How is rank about academics and not just a popularity contest?

Manu has the right of it. Knights bear TOTJO's banner - and represent this Order in word and deed. Not democratic representation, but representation in the sense that Knights are, or should be, the exemplars of their order, and the basis on which one could gauge its value. For an order to grant someone knighthood is for the order to give them their seal of approval.

Williamkaede wrote: Manu has the right of it. Knights bear TOTJO's banner - and represent this Order in word and deed. Not democratic representation, but representation in the sense that Knights are, or should be, the exemplars of their order, and the basis on which one could gauge its value. For an order to grant someone knighthood is for the order to give them their seal of approval.

That makes for a very poor showing at this temple in the face of the goings on here concerning the Knights corps. Excommunications that get secretly overturned, outright banning of Knights over their malicious attacks, secret conspiracies designed to segregate the membership, misuse of the admin panels in Knights having multiple troll handles, Rage quitting and resultant virtual warfare between knights, elitist practices where members of the Knights and Clergy consider themselves a gateway to The Force that others of "lesser statute" must come through, but only at their behest or appointment. These are not things I have invented, they are real events that happen here regularly. Something seems rotten at the core of this process to Knight an individual if this is more often the result than not.

Yep. That is a truly worrisome state of affairs indeed.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: That makes for a very poor showing at this temple in the face of the goings on here concerning the Knights corps. Excommunications that get secretly overturned, outright banning of Knights over their malicious attacks, secret conspiracies designed to segregate the membership, misuse of the admin panels in Knights having multiple troll handles, Rage quitting and resultant virtual warfare between knights, elitist practices where members of the Knights and Clergy consider themselves a gateway to The Force that others of "lesser statute" must come through, but only at their behest or appointment. These are not things I have invented, they are real events that happen here regularly. Something seems rotten at the core of this process to Knight an individual if this is more often the result than not.

No disagreements there.

Are you just coming to this realization now? Or are you trying to make some sort of point? And if so, what is your point?

Manu wrote:
No disagreements there.

Are you just coming to this realization now? Or are you trying to make some sort of point? And if so, what is your point?

Well I think the point is clear, Rank is meaningless. It is a horrible way to judge the character of another and really has evolved only into a means to serve the ego through hero worship. I want to empower people to look past these false flags and see the truth. That the work is what matters, not the badge and we are all just as capable as the next. No need to look to false saviors for wisdom, we all carry it within. Look there and not to others, except as equal brothers and sisters in arms. See the individual, dont be blinded by the shiny.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Well I think the point is clear, Rank is meaningless.

Well, no. Rank still carries meaning, just maybe not the meaning you or I would like it to. It is still useful in pointing out members who are committed and have earned the trust of the people in charge.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: It is a horrible way to judge the character of another and really has evolved only into a means to serve the ego through hero worship.

Care to expand. I do not follow your argument.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: I want to empower people to look past these false flags and see the truth. That the work is what matters, not the badge and we are all just as capable as the next. No need to look to false saviors for wisdom, we all carry it within. Look there and not to others, except as equal brothers and sisters in arms. See the individual, dont be blinded by the shiny.

Well, I have not stumbled into many high ranking members that actually propose they are "higher" than anyone else, so if your mission is to show we are all equal, rock on, but there ain't much of a fight there, people are humble enough to admit their rank gives them no special insight.

Manu wrote: Well, no. Rank still carries meaning, just maybe not the meaning you or I would like it to. It is still useful in pointing out members who are committed and have earned the trust of the people in charge.

But what meaning does that actually provide? Are you or I not committed to our own causes of betterment? Many here have earned the A-Div, same as any Knight. But does not earning the trust of a self appointed clique mean those individuals are less than trustworthy? I don't see where the rank provides any meaning whatsoever.

Manu wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: It is a horrible way to judge the character of another and really has evolved only into a means to serve the ego through hero worship.

Care to expand. I do not follow your argument.

I just mean that those with rank commonly get this idea that they have achieved some station above others and thus it is an inflation of ego that leads them to actions unbecoming of an actual Knight.

Manu wrote: Well, I have not stumbled into many high ranking members that actually propose they are "higher" than anyone else, so if your mission is to show we are all equal, rock on, but there ain't much of a fight there, people are humble enough to admit their rank gives them no special insight.

Maybe so and maybe not. But still people will naturally gravitate toward one with rank as implied authority and higher wisdom. Its natural to look to a leader instead of taking the mantle of leadership yourself. People are scared to walk into the darkness and take responsibility for their own journey. Its a thing I think there should be more emphasis on overcoming. The Christian churches are rife with this sort of abuse and it has caused incredible corruption, the very likes of which we commonly see here now. I believe that Jediism should never take this path as a religion where information is withheld and used for power, and it is taught that the only path to enlightenment is through a Knight or path to redemption is through clergy. Of course these are my own thoughts. It may very well be the mission of this place to turn Knights into Priests. I am just cautioning against such things.

and it is taught that the only path to enlightenment is through a Knight or path to redemption is through clergy. Of course these are my own thoughts.

Yes, they are. Enlightenment not only is a very loaded, overused, abused and misunderstood term, that I feel here is simply thrown into your response as a tool for an exaggerated and over-simplified idea, but everything we share here in not only discussions but in sermons, the IP, and apprentice lessons are is that any such thing is gained only through the self and the experience of the self. TM's, or Clergy people, whether a knight or not do not claim to be the gatekeepers of any of this knowledge. They are those who expose others to what knowledge and wisdom there already is, but through a system of guidance of helping others digest it, because this kind of knowledge and wisdom is usually not a simple cut-and-dry kind of thing to integrate on one's own. This is why the "mentor" role in mythology exists in human psychology in the first place. The structure of learning here means to follow that reality.

In any case, the mission of knighthood is to teach exactly what you are on about here, that someone must learn to be their own person and take their own lead. It is most naturally people who are leaders of and/or in their own lives who are best able to help others understand what that means.

You cautioning is definitely useful. But it is not something that only you have done here. It is frequently discussed in many forms with those who go through the ranks, which is why most knights agree to approach their path with humility, in light of that very caution.

The Fox & the Grapes ~ Aesop

A Fox one day spied a beautiful bunch of ripe grapes hanging from a vine trained along the branches of a tree. The grapes seemed ready to burst with juice, and the Fox's mouth watered as he gazed longingly at them.

The bunch hung from a high branch, and the Fox had to jump for it. The first time he jumped he missed it by a long way. So he walked off a short distance and took a running leap at it, only to fall short once more. Again and again he tried, but in vain.

Now he sat down and looked at the grapes in disgust.

"What a fool I am," he said. "Here I am wearing myself out to get a bunch of sour grapes that are not worth gaping for."

And off he walked very, very scornfully.

There are many who pretend to despise and belittle that which is beyond their reach.

Dayuuuuummm. Time to get meself some popcorn