How is rank about academics and not just a popularity contest?

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08 May 2019 14:30 #338210 by Williamkaede
I can't speak for TOTJO but in other Orders, Knights are expected to be able to continue and escalate their training independently, as well as impart their own training onto prospective students. There's also expectations of a certain standard of behaviour and learning, and adherence to Jedi values.

Passion, authenticity, power, victory.
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09 May 2019 20:48 - 09 May 2019 20:58 #338286 by Paralel
Forgive me, I am new here, but under the Training & Ranking section of the FAQ here it explicitly states:

"A Rank is related to the amount of study that has been accomplished at the Temple."

So, that means that "Rank" should be related to the amount of study one has done, and has nothing to do with popularity at all, no?
Last edit: 09 May 2019 20:58 by Paralel.
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09 May 2019 21:34 - 09 May 2019 21:34 #338291 by Axid
@Paralel

Certain ranks, for sure. For example, Member to Novice. Maybe even Novice to Initiate, but the ranks of Apprenticeship, Knight, Master, etc., are all based on the judgement of another member or several members in one way or another. At that point it effectively becomes a mixture of promotion by accomplishment and community intervention.

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Last edit: 09 May 2019 21:34 by Axid.
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09 May 2019 22:22 #338293 by Gisteron
And even then that description is technically out of date. By the definitions, Apprentice should be a Status rather than a Rank, since in terms of studies completed there is no difference between an Initiate and an Initiate who agreed with a Training Master to begin an apprenticeship, at least not until the first lesson has begun or concluded.

Though this discussion is more about whether the system works as described, as intended, as both, or as neither. For better or for worse, sometimes the real situation does not quite match the idealized description or prescription to the letter...

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10 May 2019 03:16 #338300 by LTK
I joined in 2011 and there were questions about rank. I remember seeing threads older than that questioning rank. When I was mostly an observer and lurker here post 2013 there were questions of rank. And when I logged back in from another year hiatus a few days ago what did I see? Another thread about rank, lol.

Good to see some things haven't changed; it was almost like a welcome mat at the front door ushering me back into familiar halls. :)

But, since it's a legit question, I'll throw my opinion in (and really just point you to what a few others have said that seems to make the most sense to me right now):

Ryu on page 8 and what ZealotX said about the difference between orders and schools.

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10 May 2019 06:20 #338301 by Adder
I'm not sure rank here has ever been associated to any type of command structure, though I can see how it might be easily misinterpreted as such. Therefore it alone is not really a vehicle for abuse beyond individual grandstanding about it. And hierarchical structures don't necessarily act as command structures anyway, so on paper its not a problem AFAIK. But how people act within them could always be.... so, correlation does not equate causation, any problem might be for other reasons, if its an actual problem at all.

But clearly there are 'powers' in various official roles. In my experience here its the 'offices' with officers that exert different natures of official duties... being functional responsibilities to Temple operations. But these are not always aligned with rank, nor does the office hierarchy afford control over subordinate officers IMO. The hierarchies there seem to be more about incremental increases in responsibility per level or different duties with shared reporting points.

The only association between rank and authority seems to be when its used a part of prerequisites for an official duty - but not all officer roles have them, and so they are not mirrored hierarchies AFAIK.

It might be a reason why the 'Master' rank is not used for teaching masters/teaching mentors. The functional role requires various things, and turned out to be set at a particular rank for other reasons (availability of persons at level to meet demand).

Therefore rank has no ground for abuse of power unless power is given to ranks through things like votes for making decisions etc. Power though is different from abuse of power, so there is more to the discussion in that regard.

So I think power structures are based on other things, and enabled by the powers afforded by virtue of office rather then rank under normal circumstances.... in regards to here. Popularity probably is another one, but not limited to this place.

The wider Jedi stereotype, which impacts all of us in various ways directly or indirectly does tend to associate rank with increased knowledge and skill - as training is the only way to achieve that knowledge and skill and the rank in the fiction represents that obviously... but that is not relevant in real life. At least not relevant beyond an individual having knowledge and skill about themselves, their bias, their beliefs and their own experiences etc. It's useful then IMO to consider expertise being in ones particular way along a path rather then the wider path or even another person path. And I think that is the point of the Apprenticeship, to enable a closer understanding between the two parties such that both can benefit through sharing at a deeper level then can be afforded by normal means. A result of that naturally will be a bond, which can appear as popularity.

Another means to be popular is to have something others covert or admire I suppose. But I don't think being popular or coveted or admired (or not) is necessarily related to abuse of power, but rather just another means which can be abused. So like 'following the money' its good to canvas likely abuse with who has the most power, and then who is the most popular, before asserting it as institutional. Structures inherently cast shadows, and the truth is in the details which are often the hiding in the shadows of structures. So much like with anti-discrimination, it works better when people view rights as being equal access rather then equal participation, and let participation be judged on its merits in ways which can be assessed in relevant terms to the structure, else change the structure or build a different one. In that way if participation is the measure of access, then all that needs to happen is the assessment is equally applied. But things are never that easy, and its not a dogma here so the assessed is not uniform enough to be assessed equally but rather that assessment is equally applied. So rules are made to guide the process as much as possible, most of note to this is the Apprenticeship.

How people relate to being within a hierarchy is a different topic I guess, as the experience can be one of being subordinate to power structures even if the hierarchy does not contain one... for if one is attached to the idea of it having something of value then the structures becomes seen in a light which is all about the result for self - it becomes imbued with a mix of supports and obstacles which can lead a person to assert an identity politics over people which distorts their perceptions and builds high barriers of bias and self fulfilling interactions. But I'm sure there are better ways of doing it, people have been talking about it for years and many people including myself have come up with lots of different ideas on a better working system. It should probably be an ongoing process, but it hasn't changed in any appreciable way in a very long time AFAIK, so its probably due!!

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10 May 2019 17:20 #338316 by Kyrin Wyldstar

Adder wrote:
The wider Jedi stereotype, which impacts all of us in various ways directly or indirectly does tend to associate rank with increased knowledge and skill -



And yet this continues to be one of the most common assertions in this temple by those possessing such ranks. The most recent example of this is a call for "lay sermons" from outside the clergy ranks. "Lay" implying novice or inexperienced vs the "increased knowledge and expertise" of the clergy rank...

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10 May 2019 18:14 #338318 by Carlos.Martinez3

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Adder wrote:
The wider Jedi stereotype, which impacts all of us in various ways directly or indirectly does tend to associate rank with increased knowledge and skill -



And yet this continues to be one of the most common assertions in this temple by those possessing such ranks. The most recent example of this is a call for "lay sermons" from outside the clergy ranks. "Lay" implying novice or inexperienced vs the "increased knowledge and expertise" of the clergy rank...

On rank -
So, in your opinion , what could be the right term ? I’m all ears now ! I didn’t and don’t ever mean to offend. Ever. If I can get it right I will. What term would be acceptable ? Any ideas ?

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10 May 2019 18:19 #338319 by V-Tog
The term ‘lay’ as in ‘layperson’ or ‘laity’ is used in the Christian church simply to mean ‘non-ordained’ or ‘non-Clergy’, and I would imagine that is the spirit in which Carlos intended it.
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10 May 2019 18:27 #338320 by Carlos.Martinez3
It is in that spirit - is there another term we can use ? I know people will find things to point and be angry about all day on their own but if I can minimize that on my end - I’m for it. Any ideas ?

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