but measures..... that said, its not something I think much on and I'm not trying to define it too specifically for its a functional faith to me :silly:

On the St Francis prayer, might be an avenue for structure to the doctrine, to better highlite the different nature of content. But I'm not sure how best to approach that idea myself. Relegating it to the IP seems a bit heavy but it depends on what the doctrine is trying to represent I guess.

Knight ~ introverted extropian, mechatronic neurothealogizing, technogaian buddhist. Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
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26 Mar 2020 10:18 - 26 Mar 2020 10:22 #350674 by Alexandre Orion
Good morning everyone,

Ally, you're right about the IP needing an overhaul. That has already been done and proposed to the Council. It is based on resources that I had to translate, so now it is in the phase of getting refined. It is aimed at encouraging the learner to come into intimacy with her- or himself, to examine one's perceptions, feelings and thoughts before one gets plunged into whatever the Force may be. Indeed, the term "the Force" never even appears in the newly proposed IP. That comes later.

The current IP (with different essay topics) should become the core lessons of the ADiv - apart from whatever lessons a mentor may give for an apprenticeship. There will also be core lessons for a BDiv, MDiv and DDiv that are quite apart from anything having much bearing on Apprenticeship. The separation between learning for a degree in Divinity and training to be a Knight is nearly complete. Those two aspects of the Temple's mission are quite distinct one from the other.

Adder, you bring up some good points to which I cannot have any very solidly "definite" (yet, they are reliable) responses. I would agree that what you've interpreted from "Lucy" is spot-on. If we could get away from trying to contextualise everything through multiple coatings of utilitarian 'meanings' (sic), then we may have more access to right hemisphere de-contextualised, broad-perspective sensitivity that would permit us to act on our faith with more fluidity.

Sincerely, I cannot define belief, faith nor truth. Belief, I feel, is when we have the feeling that something is true or just without actually drawing that feeling from evidence or other 'factual' information. We may be well abreast of many bits of information that some might be inclined to call 'facts', but it is our beliefs about those bits of information and how they present themselves in diverse situations that constitute an avenue for action (even if it is only epistemological 'action') which could be described as faith. Faith, to me, is something that one acts on, driven by the belief - the acceptance - that the information one has is just valid enough to take a discriminating or well-discerned choice.

Truth is something that we don't have much access to because it would take into account every event of the whole universe over all time. In philosophy, we distinguish between 'Truth' and 'truth'. We also talk about (epistemology) 'truth-values'. Truth, capital 'T', is as wih any other of the major concepts -- it will forever remain inconclusive, concluded only by us not being there to talk about it anymore. That which we feel to be true - truth, small 't' - are just mostly accurate assessments of the environment around us. It does not take into account things which (we think or ignore) bear little influence upon that to which we are directing our attention at the moment.

Please understand that I do not discourage discussion on things like belief, faith and truth. Indeed, quite the contrary, I would like to encourage much, much more dialogue about these things. They are the motive of all of our action, no matter how ordinary. They are the passages between the conscious and the sub- or super- conscious. These are what form us, inform us and deform us in our relationship to the Other, the not-I, and the aperture through which we attain Spirit, the "in-between," where our connexion to the Force is at its peak.

Chaque homme a des devoirs envers l'homme en tant qu'homme.
~ Henri Bergson
Last edit: 26 Mar 2020 10:22 by Alexandre Orion.
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