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"Jedi Believe" was Tied....

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11 Feb 2020 02:48 #349697 by Alethea Thompson
During the recent questionnaire, two positions were taken in equal parts. Nearly 40% of those that polled wanted to keep the Jedi Believe section as it is, and nearly another 40% stated they wanted to rewrite the Jedi Believe section.

It wasn't long that we actually saw a discussion about whether or not someone can be a Jedi of ToTJO if they didn't agree with something written into the "Jedi Believe" section. As a result the place it has in ToTJO has been fairly well established in the minds of participants. So let's open up the floor-

What do you think needs to be changed/added/reworded in this section of the Doctrine?

For simplicity's sake, I'll repost it below so we don't have to run back and forth between tabs :) (not intended to be spam ;) )

Doctrine wrote: In the Force, and in the inherent worth of all life within it.
In the sanctity of the human person. We oppose the use of torture and cruel or unusual punishment, including the death penalty.
In a society governed by laws grounded in reason and compassion, not in fear or prejudice.
In a society that does not discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation or circumstances of birth such as gender, ethnicity and national origin.
In the ethic of reciprocity, and how moral concepts are not absolute but vary by culture, religion and over time.
In the positive influence of spiritual growth and awareness on society.
In the importance of freedom of conscience and self-determination within religious, political and other structures.
In the separation of religion and government and the freedoms of speech, association and expression.

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11 Feb 2020 02:54 - 11 Feb 2020 02:56 #349698 by Alethea Thompson
I've looked this over, and personally I think it covers all the bases. Though, with the addition of specific political problems listed (death penalty) I've wondered if perhaps we should start taking more specific political stances. Though it might be covered completely if we took that out completely and changed the third point to:

"In a society governed by laws grounded in reason, compassion, and equality, not in fear or prejudice."

(in case anyone was wondering, I voted to leave this one as is :), this just has been a question I've had several times over the years ^^)
Last edit: 11 Feb 2020 02:56 by Alethea Thompson.
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11 Feb 2020 04:18 #349699 by Rex
Replied by Rex on topic "Jedi Believe" was Tied....
I'd almost think we need another survey for each item, because I doubt I could find anyone who disagrees with items 1, 2, 4, 7, 8, or 9 (in no way does that mean I'm against those items not listed)
Even between items 3, 5, and 6, I wouldn't be surprised if the temple was in favor of them as currently formulated (and definitely with a caveat)
I'm interested in hearing from people with stronger opinions

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TM: Carlos Martinez
ὁ δὲ ἀμυχηδόν νεξέταστος βίος γίγνομαι βιωτὸς ἀνθρώπῳ
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11 Feb 2020 06:42 - 11 Feb 2020 06:54 #349700 by TheDude
Replied by TheDude on topic "Jedi Believe" was Tied....
I agree with Rex. Another survey should be made for each item. A comments box for each item would be nice too, and would make organizing information a lot easier imo, if possible.

My concerns are mainly with items 2 and 5.

Item 2 identifies the death penalty as something Jedi are against. However, some do support the death penalty. While we should not look to the fiction for everything, it is noteworthy that the Jedi of the fiction were not above delivering the death penalty. Vader only stopped Windu in episode 3 because he was going to kill Palpatine without a fair trial, and because Palpatine was unarmed. When he kills Dooku, his only reason for it being against the "Jedi way" is because Dooku was unarmed.
Likewise, many Jedi are soldiers, veterans, or law enforcement. They may have unfortunately had to take a person's life at some point, either in self-defense or on orders they could not refuse, and that is ostensibly an application of a kind of death penalty. Does this item make these Jedi appear less legitimate as Jedi? If so, is that justified?
I am a pacifist, and I oppose the death penalty. But I would not say someone else is not a Jedi because they support the death penalty.

Item 5 implies moral relativism. But if moral relativism is accepted, how are we to take the value-statements in the other items? Words like "positive influence" in the item immediately following item 5, for example, is clearly a value-statement of something I would consider moral or ethical.
Last edit: 11 Feb 2020 06:54 by TheDude.
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11 Feb 2020 08:20 #349701 by Gisteron

Doctrine wrote: [Jedi believe] In the Force, ...

Well, I have seen plenty Jedi say that they believe in that, but what this "that" is appears to be rather inconsistent between them at best. What exactly is this "the Force", other than a vague label that can mean anything and therefore means nothing? What does it mean to say that Jedi, or even a noteworthy portion of them "believe in" it?


... and in the inherent worth of all life within it.

This also I don't understand. "Inherent worth" always sounds like a contradiction in terms to me. Again, I'll hear people pay lip service to believing in it, but I have yet to meet one who can, when pressed, coherently articulate what on earth they mean by it.

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11 Feb 2020 09:49 #349702 by Cheb
Replied by Cheb on topic "Jedi Believe" was Tied....
For me, no need to change this.

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11 Feb 2020 15:13 #349709 by forestjedi
For me a tie between "keep the same" and "change" is easy, as the inherent impact of the two are not the same. Changing risks alienating those already here, retaining doesn't, as it was like that when they signed up and it didn't stop them.

For me, on balance, those who are already a constituent of this place deserve priority in what it is defined as, vs trying to make it somehow more appealing or different to those who are not yet invested.

Given the drama inherent in any change to it, the split vote and the fact to be here you had to be OK enough with that section to not be put off joining... it seems logical and fairer to those who are already invested in this place to keep it as it is.
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11 Feb 2020 17:50 #349714 by Alethea Thompson
I can make a survey later today for this :)
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12 Feb 2020 00:16 #349726 by Alethea Thompson
Below is a form you can use.
forms.gle/tmdbR5nwNZhht2rg9

All of them have a place for a paragraph answer (I'm not sure what the character limit for that is, but it was the biggest box I could give you).

Please take the time to comment on each one. If you think something should be taken out completely write "Delete" if you believe something should remain unchanged write "Retain", and if you believe it can be reworded write "Reword". Please make sure these are at the beginning of any explanations you post. If you want something rewritten, we request a viable option be given in its place.
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12 Feb 2020 00:42 #349727 by Manu
Replied by Manu on topic "Jedi Believe" was Tied....
Thanks Ally, added my input.

The truth is something that burns. It burns off dead wood. And people don't like having the dead wood burnt off, often because they're 95 percent dead wood. - Jordan Peterson
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