How is rank about academics and not just a popularity contest?

Hi. I apologize upfront for posting in this thread without having read the 100 entries that were added since I last caught up with it two weeks ago on page 5. I am sure it would very likely be a massive waste of time and I have so little of it these days.

Just wanted to share with you that there is a place where there is Peace, Knowledge, Serenity, Harmony and the Force. This place is everywhere, outside of us, around us, and inside us. We can find and experience it in us. It is always there.

It might not look very popular, though, this place. For the simple reason that many can't see it. As they are busy proofing they are academic. Or popular. Or both. Or whatever.

Spotting or celebrating such a place might even be academic. but it doesn't have to be. At least not in the way how many academics might see it.

Sometimes it makes sense to break the cycle, and to acknowledge that the solution might not be directly related to the problem. If it does not work, do something different. If it works, don't fix it.

So if you feel that you can't find such a place in this discussion, try and go outside. Get some fresh air. And think about how you could live your life, or about the IP, the code and doctrine, whatever. Or if there are any substantial and wise thoughts you are having, you could also write them your journal.

In case some find this post weird, out of context, unrelated, or just provocative, I'm sorry. It's just that I am trying to study here about the Force and can't stand the noise. And that might, somehow, even be a bit academic.

By the way if one really wants to get all academic about rank, one could also decide to spend a few hours on getting lost in another kind of reasoning: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Rank.html

More of that stuff might even get you some popularity elsewhere as well. And there is a lifetime to spend on it, as one can see also: Bundle Rank, Graph Rank, Group Rank, Lie Algebra Rank, Matrix Rank, Ordinal Number, Quadratic Form Rank, Rank-Nullity Theorem, Rank Order Correlation Coefficient, Sequence Rank, Statistical Rank, Tensor Rank

But beware, it might be a trap. On the other hand, for some it might be a whole life. It will even give them some popularity in interested circles (here: of academic mathematicians). For others, it might well be a waste of time.

Excuse the poetry.

Ambert.
---
Currently travelling, meditating on the Creed. Might be back very soon.

Ambert The Traveller wrote: Hi. I apologize upfront for posting in this thread without having read the 100 entries that were added since I last caught up with it two weeks ago on page 5. I am sure it would very likely be a massive waste of time and I have so little of it these days.

Well by all means let me be the first to dis-invite you to post further in this thread that is such a waste of your precious and valuable time. I have no idea how you can give advice on a thread you have no time or inclination to even read so instead I suggest you travel to this place of infinite peace you speak of and let the rest of us have our conversations in as much peace.

Ambert The Traveller wrote: Hi. I apologize upfront for posting in this thread without having read the 100 entries that were added since I last caught up with it two weeks ago on page 5. I am sure it would very likely be a massive waste of time and I have so little of it these days.

What you probably meant: sorry if I missed something in this massive thread.
What it sounds like: I consider your arguments and opinions unimportant, so let me give MY advice.

Ambert The Traveller wrote: Just wanted to share with you that there is a place where there is Peace, Knowledge, Serenity, Harmony and the Force. This place is everywhere, outside of us, around us, and inside us. We can find and experience it in us. It is always there.

It might not look very popular, though, this place. For the simple reason that many can't see it. As they are busy proofing they are academic. Or popular. Or both. Or whatever.

Spotting or celebrating such a place might even be academic. but it doesn't have to be. At least not in the way how many academics might see it.

Sometimes it makes sense to break the cycle, and to acknowledge that the solution might not be directly related to the problem. If it does not work, do something different. If it works, don't fix it.

So if you feel that you can't find such a place in this discussion, try and go outside. Get some fresh air. And think about how you could live your life, or about the IP, the code and doctrine, whatever. Or if there are any substantial and wise thoughts you are having, you could also write them your journal.

In case some find this post weird, out of context, unrelated, or just provocative, I'm sorry. It's just that I am trying to study here about the Force and can't stand the noise. And that might, somehow, even be a bit academic.

By the way if one really wants to get all academic about rank, one could also decide to spend a few hours on getting lost in another kind of reasoning: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Rank.html

More of that stuff might even get you some popularity elsewhere as well. And there is a lifetime to spend on it, as one can see also: Bundle Rank, Graph Rank, Group Rank, Lie Algebra Rank, Matrix Rank, Ordinal Number, Quadratic Form Rank, Rank-Nullity Theorem, Rank Order Correlation Coefficient, Sequence Rank, Statistical Rank, Tensor Rank

But beware, it might be a trap. On the other hand, for some it might be a whole life. It will even give them some popularity in interested circles (here: of academic mathematicians). For others, it might well be a waste of time.

What you probably meant: life is so full of wonder, if you get lost in mindless details you might miss out on it.
What it sounds like: stop talking about this useless stuff and go do something important!

Ambert The Traveller wrote: Excuse the poetry.

What you probably meant: Just my two cents.
What it sounds like: There. I just solved your problems with my wisdom. Not the thread you are looking for, move along.

LMAO... enjoying that popcorn Manu?

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: LMAO... enjoying that popcorn Manu?

Always.

The main benefit of rank in a place with a system like this is to develop a platform for shaping shared growth rather then random shared interaction. Not to suggest one is better then then the other, but the former allows like minded folk to work some contextual depth rather then breadth.
Unfortunately like any attempts at building cooperative structures they are inherently vulnerable to abuse from both ends, being guru syndrome from above and trolling from below. Both are signs of self doubt IMO, because the former must pretend they are something they are not to have others counter their unwelcome truth (not being a guru) and the later feels out of the loop, dis-empowered and ignorant of things outside their control.
I think it's all just part of growing up ie learning to read the state of a process for what it is and not identifying oneself or others by participation in it. Anyway, that is why its about academics not not popularity... even though it can be seen like that for those in the later group, and in theory a platform for abuse from those in the former. So it's occurrence seems more about the individual doing it then the system that enables it IMO.

To take a step back here for a second (or one post at least) what this discussion seems to be about, at its core, is hierarchy.

Is hierarchy a good thing? On what metrics should people be moved, or move themselves, up (or down) the hierarchy?

To my mind, hierarchy is neither intrinsically good or bad. In our case it can be good if it allows those who dedicate time and study to develop competence in ‘living the doctrine’ to pass that on to others. That competence will take the form of some academic knowledge, some wisdom, but most of all - a demonstrated ability to live and embody the doctrine.

It’s just my hunch - but ‘popularity’ here - is closely correlated with an individual’s ability to embody the doctrine, and their dedication. This seems to apply irrespective of whether one’s rank is Guest or Grand Master.

Clearly hierarchy can be bad if it is based on anything other than competence with dedication. Time, effort alone, desire, power, nepotism, even just academics (the list is long) are poor metrics upon which to base a even a shallow hierarchy like the one we have here at TOTJO. They would ultimately lead to corruption.

All hierarchies are prone to corruption - and we, no doubt, have some here. There are different ways to address this. Through revolution, the hierarchy can be torn down from the ‘bottom’ up - but that almost never ends well. It often ends disastrously. Alternatively, competent, dedicated people can make their way up the hierarchy and collectively be the change they wish to see.

Another intractable issue is that even hierarchies that are beneficial for the collective are instrinsically unfair, on an individual basis. Competence and dedication are not equally distributed. Some will find it relatively easy to climb the hierarchy, others will find it nigh on impossible. There is no shying away from this.

One of the mercies of modern times is that there are a near infinite number of hierarchies available, appealing to the near infinite range of competencies that different individuals express.

We all have to ask ourselves:
why this hierarchy?
Are we suited to it?
Does that matter?
Can we change ourselves to match the competencies this hierarchy selects for?
Can we change the hierarchy, and the competencies it selects for?

The hierarchy will always be resistant to change - so, often, the question becomes - can we develop the competencies the hierarchy selects for? Do we want to?

Often people don’t want to change - so they go off and start their own groups with new hierarchies. Other, extremely competent people (as Kyrin pointed-out in the OP) don’t bother with the hierarchy at all.

The meltdowns, rage quitting, self-imposed demotions etc are the different ways that people remove themselves from the hierarchy - often when the hierarchy doesn’t match their expectations. Often, that happens because people are shocked by the flaws that all hierarchies suffer from.

The true Jedi here (whatever that means) are a diverse group spread across the hierarchy. Some content where they are, some moving in one direction or other, some removing themselves from it altogether.

It may be that in our hierarchy here - dedication to the Temple - counts for more than competence. That’s probably fairer than basing it on competence (I suspect we have more control over our dedication than our competence) but it will mean that competence is distributed across the ranks, and will be less likely to accumulate at the top. Whilst potentially fairer, it will make the top of the hierarchy susceptible, and potentially threatened by, competence residing lower down.

This strikes me as quite normal - and on my good days, nothing to get too upset about! One thing is for sure though - if one removes oneself from the hierarchy, one shouldn’t be surprised if the hierarchy stops listening!

Loudzoo wrote: I suspect we have more control over our dedication than our competence

Maybe it can be argued that one can somehow somewhat manipulate how dedicated one gets to feel towards something. I don't recall ever getting to control that nor hearing of anyone who can, but much to learn do I still have, certainly. On the other hand, competence is a matter of skill. It is something I'd think one can learn, hoan, and train. Now this is not to say that a place claiming to be one of learning and training would actually help anyone get more competent at anything, though there were days where I'd have been happy to think of it as doing so. I take it, then, you suspect it isn't?

if one removes oneself from the hierarchy, one shouldn’t be surprised if the hierarchy stops listening!

And those who do not vote shouldn't expect their sovereigns to respect their concerns either, one might think. Well, maybe. Some might find this tyrannical, I don't feel too strongly about it. Since it is not like "the hierarchy" really ever started listening to begin with, I couldn't help but be surprised if it stopped, no matter my involvement.

Adder wrote: . Anyway, that is why its about academics not not popularity...

Only those seen as worthy, regardless of academics, are chosen for Knight of the temple. But anyone can define their path as a Jedi and they can be a member of the temple though right? Wrong, There are Jedi here right now that are in good standing and yet being denied membership just because they are not well liked. Anytime personality and character are evaluated as a necessary component of inclusion that is a popularity contest that academics have nothing to do with.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Adder wrote: . Anyway, that is why its about academics not not popularity...

Only those seen as worthy, regardless of academics, are chosen for Knight of the temple. But anyone can define their path as a Jedi and they can be a member of the temple though right? Wrong, There are Jedi here right now that are in good standing and yet being denied membership just because they are not well liked. Anytime personality and character are evaluated as a necessary component of inclusion that is a popularity contest that academics have nothing to do with.

I understand were you're coming from and yet, if we're talking about leadership positions, then a person's character and likability are important (these things can be different from popularity though). Leaders represent the organization to the public. There are people on this site I would not feel comfortable with going on TV and saying they're Jedi Knights. It's just like how I wish society would screen people a little more before giving them badges and more so before making them police chiefs. And then there's always the chance that the wrong person gets into a position (if all positions are based on something they excel in) and brings in a bunch of their crony friends who may all excel in academics but are like mini Steve Bannons. A person can get in a position and divisive and brash and become a public relations nightmare.

It's one thing to know something. It's another thing to be that thing. Someone can know all there is to know about Jediism but does that automatically make them a Jedi? What if I study everything there is to know about Football. Does that qualify me to join the NFL? What if a person knows everything about singing and dancing. They've studied every move but have no rhythm. Are they qualified to be the next American Idol? What if there's a book work who has studied everything there is to know about every single religion but they have no experience actually dealing with people. Are they qualified to be a pastor? If a man has testicles does it qualify him to be a father or a husband? In virtually every sector it takes more than just having knowledge to lead. Every selection isn't going to be perfect and I'm sure part of any caution the council has learned to exercise is from choosing people who didn't fit and who may have misrepresented the substance and image of the organization. My point is that knowing a thing isn't the same as being the thing and even if the organization doesn't micro manage who can say "I'm a Jedi" they don't have to support each claim or give it a platform.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Adder wrote: . Anyway, that is why its about academics not not popularity...

Only those seen as worthy, regardless of academics, are chosen for Knight of the temple. But anyone can define their path as a Jedi and they can be a member of the temple though right? Wrong, There are Jedi here right now that are in good standing and yet being denied membership just because they are not well liked. Anytime personality and character are evaluated as a necessary component of inclusion that is a popularity contest that academics have nothing to do with.

Except that is not at all how it works, for Knight....... so Id urge you to cnsider how corelation does not equate causation. You then switch topic to membership but that is nt academics or popularity.

I apologize for jumping in on this late been off for a bit. So, admittedly I read a lot but skipped some middle pages but read a good amount to grasp at least the surface and basic nuances of this discussion, 142 responses is a lot to read in a day.

I think those of you who know me know I look at the spiritual side of this pretty importantly to my path, I also looked at being knightly as a set of behaviors fitting the idea of living the doctrine (service or capacity for). At this temple that seems to be the guiding law of Knighthood. That said it takes people to recognize a knighting, so it can be swayed/popularity or what not.

This said, I think I have said this on my personal opinion of rank before but it bears saying in this conversation I believe. Please just take it for what it is just my thoughts, submitted in humility but not necessarily humble.

Rank is literally what you make it, it means what it does to you.
It gives you expanded rights for sure, in any system of hierarchy and that can be the issue of disenfranchisement for all levels of it.

But, what it is, the exact meaning is all up to you. If you see power in it then that's what it is, if you see it as a guide stone in a path, that's what it is, if you see it as an end, that's what it is. Here at TOTJO there is a ton of materials to learn openly and freely, and though I have seen some rough collision with free expression of ideas before, in the end here is a place to discuss them. To me (I mean my personal idea of it) my position in the hierarchy is simply the amount of responsibility I will take upon and commit too in the temple. That could make me look a lot of different ways to a lot of different people. In the end though I suppose whatever the responsibility I take on the bar with the color really doesn't matter. In the end I keep coming back because here is all this knowledge and what I have found to be a decent set of people to discuss it with. Otherwise the way in which I interact with all of you sets others expectation of me, but in the end I'm still here to learn, talk or share for selfish ole' me.

Just my 2 cents
Much Love, Respect, and Peace,
Kobos

P.S. Manu can you please be a sports announcer or movie reviewer/riffer you would be soooooo good at it

ZealotX wrote: It's one thing to know something. It's another thing to be that thing. Someone can know all there is to know about Jediism but does that automatically make them a Jedi?

So what does make one a Jedi in your mind? I believe that according to the doctrine of this place anyone can be a Jedi simply by claiming they are one. In such a qualification its often stated the each individual path is the Jedis own and no other can say it is an invalid Jedi path. But if this is the case what is the difference between a Jedi and any other person on the face of the planet? It is really just the declaration of that name, Jedi? I have always failed to see the point of this and of course many discussions have been brought forth in trying to define a Jedi from a non-Jedi. Every time those discussions have failed to achieve their goal. Its because of these nebulous standards in definition and lack of training standardization that it becomes impossible to actually qualify anyone for a rank outside of sheer popularity. In this idea its pretty obvious that even the title of Member is simply a rank. Guests here are commonly referred to disparagingly and even the basic Jedi must meet popularity standards in order to be accepted as a member.

Makes me think of something that I've agreed was pretty true and relevant to one's attitude toward being a Jedi:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sJY7BTIuPY

With that said, the difference between a Jedi and non Jedi has two different answers depending on the context: Are we talking about site membership or the spirit of the human beyond the temple?

Outside the context of the temple, I interpret the idea of being a Jedi as simply a symbol representing all humans going through the journey of being human (the hero of surviving life with all the suffering it entails, and growing through that suffering). In this context there are no non-Jedi. In the context of the site, it is just a matter of being acknowledged for confirming any particular state of that growth as a human. Rank is just a confirmation of these phases as acknowledged by the temple and what has been both academically and behaviourally demonstrated to it, with the addition of being granted certain responsibilities in suit of it. The doctrine is a verbal, summarized description of what these phases of growth ideally results in.

I can see what you are saying Proteus and I can bet that many would disagree with your idea that all humans are Jedi in one capacity or another. I wonder if you find this definition you have put forth as restrictive here at the temple then? It seems to me that by your definition, "Jedi" out in the wild get to decide their own worthiness for rank while here at the temple that worthiness is decided by others, and even others that are not as close to the candidate as those deciding. Meaning a candidates own mentor can find their student worthy but then be overruled by those that have not walked the path with the student.

Well, there are no ranks out in the wild, there is only the natural acknowledgement and results of where the individual is at in their life. Once you insert them into an organization dedicated to fostering this kind of growth, ranks become a necessary means of measuring apparent growth. However, growth is not a static event. On specific levels, beneath an average, more stable base of transformation, it fluctuates and it wavers depending on the circumstances; people are going through emotionally/mentally gruesome tasks of reconsidering so many things brought on by past social conditioning during their time learning, that it can't all stick and some of it returns. The thing is, the state that the Jedi is in, is made up of more than just what the mentor sees in them, it is also determined by what effect they have toward other people, for instance, around the temple, and if that effect is in alignment with the vision of the temple (such as what the doctrine describes). If the mentor sees promising growth with the apprentice between them but when they go to interact with others around the temple, multiple people can't without drama ensuing, that apparently says something objectively about the student that they still have certain things to work on, if they ever want to actually get constructive results with their involvement toward other people.

Constructive results equates to "cooperative" or "agreeable" results actually. Not something I am convinced is the most effective method of evaluation. In addition, casual interactions are not enough to even begin to evaluate such a thing. It takes a much deeper understanding of the individual that a mentor would be more likely to possess. Consider that contrary person at your work. To you that person is moody or disagreeable or hard to get along with. That is your perception of them because of the limited environment. But your limited and casual perception is not the reality of the situation when it comes to the true personality of the individual. It takes something greater to actually make an accurate accounting.

Should rank be about academics? Does rank even matter? In my view, the lessons in the IP, AIP, apprenticeships, the seminary, and the DQS are all just preparatory work aimed at solidifying the principles of Jediism in a person. The academics are a means to an end. If a person lives a good life, is of service to others, is at peace, and understands/follows the Will of the Force, they will have done a better job at being a Jedi than someone who simply does the lessons and collects titles. Just as a Catholic priest doesn't necessarily represent the principles of Catholicism as well as a recent convert, a Jedi Knight doesn't necessarily represent the values of Jediism as well as a "guest" or "initiate" or what-have-you in TOTJO. Without being defamatory to any individual, I'm sure you have met a Jedi Knight or two who didn't seem to embody the tenets of Jediism -- whether from TOTJO or another group.

If the rank is had without its essence, nothing has been gained other than brownie points in an online forum. If the essence of what is represented by rank is had without the rank itself, everything has been gained other than brownie points in an online forum. I am a Senior Knight. What does that do for me? It adds a little icon under my avatar, and that seems to be about it. Remember the 4th of the 16 teachings: "Jedi are wary of attachments, both material and personal. The obsession over possessions and people creates the fear of losing those possessions and relationships which can cause ourselves to be trapped in a state of depression and loss."

Constructive results equates to "cooperative" or "agreeable" results actually.

No, not necessarily. That is a simplification of something more complex than it seems. It INCLUDES cooperation and at some point, some kind of agreement (read as acceptance in this case, and not even necessarily on the outside, but on the inside), but there is much more to it than that. There are so many other things going on during a single interaction between two people, even online. It isn't about just being agreeable, it is about clearly communicating what you mean so that the other person understands you and can see where you're coming from. At that point it is about WHAT in a point being made can be agreed with and what cannot.

In any case, what makes up the truth about a person is indeed reflected on multiple levels: 1. what is going on within them, 2. in those who know them deeply and 3. those who only know them by their casual impressions and everything between the three. For example: There are things others here at the temple can see about me through more simple interactions that people in my own family do not. So all of these layers must be considered. Again, this isn't a simple cut and dry state of affairs when it comes to this kind of personal development, so we can't simplify things down the way I see you often do.

Proteus wrote: so we can't simplify things down the way I see you often do.

And this makes me unworthy to be a Knight in your eyes right? You simply could not say "we cant simplify things down that way", you had to make it a personal slight towards me. I find this an interesting pattern and its what I speak about here. You are a Knight here at this temple, but do you think you would be a Knight, given the same training, at my temple? There are those here I would grant Knighthood to, but I'm curious where you think you would fall on that scale.